-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Palestine and Israel
- Thread starter the next big thing
- Start date
- Status
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Came across a excellent radio debate on Late Night Live last night.
Philip Adams was interviewing 3 prominent Islamic spokespersons.
Joost Hiltermann
Deputy Director of the Middle East and North Africa Program at the International Crisis Group.
Dr Khaled Hroub
Director of Cambridge Arab Media Project at the Centre of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies at the University of Cambridge.
Nadim Shehadi
Associate Fellow in the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Chatham House in London.
In it, they all seemed to reiterate that the Gaza conflict was one primarily between Arabs and that Israel was only an innocent party that became involved by merely being a likely target. The conflict is between Hamas & Fatah and that Hamas was deliberately attempting to draw in Israel so as to draw more attention and popularity to its cause.
One commentator likened it to a a very 2nd class boxing challenger trying to get a bout with Mike Tyson. Basically the challenger knows that they'll get thrashed but in doing so they gain the notoriety of becoming the no.2, or no.1 challenger, above all other challengers.
In Gaza's case, if Hamas successfully pick a fight with Israel, regardless of how badly Hamas get mauled, Hamas succeeds in becoming the no.1 challenger, over Fatah, in Gaza.
One commentator, could have been the same one, said that it was exactly the same scenario as on the Lebanese border two years ago. Hezbollah had a conflict with the Lebanese government. It wanted to raise its notoriey. It did so by picking a fight with Israel and consequently proving itself to be the no.1 challenger in Lebanon.
All of them made the clear point that the West & UN should not deal with Hamas until Hamas are prepared to make peaceful co-existance their primary aim. The West & UN should talk to Hamas to try to persuade them to seek peace, but they should not deal with Hamas until Hamas makes peace their primary aim.
All agreed that Israel was in a Catch22 situation, that is:
1. Endure the unprovoked rocket attacks with the corresponding loss of Israeli civilian life so as not to lend Hamas any further notoriety.
2. Retaliate to unprovoked attacks and build Hamas's notoriety.
For those that wish to listen, and it is extremely interesting:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2009/2475533.htm
For me, it provided a fresh perspective.
Came across a excellent radio debate on Late Night Live last night.
Philip Adams was interviewing 3 prominent Islamic spokespersons.
Joost Hiltermann
Deputy Director of the Middle East and North Africa Program at the International Crisis Group.
Dr Khaled Hroub
Director of Cambridge Arab Media Project at the Centre of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies at the University of Cambridge.
Nadim Shehadi
Associate Fellow in the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Chatham House in London.
In it, they all seemed to reiterate that the Gaza conflict was one primarily between Arabs and that Israel was only an innocent party that became involved by merely being a likely target. The conflict is between Hamas & Fatah and that Hamas was deliberately attempting to draw in Israel so as to draw more attention and popularity to its cause.
One commentator likened it to a a very 2nd class boxing challenger trying to get a bout with Mike Tyson. Basically the challenger knows that they'll get thrashed but in doing so they gain the notoriety of becoming the no.2, or no.1 challenger, above all other challengers.
In Gaza's case, if Hamas successfully pick a fight with Israel, regardless of how badly Hamas get mauled, Hamas succeeds in becoming the no.1 challenger, over Fatah, in Gaza.
One commentator, could have been the same one, said that it was exactly the same scenario as on the Lebanese border two years ago. Hezbollah had a conflict with the Lebanese government. It wanted to raise its notoriey. It did so by picking a fight with Israel and consequently proving itself to be the no.1 challenger in Lebanon.
All of them made the clear point that the West & UN should not deal with Hamas until Hamas are prepared to make peaceful co-existance their primary aim. The West & UN should talk to Hamas to try to persuade them to seek peace, but they should not deal with Hamas until Hamas makes peace their primary aim.
All agreed that Israel was in a Catch22 situation, that is:
1. Endure the unprovoked rocket attacks with the corresponding loss of Israeli civilian life so as not to lend Hamas any further notoriety.
2. Retaliate to unprovoked attacks and build Hamas's notoriety.
For those that wish to listen, and it is extremely interesting:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2009/2475533.htm
For me, it provided a fresh perspective.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Turgid! ..... now there's a word worth including in my next insult.
Thanks antman!
Never listened to or read ‘the Bolta’ but if he’s as smart as one Philip Adams that would make a pleasant surprise for someone from the right.
Anyone know if he has some classic signature conservative dress code to challenge Philip Adams’ dashingly turgid left wing black turtle neck pullover with matching cap (yikes!!!)?
Turgid! ..... now there's a word worth including in my next insult.
Thanks antman!
Never listened to or read ‘the Bolta’ but if he’s as smart as one Philip Adams that would make a pleasant surprise for someone from the right.
Anyone know if he has some classic signature conservative dress code to challenge Philip Adams’ dashingly turgid left wing black turtle neck pullover with matching cap (yikes!!!)?
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Actually come to think of it Liverpool's posts on this forum are quintessentially turgid.
"Swollen or distended, as from a fluid; bloated:"
"pompous, boring, and hard to understand; bombastic"
"abnormally distended especially by fluids or gas;"
glantone said:
Actually come to think of it Liverpool's posts on this forum are quintessentially turgid.
"Swollen or distended, as from a fluid; bloated:"
"pompous, boring, and hard to understand; bombastic"
"abnormally distended especially by fluids or gas;"
Re: Not Good News From Israel
So we are comparing the turgid comments of the right with the swill comments of the left.
Heaven help our democracy :cutelaugh
So we are comparing the turgid comments of the right with the swill comments of the left.
Heaven help our democracy :cutelaugh
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Hamas fire another 4 rockets into Israel from Gaza.
They can't be trusted. They think a cease fire means they can continue to fight while the other side stops.
Pack of low down dirty dogs.
Hamas fire another 4 rockets into Israel from Gaza.
They can't be trusted. They think a cease fire means they can continue to fight while the other side stops.
Pack of low down dirty dogs.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Had the opportunity to watch an excellent show on ABC1's Sunday night's Compass.
Bridge Over The Wadi
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2492695.htm
Summary
At the epicentre of the ongoing conflict in the Middle East, a group of Arab and Jewish parents decide to establish a joint bi-national, bi-lingual Jewish-Arab school in a Palestinian village. The film follows the school's first year and shows how fragile the attempt is to create an environment of co-existence against the backdrop of the complicated reality, through the personal stories of its characters.
An excellent insight into issues confronting local Arab & Jewish families in Israel and how positive development is occurring.
Let's hope this is the true beginning of the end.
Had the opportunity to watch an excellent show on ABC1's Sunday night's Compass.
Bridge Over The Wadi
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2492695.htm
Summary
At the epicentre of the ongoing conflict in the Middle East, a group of Arab and Jewish parents decide to establish a joint bi-national, bi-lingual Jewish-Arab school in a Palestinian village. The film follows the school's first year and shows how fragile the attempt is to create an environment of co-existence against the backdrop of the complicated reality, through the personal stories of its characters.
An excellent insight into issues confronting local Arab & Jewish families in Israel and how positive development is occurring.
Let's hope this is the true beginning of the end.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
One would suspect that since the allegations below have emanated from within the IDF itself that these are likely to be true. These allagations should be investigated by an independent 3rd party.
Civilians 'gunned down in Gaza war'
Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
March 21, 2009
http://www.theage.com.au/world/civilians-gunned-down-in-gaza-war-20090320-94gt.html?page=-1
ISRAEL is under mounting international pressure to launch its own investigation into possible war crimes committed during its January assault on Gaza that killed at least 1300 Palestinians.
The renewed calls follow the publication of damning testimony from Israeli soldiers who took part in the war. The soldiers allege that unarmed civilians were killed under loose rules of engagement, and they also detail the wanton destruction of Palestinian property.
The soldiers' accounts have caused uproar across Israel and prompted an immediate response from the Israel Defence Forces' chief advocate, General Avichai Mendelbit.
He has ordered an investigation into a soldier's account of a sniper killing a woman and her two children who walked too close to a designated no-go area by mistake, and another account of a sharpshooter who killed an elderly woman who came within 100 metres of a commandeered house. Soldiers quoted by the Haaretz newspaper said wanton destruction of civilian property had been common.
The allegations were raised at a forum for graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military academy who took part in the war. The forum allowed them to talk openly about their experiences.
Defence Minister Ehud Barak backed the military investigation, saying he was "sure the the IDF will examine the matter with all seriousness".
"We have the most moral army in the world," Mr Barak told Israel Radio. "I have no doubt that every incident will be individually examined."
Israeli human rights groups expressed outrage at the soldiers' testimony. In a letter sent to Attorney-General Menachem Mazuz, a coalition of 13 human rights groups said it was time to "stop whitewashing suspected crimes in Gaza".
"The Government's failure to establish an independent investigation constitutes a violation of Israel's responsibilities under international law," the letter said.
"At the same time, it is a dangerous act which illustrates cowardice in the midst of possible IDF criminal activity, behaviour that increases the possibility that Israeli officers and soldiers will face trials abroad."
Michael Sfard, a lawyer for one of the human rights groups, Yesh Din, said an extra-military body had to be established to investigate the allegations. "Until today, about six weeks since the end of military operations in Gaza, not a single criminal investigation has begun despite hundreds of testimonies which raise suspicion about violations of international law and of war crimes," he said.
On Thursday, United Nations human rights investigator Richard Falk said Israel's offensive against Hamas in the densely populated Gaza Strip appeared to constitute "a war crime of the greatest magnitude".
Mr Falk, who is the UN's special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, said the Geneva Conventions required warring forces to distinguish between military targets and civilians. "If it is not possible to do so, then launching the attacks is inherently unlawful and would seem to constitute a war crime of the greatest magnitude under international law," he said.
His comments came as a group of 16 judges and scholars who participated in war crimes commissions on the conflicts in Darfur and Rwanda sent an open letter to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon calling on the UN to investigate alleged breaches of international law in Gaza.
But many Israelis disputed the accounts of misconduct provided by the soldiers. According to Major Gur Rosenblat, a reservist who commanded more than 100 men during the war in Gaza, the accounts were nothing more than rumours and had no basis in fact.
"I was there. I fought in Gaza and I am telling you that I have no idea, no idea, what these other soldiers are talking about," Major Rosenblat said. "It's not even close to the things I saw when I was there."
With NEW YORK TIMES
One would suspect that since the allegations below have emanated from within the IDF itself that these are likely to be true. These allagations should be investigated by an independent 3rd party.
Civilians 'gunned down in Gaza war'
Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
March 21, 2009
http://www.theage.com.au/world/civilians-gunned-down-in-gaza-war-20090320-94gt.html?page=-1
ISRAEL is under mounting international pressure to launch its own investigation into possible war crimes committed during its January assault on Gaza that killed at least 1300 Palestinians.
The renewed calls follow the publication of damning testimony from Israeli soldiers who took part in the war. The soldiers allege that unarmed civilians were killed under loose rules of engagement, and they also detail the wanton destruction of Palestinian property.
The soldiers' accounts have caused uproar across Israel and prompted an immediate response from the Israel Defence Forces' chief advocate, General Avichai Mendelbit.
He has ordered an investigation into a soldier's account of a sniper killing a woman and her two children who walked too close to a designated no-go area by mistake, and another account of a sharpshooter who killed an elderly woman who came within 100 metres of a commandeered house. Soldiers quoted by the Haaretz newspaper said wanton destruction of civilian property had been common.
The allegations were raised at a forum for graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military academy who took part in the war. The forum allowed them to talk openly about their experiences.
Defence Minister Ehud Barak backed the military investigation, saying he was "sure the the IDF will examine the matter with all seriousness".
"We have the most moral army in the world," Mr Barak told Israel Radio. "I have no doubt that every incident will be individually examined."
Israeli human rights groups expressed outrage at the soldiers' testimony. In a letter sent to Attorney-General Menachem Mazuz, a coalition of 13 human rights groups said it was time to "stop whitewashing suspected crimes in Gaza".
"The Government's failure to establish an independent investigation constitutes a violation of Israel's responsibilities under international law," the letter said.
"At the same time, it is a dangerous act which illustrates cowardice in the midst of possible IDF criminal activity, behaviour that increases the possibility that Israeli officers and soldiers will face trials abroad."
Michael Sfard, a lawyer for one of the human rights groups, Yesh Din, said an extra-military body had to be established to investigate the allegations. "Until today, about six weeks since the end of military operations in Gaza, not a single criminal investigation has begun despite hundreds of testimonies which raise suspicion about violations of international law and of war crimes," he said.
On Thursday, United Nations human rights investigator Richard Falk said Israel's offensive against Hamas in the densely populated Gaza Strip appeared to constitute "a war crime of the greatest magnitude".
Mr Falk, who is the UN's special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, said the Geneva Conventions required warring forces to distinguish between military targets and civilians. "If it is not possible to do so, then launching the attacks is inherently unlawful and would seem to constitute a war crime of the greatest magnitude under international law," he said.
His comments came as a group of 16 judges and scholars who participated in war crimes commissions on the conflicts in Darfur and Rwanda sent an open letter to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon calling on the UN to investigate alleged breaches of international law in Gaza.
But many Israelis disputed the accounts of misconduct provided by the soldiers. According to Major Gur Rosenblat, a reservist who commanded more than 100 men during the war in Gaza, the accounts were nothing more than rumours and had no basis in fact.
"I was there. I fought in Gaza and I am telling you that I have no idea, no idea, what these other soldiers are talking about," Major Rosenblat said. "It's not even close to the things I saw when I was there."
With NEW YORK TIMES
Re: Not Good News From Israel
i wonder how much tolerance and love you would have being thrust into a conflict where you have to watch your mates get their brains blown out or blown into litle pieces. its the same for both sides. and similar things happen on both sides. it happens in all wars.
na its the nature of the beast called war.Hancho said:
i wonder how much tolerance and love you would have being thrust into a conflict where you have to watch your mates get their brains blown out or blown into litle pieces. its the same for both sides. and similar things happen on both sides. it happens in all wars.
- Status
