Palestine and Israel | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Palestine and Israel

Status
Not open for further replies.
Azza said:
I always thought those in the west expecting liberal democracies to surface out of the Arab spring were extremely naive.

Yes, same here.

Personally, Gadaffi and Mubarak proves themselves good solid citizens in the middle age, and their passing will be missed.

Ordinary citizens expected liberal democracies.
Those with a little more savvy, were aware that arms export sales are important in declining economies.
 
Azza said:
I always thought those in the west expecting liberal democracies to surface out of the Arab spring were extremely naive.

Liberal democracies take a long time to get up to speed. They require strong institutions, checks and balances and democratic political culture to work reasonably well. But for this to happen you need to overthrow the old orders to start with.

When a democracy does evolve, you can't always assume the winners of the election will be pro-West or pro-Israel either.

Phantom's comment about Gadaffi and Mubarak being good citizens is one of his more absurd ones. The old days of the US propping up local West friendly dictatorships are over - the Arab Spring itself proved this is unsustainable. Not to mention if you were one of those groups that had to be suppressed by Gaddafi and Mubarak through arrest, torture and execution. But hey, if all you care about is the "security" of Israel and the Middle East, then oppression of the civilian populations in the Arab states is the least of your concerns.
 
antman said:
Liberal democracies take a long time to get up to speed. They require strong institutions, checks and balances and democratic political culture to work reasonably well. But for this to happen you need to overthrow the old orders to start with.

When a democracy does evolve, you can't always assume the winners of the election will be pro-West or pro-Israel either.

Assuming one does. The totalitarian states of the Arab Spring all began in revolution. Who's to say the same won't happen again? Even in countries with democratic traditions, in power vacuums it's the fanatics who tend to seize control rather than moderates.
 
Azza said:
Assuming one does. The totalitarian states of the Arab Spring all began in revolution. Who's to say the same won't happen again? Even in countries with democratic traditions, in power vacuums it's the fanatics who tend to seize control rather than moderates.

That's true and is also a possibility. However, we've already seen democratic elections in a number of the Arab Spring states - and the Arab Spring movements have all had a strongly democratic political philosophy so I'd also argue that there's been a big change in popular consciousness - social media and more educated populations have meant the chance of one ruling elite being simply replaced by the next is much smaller.

The other important changing dynamic is that Israel can no longer claim to be the "only democratic state" in the Middle East, a key touchstone for its lobbying efforts in the US.
 
antman said:
That's true and is also a possibility. However, we've already seen democratic elections in a number of the Arab Spring states - and the Arab Spring movements have all had a strongly democratic political philosophy so I'd also argue that there's been a big change in popular consciousness - social media and more educated populations have meant the chance of one ruling elite being simply replaced by the next is much smaller.

I hope you’re right, and of course it’s likely to vary in different countries. It’ll be an interesting demonstration of the impact of the net in politics.

I saw a doco last night that claimed that anonymous were involved in the Tunisian uprising, helping protect the revolutionaries’ communications from government security forces. It’s also been reported that anonymous have been doing DDoS attacks on Israel since it threatened to cut Gazan communications.

Fascinating times.
 
Azza said:
I hope you’re right, and of course it’s likely to vary in different countries. It’ll be an interesting demonstration of the impact of the net in politics.

I saw a doco last night that claimed that anonymous were involved in the Tunisian uprising, helping protect the revolutionaries’ communications from government security forces. It’s also been reported that anonymous have been doing DDoS attacks on Israel since it threatened to cut Gazan communications.

Fascinating times.

Who is "anonymous" Azza? please pm if it's "top secret"
 
willo said:
Who is "anonymous" Azza? please pm if it's "top secret"

Good question! Sorry to direct to a wiki page, but it's a bit beyond me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(group)
 
Azza said:
Good question! Sorry to direct to a wiki page, but it's a bit beyond me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(group)

Thanks for the link, that explains it, I thought I missed something earlier and scrolled back through.
Interesting..
 
antman said:
That's true and is also a possibility. However, we've already seen democratic elections in a number of the Arab Spring states - and the Arab Spring movements have all had a strongly democratic political philosophy so I'd also argue that there's been a big change in popular consciousness - social media and more educated populations have meant the chance of one ruling elite being simply replaced by the next is much smaller.

The other important changing dynamic is that Israel can no longer claim to be the "only democratic state" in the Middle East, a key touchstone for its lobbying efforts in the US.

I wonder if our bent for commentary on everything in "the West" distorts our idea of how change happens? We look for the narrative (forgive me just finished reading "The Black Swan") and fill the vacuum of information with talk and speculation. Would you say that the nature of politics and the way it interracts with the citizenry in the Middle East is far too dynamical for a white anglo-celt to really get his head around?
 
tigersnake said:
This sums it up, unfortunately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

Thanks for sharing that, tigersnake – great clip - that’ll be my son’s history lesson for tonight.

This german version starts off full of hope and optimism ……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNNR8UX7oKk&feature=related
 
tigersnake said:
This sums it up, unfortunately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

That is an excellent youtube.

Well done!
 
KnightersRevenge said:
I wonder if our bent for commentary on everything in "the West" distorts our idea of how change happens? We look for the narrative (forgive me just finished reading "The Black Swan") and fill the vacuum of information with talk and speculation. Would you say that the nature of politics and the way it interracts with the citizenry in the Middle East is far too dynamical for a white anglo-celt to really get his head around?
How'd you find the book?
 
KnightersRevenge said:
I wonder if our bent for commentary on everything in "the West" distorts our idea of how change happens? We look for the narrative (forgive me just finished reading "The Black Swan") and fill the vacuum of information with talk and speculation. Would you say that the nature of politics and the way it interracts with the citizenry in the Middle East is far too dynamical for a white anglo-celt to really get his head around?

I think so.

Political commentary from European news services have likened the recent Arab revolutions to those of the broader 19th century revolutions (1789-1917) that swept across Europe, expecting European-like democracies to spring out of these.

In many ways, on a micro level, these revolutions have paralleled, in that middle class revolution has been immediately followed by the 'sans-culotte' and terrors have followed, before reactionary counter-revolutions overcome, then after many years democracy may follow. Although, with many European revolutions, liberal democracy was not the always the end result.

Europeans might have expected liberal democratic ideas to come out of the universities that many of the Arab middle class have sprung from.
However, the actual case appears that middle class students, especially those that have graduated from the Alexandria universities over the last decade, have been instilled with something quite different.

This based on the recent Egyptian election, where the Shariah oriented Salafist Al-Nour Party secured 27% of the vote and 111 of the 127 Islamist Bloc seats. The Al-Nour Party emanated from the Alexandria universities.

It would be a generalisation to infer that all university students are middle class. Many at the Alexandria universities would be from the poor too, especially where religious based scholarships are provided.

This is not unlike the same in Israel, where it would be an equally poor generalisation to say that all Israeli university students are middle class. Many, from poor backgrounds, are provided religious scholarship too religious universities or colleges and merely learn fundamentalist Judaism, to most secular Jewish chagrin.
The Israeli government, too, cowers to its Jewish fundamentalist electorate.

Yes, sorry about the Gaddafi & Mubarak throw away line.
It is from a European perspective.
And, let us remember, that Israel is a European creation, both from a British perspective, and that the original Israelis were refugee Europeans given a new homeland by other Europeans and, of course, the U.N.
 
Not forgetting that the likes of Al Qaeda have used the net to spread Islamic fundamentalism, so it's not necessarily a conduit toward liberal democracy.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
I wonder if our bent for commentary on everything in "the West" distorts our idea of how change happens? We look for the narrative (forgive me just finished reading "The Black Swan") and fill the vacuum of information with talk and speculation. Would you say that the nature of politics and the way it interracts with the citizenry in the Middle East is far too dynamical for a white anglo-celt to really get his head around?

Yes.
 
Personally, I have fond memories of the Medical University of Alexandria.

It was back in 1983, and I had just crossed over from Eilat into the Sinai. I came across a really wonderful bunch of Egyptiam medical students who were travelling in the same bus as me to Sharm El Shech. We became very friendly and I was invited back to stay in the home of one of the students.

I have very fond memories of Alexandria.

Also, of Cairo and spending endless evenings at cafes ordering Shisha (water-pipe), Chick-chak (backgammon) & cafe (coffee).

Further, of Luxor & Karnack, for its temples and Valley of the Kings.

I compare,
the Arabic, Salaam - Alekum, with
the Hebrew, Shalom - Alechem.

Nearly the same words, same meaning, physically very similar peoples with a common ancestor,
yet miles apart in Organised Religion.

My conclusion, it is merely Organised Religion of all types that separates, isolates and conflicts people.

Protestantism v Catholicism
Muslim v Christianity
Muslim v Hinduism
Muslim v Judaism
Muslim v Buddhism
Catholicism v Judaism
Confucism v Buddhism
Have I missed anyone?

Personally, I seem to be moving further towards the pre-Organised Religion of 'Shamanism' that exists/ed in Aboriginal Australia, Northern Asia, and on the American continent pre-Columbus.
Although, I do have a definite leaning towards Buddhism.

At least conflict in Shamanism was based more on 'tribe v tribe', not un-akin to Aussie Rules.
Sorry, another throw away line.
 
Azza said:
Not forgetting that the likes of Al Qaeda have used the net to spread Islamic fundamentalism, so it's not necessarily a conduit toward liberal democracy.

Right - but at least the fundamentalists don't control the medium of communication, so there is room for opposing views.
 
Also, that is why I like SBS and Al Jazeera news services, because I can get independent or opposing views.
 
Phantom said:
Gadaffi and Mubarak proves themselves good solid citizens in the middle age,

as in they thought we were in the Middle Ages?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.