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Palestine and Israel

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Re: Not Good News From Israel

War crimes charges mount against Israel
Clancy Chassay and Julian Borger
March 25, 2009

http://www.theage.com.au/world/war-crimes-charges-mount-against-israel-20090324-98vl.html?page=-1

AN INVESTIGATION by The Guardian has compiled detailed evidence of alleged war crimes by Israel during the 23-day offensive in the Gaza Strip earlier this year, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields and the targeting of medics and hospitals.

The month-long inquiry also obtained evidence of civilians being hit by fire from unmanned drone aircraft said to be so accurate that their operators can tell the colour of the clothes worn by a target.

The testimonies form the basis of three Guardian films that add weight to calls this week for a full inquiry into the events surrounding Operation Cast Lead. The Israeli operation was aimed at Hamas but left about 1400 Palestinians dead, including up to 300 children.

The Israel Defence Forces refused to respond directly to the allegations against its troops, but issued statements denying the charges and insisting that international law had been observed.

The latest disclosures follow soldiers' evidence published in the Israeli press about the killing of Palestinian civilians and complaints by soldiers involved in the military operation that the rules of engagement were lax.

Amnesty International has said Hamas should be investigated for executing at least two dozen Palestinian men in an apparent bout of score-settling with rivals and alleged collaborators while Operation Cast Lead was under way.

Human rights groups say the vast majority of offences were committed by Israel, and that the Gaza offensive was a disproportionate response to Hamas rocket attacks. Since 2002, 21 Israelis have died from Hamas rockets fired out of Gaza. During Operation Cast Lead, three Israeli civilians died, six Israeli soldiers were killed by Palestinian fire and four were killed by friendly fire.

"Only an investigation mandated by the UN Security Council can ensure Israel's co-operation, and it's the only body that can secure some kind of prosecution," said Amnesty's Donatella Rovera, who spent two weeks in Gaza investigating war crimes allegations. "Without a proper investigation there is no deterrent. The message remains the same: 'It's OK to do these things, there won't be any real consequences.' "

Some of The Guardian's most dramatic testimony came from three teenage brothers in the Attar family. They describe how they were taken from home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of Israeli tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing, and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them.

Medics and ambulance drivers said they were targeted when they tended the wounded. Sixteen were killed. According to the World Health Organisation, more than half Gaza's 27 hospitals and 44 clinics were damaged by Israeli bombs.

In a report released yesterday, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel said there was "certainty" that Israel violated international humanitarian law during the war, with attacks on medics, damage to medical buildings, indiscriminate attacks on civilians and delays in medical treatment for the injured.

"We have noticed a stark decline in IDF morals concerning the Palestinian population of Gaza, which in reality amounts to a contempt for Palestinian lives," said Dani Filc, chairman of Physicians for Human Rights-Israel.

The Guardian gathered testimony on missile attacks by Israeli drones against clearly distinguishable civilian targets. In one case a family of six were killed when a missile hit the courtyard of their house. Israel has not admitted using drones but experts say their optical equipment is good enough to identify individual items of clothing worn by targets.

The Geneva Conventions and customary law make it clear that medical workers and hospitals are not legitimate targets in warfare and forbid the use of involuntary human shields.

Lawyers say the use of armed drones in conflict should be necessary and proportionate.

The Israeli military issued a statement responding to the claims. "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law."

The IDF said an investigation was under way into allegations that hospitals were targeted. It said in a statement that Israeli soldiers were under standing orders to avoid harming medics, but added: "However, in light of the difficult reality of warfare in the Gaza Strip carried out in urban and densely populated areas, medics who operate in the area take the risk upon themselves."

The use of human shields was outlawed by Israel's Supreme Court in 2005 after a string of incidents. The IDF said only Hamas used human shields by launching attacks from civilian areas.

An Israeli embassy spokesman said any allegations were suspect because of Hamas pressure on witnesses.

But the accounts gathered by The Guardian are supported by the findings of human rights organisations and soldiers' testimony published in Israel.

An IDF squad leader is quoted in the daily newspaper Haaretz as saying his soldiers interpreted the rules to mean "We should kill everyone there (in the centre of Gaza). Everyone there is a terrorist."

GUARDIAN

No doubt, Israel is fast ruining its international reputation.

Although we cannot excuse it, our expectations of Hamas are lower.

We expect Israel to act better and therefore it is a greater disappointment.

To this aspect I say, "Shame israel shame."
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

im with the army on this one. if your in a war zone you are a target.theres only one way to fight a war and thats all out.

if the opposition sits in among his own civilians and has the ability to hurt you im afraid to say the civilians are going to cop it as well.
in all wars some of the first casualties is always humaneness and civilians. as isaid its the nature of the beast.
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Everyone is silent now....don't hear the anti-Israel posters out there lampooning this bloke:

Iranian president triggers racism conference walkout
An international conference on racism fell into disarray yesterday as Iran's president launched a verbal onslaught against Israel, triggering a mass walkout and a furious rebuke from the head of the UN.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/iranian-president-triggers-racism-conference-walkout-20090421-acww.html
 
Re: Not Good News From Israel

Liverpool said:
Everyone is silent now....don't hear the anti-Israel posters out there lampooning this bloke:

Iranian president triggers racism conference walkout
An international conference on racism fell into disarray yesterday as Iran's president launched a verbal onslaught against Israel, triggering a mass walkout and a furious rebuke from the head of the UN.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/iranian-president-triggers-racism-conference-walkout-20090421-acww.html

hard to lampoon the only guy in the world who makes Kim Il Joon (?) look credible. This guy is their version of our dear Pauline, and deserves similar respect.
 
Israel blows up the Hamas leader and things could get ugly real quick. Timing is interesting. "hello Barrack, its Ben" "hiya ben, what can I do for you?" "Well i want to blow the *smile* out of the hamas boss in downtown gaza""Sure, thats fine ben, but can you wait a week?""Sure". Whats the solution? I reckon the Israeli settlers who bulldoze 2000 year old palestinian olive groves to put in a pool are the problem. Plenty of regular Israelis think so to IMO.
 
Sometimes (usually?) there's no absolute right or wrong on either side, just a massive problem.
 
Hamas leader killed....Gaza strip attacked...why?

The IDF said its actions were part of a wider Israeli operation against militant groups and weapon sites in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, and were prompted by a wave of rocket attacks against Israel
http://www.theage.com.au/world/war-fears-as-israel-kills-hamas-commander-20121115-29d9n.html

Maybe if Hamas stopped with the indiscrimate rocket attacks that randomly kill anyone then maybe their leader might still be alive....just a thought...
 
Liverpool said:
Hamas leader killed....Gaza strip attacked...why?

The IDF said its actions were part of a wider Israeli operation against militant groups and weapon sites in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, and were prompted by a wave of rocket attacks against Israel
http://www.theage.com.au/world/war-fears-as-israel-kills-hamas-commander-20121115-29d9n.html

Maybe if Hamas stopped with the indiscrimate rocket attacks that randomly kill anyone then maybe their leader might still be alive....just a thought...

How did they get elected?
 
Liverpool said:
Hamas leader killed....Gaza strip attacked...why?

The IDF said its actions were part of a wider Israeli operation against militant groups and weapon sites in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, and were prompted by a wave of rocket attacks against Israel
http://www.theage.com.au/world/war-fears-as-israel-kills-hamas-commander-20121115-29d9n.html

Maybe if Hamas stopped with the indiscrimate rocket attacks that randomly kill anyone then maybe their leader might still be alive....just a thought...

you forgot to include this quote about the effects of the israeli missiles:
Gaza’s health ministry says 10 civilians have been killed, including two young children – an 11-month-old and a six-year-old – while at least 45 people have been wounded, 10 of them in critical condition.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/war-fears-as-israel-kills-hamas-commander-20121115-29d9n.html

im not suggesting either side is right, more likely they are both wrong.
 
antman said:
This x1000,000

Both right too.

If I was a Palestinian I wouldn't appreciate the Zionist insistence on re-occupying my land after a thousand year absence, and the UN's decision to ratify it.

If I were an Israeli I wouldn't appreciate the Palestinian refusal to accept the UN partition decision, and constant Arab nation attempts to wipe-out my country.
 
Azza said:
Both right too.

If I was a Palestinian I wouldn't appreciate the Zionist insistence on re-occupying my land after a thousand year absence, and the UN's decision to ratify it.

If I were an Israeli I wouldn't appreciate the Palestinian refusal to accept the UN partition decision, and constant Arab nation attempts to wipe-out my country.

yeah pretty much.

The israeli settlers who keep pushing into the west bank are like Pauline Hanson on steroids. Even the regular Israelis hate 'em. This would be like Collingwood not being content with playing home games at the G, but wanting to train at Punt Road and then chuck all our premiership cups in the tip and put their premiership trophies in our trophy cabinet.

The poor regular Israelis have every single neighbour want to wipe them off the face of the earth. It'd be surprising if they didnt have a seige mentality. Itd would be a bit like Indonesia, PNG, NZ, Antartica, New Caledonia and Tasmania ALL hating Aussies and lobbing a bomb on us every chance they get.

These blokes have been bluein' for a couple of thousand years and probably will until the end of time. I just hope that end of time doesnt come after some extremist Israeli Nukes the *smile* out of Gaza and then every Arab on the planet tearing the israelis limb from limb and then America nuking every Arab nation on the planet and then China nuking America and Australia and then the Tasmanians riding to China and punching the *smile* out of them and so on.
 
tigergollywog said:
yeah pretty much.

The israeli settlers who keep pushing into the west bank are like Pauline Hanson on steroids. Even the regular Israelis hate 'em. This would be like Collingwood not being content with playing home games at the G, but wanting to train at Punt Road and then chuck all our premiership cups in the tip and put their premiership trophies in our trophy cabinet.

The poor regular Israelis have every single neighbour want to wipe them off the face of the earth. It'd be surprising if they didnt have a seige mentality. Itd would be a bit like Indonesia, PNG, NZ, Antartica, New Caledonia and Tasmania ALL hating Aussies and lobbing a bomb on us every chance they get.

These blokes have been bluein' for a couple of thousand years and probably will until the end of time. I just hope that end of time doesnt come after some extremist Israeli Nukes the sh!t out of Gaza and then every Arab on the planet tearing the israelis limb from limb and then America nuking every Arab nation on the planet and then China nuking America and Australia and then the Tasmanians riding to China and punching the sh!t out of them and so on.

All for imaginary lines drawn on a map. We are genetically more similar to each than we are different. Race, creed, nationality, religion are but constructs of our statistically, anomalously oversized brains. A naughty little lump of poorly understood grey-white goo, capable of great insight but equally devious viciousness.
 
According to wiki, from jan-oct 2012 Israel has had over 800 rocket delivered invitations to party from Gaza. Assuming that each volley of rockets requires 2 thumbs up from Gaza authorities, Israel finally turning up with a platter of gunpowder and shrapnel must have come as quite a relief. No shows are always tricky to deal with.

Monumental imbeciles on one side and god bothering Yiddish crazies on the other. Imagine being sane in that region – like living in ‘The Walking Crazies’.
 
glantone said:
Assuming that each volley of rockets requires 2 thumbs up from Gaza authorities

I'm not sure that this is necessarily correct. Gazan authorities may not have all that much control over their local ultra crazies. Israel's attacks won't have improved any control they do have.

glantone said:
god bothering Yiddish crazies on the other.

Indeed. How does a democracy deal with such fanatical pressure groups, particularly one under continual rocket attack?

It's all very well urging the governments of the 2 sides to show restraint, but how the hell do they answer to their own unstable constituencies?

As you say, God help the moderates - in all likelihood the majority on both sides.
 
glantone said:
According to wiki, from jan-oct 2012 Israel has had over 800 rocket delivered invitations to party from Gaza. Assuming that each volley of rockets requires 2 thumbs up from Gaza authorities, Israel finally turning up with a platter of gunpowder and shrapnel must have come as quite a relief. No shows are always tricky to deal with.

Monumental imbeciles on one side and god bothering Yiddish crazies on the other. Imagine being sane in that region – like living in ‘The Walking Crazies’.

What are the rockets made of coathangers and blu-tack? 800 rockets but a quite a small list of casualties (as a pacifist I don't accept any but it makes me wonder about the actual tech). Israel responds and in a afternoon takes many more lives.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
What are the rockets made of coathangers and blu-tack? 800 rockets but a quite a small list of casualties (as a pacifist I don't accept any but it makes me wonder about the actual tech). Israel responds and in a afternoon takes many more lives.

The technology of the Palestinian rockets has actually improved over the years.
But there is the rumour that the European manufactured missiles, supplied through Iran and Saudi Arabia to the Palestinians, are flawed in manufacture.
However, the anti-missile defence systems of the Israeli's are cutting edge.
Nearly all the rockets are being intercepted in the air.

I wonder how Islam would react if one of these rockets hit the Qubbat as-Sakra (Dome of the Rock), but that's clearly not the aim of the Gaza insurgents.

In the greater context of Arab politics, the group to watch in this is the Salafist Al Nour Party, whose level of Sha'arian fundamentalism exceeds anything prior, including Al Queda, especially since they have gained significant representation in the chaotic Egyptian parliament.

The Salafist Al Nour Party makes the Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah look like democratic liberals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nour_Party

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15899539

But both these links are a bit dated, given the last year in Arab politics.
 
Phantom said:
In the greater context of Arab politics, the group to watch in this is the Salafist Al Nour Party, whose level of Sha'arian fundamentalism exceeds anything prior, including Al Queda, especially since they have gained significant representation in the chaotic Egyptian parliament.

I always thought those in the west expecting liberal democracies to surface out of the Arab spring were extremely naive.
 
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