Palestine and Israel

[pahoffm]

I think it enlightens many of us as to the naval blockade drama that unfolded some time ago.
If you remember, sometime ago, Israeli forces seized one or two Turkish boats heading for Gaza, claiming the boats may have been carrying missiles.
Well, we certainly have proof now that missiles were being secreted into Gaza, and have / are being used.


Actually, today I had the wonderful PD experience of listening to an world-recognised authority on Catholicism and Jesus.
She was sent to Australia by the Catholic Education Office, and I had the pleasure of hearing her on a number of issues relating to teaching students about Jesus Christ in today's world.
She was asked a question about Gaza today and she gave a wonderful explanation that had many similarities to my post of the 23rd, but went further.
I won't mention her name as that might bring her into scrutiny and attack, and I don't want to be held responsible.
I probably won't do justice to her words.

She, too, was a supporter to both sides of the conflict and initially, clearly stated that the Palestinians were being pressured to the point where there was little or no hope, other than violence. She was also a member of Palestinian peaceful-support groups, and has donated towards building desalination plants and solar energy generators in Palestine.
Palestine, Gaza, has no regular standing army and, therefore, cannot fight open battles, and relies on terrorist / guerilla-based fighting, including firing missiles from wherever it be, including mosques and playgrounds.

But, she also said that the Israelis had a right to defend themselves against attack by missiles.
Not only from missiles, but also from suicide bombers who detonate their bombs in Israeli pizza parlours and wedding celebrations. Most of you should remember these occurrences. The tunnels, and the recent interception of Hamas terrorist units using those tunnels to enter Israel prove this.

Innocents do get killed in warzones, making war is not an exact science.
We saw that with the accidental shooting down of MH17, last week.
We also saw the Israeli navy accidentally fire at 4 innocent Palestinians on a beach.

This conflict is not only happening between Gaza and Israel, and merely between Muslims and Jews.
Last week, the centuries-old Christian community in Mosel was expelled by Islamic extremists.
http://catholicleader.com.au/news/expulsion-of-christians-a-crime-against-humanity-mosul-bishop-says
http://www.rferl.org/content/iraq-mosul-christians-centuries-ended/25467941.html

For Christians, Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Christian communities increasing.
In every other country in the Middle East (Muslim countries), Christian communities are decreasing.
Whereas, in Europe and Australia, Muslim communities are made welcome and are thriving.

Last week, there was a protest against Israel in Sydney. There is another in Melbourne this week.
Protesters in Australia and around the world should not claim any similarity of Gaza to the Holocaust.
If Gaza was similar to the Holocaust, there would be no Palestinians.
The holocaust was a systemic extermination of all Jews in Europe during WW2.
Clearly, there is no systemic extermination of any Palestinians taking place in Gaza.

On negotiation, Israel certainly needs to improve these efforts with the Palestinians.
Israel was succeeding in negotiations with Fatah, and there was further hope if Fatah (West Bank) could dominate Hamas in Gaza, but that didn't happen.
Hamas is the controlling authority in Gaza, and its no.1 tenet is that all Jews / Israelis are monkeys and should be forced into and killed in the sea.
So, where does Israel begin to negotiate with a group that wants to see all Jews / Israelis exterminated?

In summary, neither side is in the right, and neither is in the wrong, and innocents on both sides are the true casualties.
She saw the only solution as the one presented by Jesus to all people: Love your neighbour as yourself. (Be prepared to forgive.) Mark 12:31
She repeated that the best way to support Palestine was to donate to organisations that were specific in their tenets to build infrastructure - water, electricity, hospitals - in Gaza.

On a final note, she related the thoughts of a friend that she had, who had been working on Middle East peace since 1948.
In his early days, he related to her that the glass was 'half full'.
Years later, he related that the glass was 'half empty'.
In recent days, he related to her that he wasn't sure if there was a glass any more.



The above post is how I understood her words.

 

[tigerman]

On negotiation, Israel certainly needs to improve these efforts with the Palestinians.
Israel was succeeding in negotiations with Fatah, and there was further hope if Fatah (West Bank) could dominate Hamas in Gaza, but that didn't happen.
Hamas is the controlling authority in Gaza, and its no.1 tenet is that all Jews / Israelis are monkeys and should be forced into and killed in the sea.
So, where does Israel begin to negotiate with a group that wants to see all Jews / Israelis exterminated?

Good posting Phantom.
Dialogue is the answer, that is how peace was found in Northern Ireland. It means that concessions need to be made from all parties.
I hope that one day peace can be found.

 

[Tommy H]

Fascinating reading Phantom. Thanks for sharing this. I had heard Iran were giving Hamas rockets as well. Not sure if true. Just something I had heard.

 

[gsta12]

Israel keeps saying it wants peace and a two state solution. But this is rubbish!

They are trying to negotiate on a two state solution, yet at the same time Israel continues to build ILEGAL settlements in the Occupied West Bank which is making it harder and harder to give the Palestinians their own country. It is like a friend and I deciding who should get which half or part of a Pizza and at the same time I am taking bites of this Pizza. It just doesn't work! Not only are these settlements illegal, the settlers who live there and are protected by the Israeli force, will attack and harass the Palestinians whose land they are living on. I have seen too many videos of Israeli settlers who admit they are there to drive the Palestinians out and to steal more land and who openly harass, both verbally and physically the Palestinians.. even children going to work! And the Israeli police/army just stand there and watch. If the arabs dare to fight back, they will be arrested and probably never seen again!

I have been to Hebron, and old town in the Westbank and walked through the old market and seen with my own two eyes the settlements above the markets and the nets that the Palestinians have put there to stop the rocks and rubbish that the settlers throw down at them! Not to mention that there are streets that I walked down in Hebron, where the Palestinians were not ALLOWED to walk down. The main street has been closed to them also!

Just today, Israel shelled a UN school being used by families as shelter. They have killed many (I think 16+ people) and injured others and there only response is that they blame Hamas and they say it was probably a Hamas rocket that fell short. How absurd! This is not the first time they have done this and not to mention the mosques and hospitals that they attack. They claim that Hamas hides their weapons there etc. etc. There has been no proof of that.. The only time weapons were found at a UN school, was at an abandoned one NOT used by civilians at the time. And even if Israel was right and that there were weapons there, Is that an excuse to bomb a hospital or a school?


Phanton you said that: "Innocents do get killed in warzones, making war is not an exact science.
We saw that with the accidental shooting down of MH17, last week.
We also saw the Israeli navy accidentally fire at 4 innocent Palestinians on a beach."

Do you REALLY believe that the Israeli Navy 'accidentally' killed those 4 children playing on the open beach? There is a photo and video of them running away from fire! Anyone could see that these were bodies of 8-14 year olds and not grown men. Let alone militants! Remember this is the largest and most high tech Army in the region and almost the world!

 

[K3]

I think it enlightens many of us as to the naval blockade drama that unfolded some time ago.
If you remember, sometime ago, Israeli forces seized one or two Turkish boats heading for Gaza, claiming the boats may have been carrying missiles.
Well, we certainly have proof now that missiles were being secreted into Gaza, and have / are being used.


<snip>
The above post is how I understood her words.

I think your post shows a very large leaning towards Israel on this Phantom and it would appear you haven't really looked at what is really going on terribly much.

 

[AngryAnt]

I think your post shows a very large leaning towards Israel on this Phantom and it would appear you haven't really looked at what is really going on terribly much.

Yeah, it's a shock isn't it.

Phantom thinks it's scandalous that Egypt and Iran supply Hamas with shitty rockets. In the meantime the USA is giving Israel $30 billion - yes $30 billion under its Foreign Military Funding scheme (ten year scheme from 2009-2018). Israel uses these funds to buy US military hardware.

And yes these weapons are currently being used by the IDF against Palestinian citizens.

 

[pahoffm]

Phanton you said that: "Innocents do get killed in warzones, making war is not an exact science.
We saw that with the accidental shooting down of MH17, last week.
We also saw the Israeli navy accidentally fire at 4 innocent Palestinians on a beach."

Please be careful. As I clearly stated in that post, those views belonged to another.

Actually, today I had the wonderful PD experience of listening to an world-recognised authority on Catholicism and Jesus.
She was sent to Australia by the Catholic Education Office, and I had the pleasure of hearing her on a number of issues relating to teaching students about Jesus Christ in today's world.
She was asked a question about Gaza today and she gave a wonderful explanation that had many similarities to my post of the 23rd, but went further.
I won't mention her name as that might bring her into scrutiny and attack, and I don't want to be held responsible.
I probably won't do justice to her words.

........

The above post is how I understood her words.

Phantom thinks it's scandalous that Egypt and Iran supply Hamas with ...... rockets.

Okay, so that's something I didn't know.

I feel for the Palestinian people too.
I understand why they fight,
And I can understand all the arguments levelled against Israel,

But, I have three questions,

If the Gaza Palestinians were so heavily blockaded by the Israeli's, how are they able to launch a seemingly endless supply of of rockets into Israeli territory?

Who are supplying the rockets?

How are these rockets getting into Gaza?

I asked the questions on the previous page because I didn't know the answers and sought some from anyone who did know.
Your answer appears very emphatic, confident and precise, so I will take it as such.
From your words, it is Egypt and Iran that are supplying these missiles.

Do Egypt and Iran manufacture these missiles or do they import them?

 

[poppa x]

In my very ignorant view of the middle east I think peace will only come when the overwhelming majority of Palestinians who want peace decide to stand up to Hamas and get rid of them. Then Israel MUST step in and give huge amounts of aid to Palestine for housing, infrastructure, industry, jobs , etc. In other words Israel must become a true friend of the Palestinian people once the Palestinians have disposed of Hamas.

2c.

 

[AngryAnt]

Please be careful. As I clearly stated in that post, those views belonged to another.

Okay, so that's something I didn't know.

I asked the questions on the previous page because I didn't know the answers and sought some from anyone who did know.
Your answer appears very emphatic, confident and precise, so I will take it as such.
From your words, it is Egypt and Iran that are supplying these missiles.

Do Egypt and Iran manufacture these missiles or do they import them?

Neither - read all about it dude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

This National Geo article http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/07/140721-gaza-strip-tunnels-israel-hamas-palestinians/ explains the history of the tunnels and their various uses for commerce, importing medicines, building materials, even livestock as Israel restricts available farming areas for Gazans for "security reasons".

Nice dodge of the issue of USD30 billion of US military aid to Israel though.

 

[AngryAnt]

In my very ignorant view of the middle east I think peace will only come when the overwhelming majority of Palestinians who want peace decide to stand up to Hamas and get rid of them. Then Israel MUST step in and give huge amounts of aid to Palestine for housing, infrastructure, industry, jobs , etc. In other words Israel must become a true friend of the Palestinian people once the Palestinians have disposed of Hamas.

2c.

Why would you want peace when a hostile power keeps encroaching on your ever dwindling land and resources, totally restricts your access to materials, foods, medicines, and the necessities of life.

Hamas are a bunch of violent arseholes but it's no surprise they exist and their militancy is supported. Throwing yourself on the mercy of Israel has not worked for Palestinians for the last 80 years, so I don't see why they would want to start now.

 

[pahoffm]

Why would you want peace when a hostile power keeps encroaching on your ever dwindling land and resources, totally restricts your access to materials, foods, medicines, and the necessities of life.

Hamas are a bunch of violent *smile*s but it's no surprise they exist and their militancy is supported. Throwing yourself on the mercy of Israel has not worked for Palestinians for the last 80 years, so I don't see why they would want to start now.

Hmmm, interesting!

I think the view above really encapsulates why peace is so hard to find.

 

[poppa x]

My view is based on my uninformed opinion that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians are sick of war and want peace, and the same applies to Israel.
It's the extremists on both sides (a small minority) who are getting in the way.
The Palestine people need to deal with Hamas.
And the Jews with their own extremists.

After 1,000 years trying something different may be the way to go.

2c.

 

[AngryAnt]

My view is based on my uninformed opinion that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians are sick of war and want peace, and the same applies to Israel.
It's the extremists on both sides (a small minority) who are getting in the way.
The Palestine people need to deal with Hamas.
And the Jews with their own extremists.

After 1,000 years trying something different may be the way to go.

2c.

Actually, Jewish/Christian/Muslim relations were reasonably amicable pre 1900 - it was really the rise of Zionism and the start of the exodus of Jews from Europe in the 1880s, culminating with the Holocaust in WWII that started mass Jewish emigration back to the Palestinian territories when tensions started to arise. This concided with the ascent of Arab nationalism in the late 19th century - the struggle for Arab independence from British and other colonial powers when sectarian violence started to emerge. This was crystallised by the creation of the modern day state of Israel and the mass migration of European and other Jews to the Middle East.

Prior to this, small numbers of Jews lived in the holy cities in relative harmony with Arab and Christian neighbours. The idea that Arabs and Jews have been in conflict for 1000 years is bunkum.

But sure, let's try something new.

Currently there are about 1.2 million Palestinians (Israeli Arabs) living in Israel. There are about 1.8 million Palestinians in the Gaza strip, and 2. 6 million Palestinians in the West Bank. Currently Israel is bombing the sh!t out of Gaza so prospects ain't real good for anyone there but that's another issue.

There are about several million Palestinian refugees living around the world. All these people have been "displaced" by Israeli occupation and encroachment on traditional Palestinian lands. This is the price the Palestinian people have paid for the existence of the state of Israel... well those that aren't dead of course.

"Something new" would be to create a new Palestinian state incorporating Gaza, the West Bank and some of present day Israel. Just as Israel allows Jews from all over the world to emigrate to Israel and live there even though they have absolutely no connection to the land - this new Palestinian state should also allow those several million Palestinians to return home - those that wish to, at least.

I'm sure if Israel made these undertakings and conceded the requisite available territory to allow the return of the several million Palestinians, a peace would be easily negotiated.

Or did you have something else in mind Poppa? Something on a smaller scale? Where Israel doesn't concede any territory perhaps? Screw all those Palestinian refugees living in Syria, Jordan, Egypt and all over the world? I mean, surely those Palestinians should just roll over, dump Hamas, and throw themselves on the mercy of Israel. I'm sure Israel will treat them absolutely fairly. It's worked so well for Palestinians since 1945.

 

[pahoffm]

Agree with nearly everything you say there Antman, except for some small omissions. I presume these were unintentional on your part.

In 1967, when Israel defeated the then Trans-Jordan and occupied the West Bank, there was a wave of Palestinian refugees into Jordan and Egypt.
By the mid-1970s, both Jordan and Egypt had lost their patience with these Palestinian refugees and expelled them from their countries into the then Christian-dominated Lebanon. This influx of Palestinians into Lebanon and the instability it created is globally agreed as the catalyst that begun the long and bloody Lebanese Civil War that even Israel got dragged into some years later. If the current Lebanese Christian diaspora (many living in Australia) were counted, the Christians would still be the majority in Lebanon, but they are not.

The point is that both Egypt and Jordan treated the Palestinians far worse than Israel ever did. Jordan and Egypt expelled the Palestinians, whereas Israel never did.
Israel has always had a policy of coexistence with Palestinians, as it has with other Arab groups, such as the Druze.

Further, when Israel won both the West Bank and Gaza in an "open" war, the 1967 Six Day War, Israel occupied both areas and these became Israeli occupied territory.
Israel gave up both these territories in the 1993, in a gesture to create long term peace in the region, in an agreement with Yasser Arafat.
In fact, the Israeli army forcably removed all the Jewish settlers from these parts. Yitzhak Rabin paid for these concessions with his life, assassinated by Jewish extremists.
For these land concessions, the Palestinians repaid the Israelis with the 2nd intifada (resistance), rather than peace.
Arab extremists, as suicide bombers, would detonate themselves in Israeli schools, shopping areas, food bars and weddings.
In response the Israeli's built great concrete walls to keep the Palestinians out.
In response, the Palestinians began firing rockets into Israel.
Israel retaliate with their incursions.
And so the cycle continues.

Israel carries a very bitter taste from its territory concessions of 1993.
Then it had a signed agreement with Yasser Arafat, recognising the PLO and the Palestinian National Authority, giving the Palestinians custody of both Gaza and the West Bank.

Will further land concessions to the Palestinians guarantee lasting peace?
I have no answer to this.
Do you?

I'm all for a fully sovereign Palestinian state.
Palestinians must become fully responsible for war and peace.
Full state sovereignty allows this.
Violence, after this point, then becomes an official act of war.

Hopefully a long term solution can be found for all of their sakes.

 

[poppa x]

Or did you have something else in mind Poppa? Something on a smaller scale? Where Israel doesn't concede any territory perhaps? Screw all those Palestinian refugees living in Syria, Jordan, Egypt and all over the world? I mean, surely those Palestinians should just roll over, dump Hamas, and throw themselves on the mercy of Israel. I'm sure Israel will treat them absolutely fairly. It's worked so well for Palestinians since 1945.

No I have no agenda.
What you're suggesting seems reasonable.
Both Israel and Palestine must make concessions.
But as I said, IMO it's the extremists on both sides that are geting in the way of what the majority wants.

 

[AngryAnt]

Agree with nearly everything you say there Antman, except for some small omissions. I presume these were unintentional on your part.

Dude, it's not easy to summarise 150 years of history (and beyond) in a few paragraphs. By necessity it's a drastic oversimplification of real events - but I make no apology :hihi

In 1967, when Israel defeated the then Trans-Jordan and occupied the West Bank, there was a wave of Palestinian refugees into Jordan and Egypt.
By the mid-1970s, both Jordan and Egypt had lost their patience with these Palestinian refugees and expelled them from their countries into the then Christian-dominated Lebanon. This influx of Palestinians into Lebanon and the instability it created is globally agreed as the catalyst that begun the long and bloody Lebanese Civil War that even Israel got dragged into some years later. If the current Lebanese Christian diaspora (many living in Australia) were counted, the Christians would still be the majority in Lebanon, but they are not.

So why were there a wave of refugees into Jordan and Egypt if Israel were such benevolent rulers?

The point is that both Egypt and Jordan treated the Palestinians far worse than Israel ever did. Jordan and Egypt expelled the Palestinians, whereas Israel never did.
Israel has always had a policy of coexistence with Palestinians, as it has with other Arab groups, such as the Druze.

A policy of coexistence which includes taking their land and shrinking their territories until the present. You say Israel treated the Palestinians better than Jordan or Egypt ever did - except of course Israel now exists where Palestine was. It's coexistence on Israel's terms and dictated by force. Comply and "coexist", leave, or face the IDF.

Further, when Israel won both the West Bank and Gaza in an "open" war, the 1967 Six Day War, Israel occupied both areas and these became Israeli occupied territory.
Israel gave up both these territories in the 1993, in a gesture to create long term peace in the region, in an agreement with Yasser Arafat.
In fact, the Israeli army forcably removed all the Jewish settlers from these parts. Yitzhak Rabin paid for these concessions with his life, assassinated by Jewish extremists.
For these land concessions, the Palestinians repaid the Israelis with the 2nd intifada (resistance), rather than peace.
Arab extremists, as suicide bombers, would detonate themselves in Israeli schools, shopping areas, food bars and weddings.
In response the Israeli's built great concrete walls to keep the Palestinians out.
In response, the Palestinians began firing rockets into Israel.
Israel retaliate with their incursions.
And so the cycle continues.

This is a fair summation. Why did Jewish extremists assassinate Rabin though? There is a strong current of extremism in Israel which tacitly supports the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank.

Israel carries a very bitter taste from its territory concessions of 1993.
Then it had a signed agreement with Yasser Arafat, recognising the PLO and the Palestinian National Authority, giving the Palestinians custody of both Gaza and the West Bank.

Palestinians carry a very bitter taste about the whole of the 20th century and until the present day.

Will further land concessions to the Palestinians guarantee lasting peace?
I have no answer to this.
Do you?

I doubt it - peoples who coexisted peacefully in the 19th century are now divided by a century of land grabs, bombings, oppression, civil war, manipulation by external forces such as the US and other Middle Eastern states.

I'm all for a fully sovereign Palestinian state.
Palestinians must become fully responsible for war and peace.
Full state sovereignty allows this.
Violence, after this point, then becomes an official act of war.

Hopefully a long term solution can be found for all of their sakes.

Agree. But to argue that Palestinians should renounce violence and throw themselves on the mercy of Israel - a state that has repressed them economically, militarily and socially for the last 70 years is simply naive.

 

[tigergollywog]

interesting summation antman. I dont know much about the conflict. I never knew there were any palestinians living in israel.

you ay be able to shed some light on something I dont get.

If a heap of new zealanders parked their campervans on my joint and 'settled', my kids wouldnt have to chuck rocks at them, Id just ring immigration and say "theres a heap of kiwis living illegally on my joint'.

How come it doesnt work like that in palestine.

I guess what im alluding to is my, possibly simplistic, belief that its the fundamentalist israeli settlers who push into palestinan turf that are the cause of most of the conflict.

why arent there Palestinian immigration officials (they could be UN-led) who check to see if the israelis have a residency visa for Palestine, and lock 'em p and deport them when they dont?

 

[AngryAnt]

interesting summation antman. I dont know much about the conflict. I never knew there were any palestinians living in israel.

you ay be able to shed some light on something I dont get.

If a heap of new zealanders parked their campervans on my joint and 'settled', my kids wouldnt have to chuck rocks at them, Id just ring immigration and say "theres a heap of kiwis living illegally on my joint'.

How come it doesnt work like that in palestine.

I guess what im alluding to is my, possibly simplistic, belief that its the fundamentalist israeli settlers who push into palestinan turf that are the cause of most of the conflict.

why arent there Palestinian immigration officials (they could be UN-led) who check to see if the israelis have a residency visa for Palestine, and lock 'em p and deport them when they dont?

Simple answer - the Israelis have a high tech, well equipped, professional standing army funded by the USA and the Palestinians don't. If the Israeli government chooses to allow illegal Jewish settlement of Palestinian territories, there isn't a whole lot the Palestinians can do about it.

Of course the history of all this is very complex. Before the formation of modern Israel, there was Mandatory Palestine, administered by the British. At the same time there was a growing Zionist movement and Arab nationalism. So you had the Zionists and the Arabs fighting the Brits - and also each other. In modern day Israel there have been a number of wars where territory changed hands from one side to another. It's not as simple as saying "one time this was Palestinian land".

Now I'm not saying the Arabs are blameless, clearly they aren't. They have often been the aggressor and have captured territory and later conceded it. What should happen to these contested territories?

 

[Tommy H]

I see on tonights news the Israelies have blown up the one and only power plant supplying power to the Palestine people.

 

[mld]

I suppose I should feel bad for wanting to make an emissions reduction joke there. Bad mld.