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Palestine and Israel
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Re: Not Good News From Israel
Hamas fights to rebuild Gaza in new battle for hearts and minds.
Islamists say only they can lead the reconstruction, but the west is reluctant to give them aid, reports Peter Beaumont in Gaza
Peter Beaumont
The Observer, Sunday 25 January 2009
Article history
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/gaza-hamas
A bitter struggle is taking place over the right to oversee the reconstruction of Gaza, even as the leadership of Hamas emerges from the rubble of areas that were devastated by 23 days of Israeli bombardment.
The international community insists that it cannot channel billions of dollars in reconstruction aid to Hamas, and is calling for the involvement of the more moderate Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas. But Hamas is insisting on sole control of Gaza's rebuilding, as well as claiming moral leadership of the Palestinian people.
In the week since Israel and Hamas declared unilateral ceasefires to bring an end to more than three weeks of fighting, in which almost 1,500 Gazans died, the movement has acted rapidly to assert its control over assistance to civilians.
Sitting on huge cash reserves, Hamas has said that it will begin distributing emergency payments of 4,000 to those who have lost homes, and has already been handing out coupons for food as well as aid, some of it seized from foreign and international donors.
The role of Hamas in the reconstruction effort, and the group's tense relations with Abbas and his Fatah movement, have come to permeate every corner of Gaza's bruised and bloodied society.
At the al-Filisteen mosque in the Rimal area of Gaza City on Friday, the imam was preaching the necessity of brotherhood and unity. But on the steps after prayers, Hamas's economics minister explained what the conditions for Palestinian unity involved. Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza.
"Everyone recognises the need for reconciliation among Palestinians," said Abu Rushdi Zaza. "It will happen immediately if the Palestine Liberation Organisation [dominated by Fatah] can be rebuilt. But it must be understood that Hamas is the government. If international institutions want to do rebuilding projects in Gaza, then that is fine - but they must do it under our supervision.
"Ramallah [the West Bank city that is Abbas's seat of government] has no authority here," he added. "The president's office has no authority. Abbas is no longer [prime minister]. Salam Fayyad is not a minister."
Zaza's comments were echoed last week by other Hamas figures on the West Bank as well, who accused Abbas's administration of in effect siding with Israel in the war against Hamas by ordering the continuing campaign of arrests aimed at Hamas figures and banning demonstrations in support of the Islamic organisation.
"It is unbelievable that, all over the world, people were supporting Gaza," Yazid Khader, a spokesman for the movement, said last week. "Yet here on the West Bank people were unable to do so. We ask: will the blood spilled in Gaza be enough for the Palestinian Authority to move towards reconciliation with us?"
Calling for the release of hundreds of Hamas prisoners from Palestinian jails, he reiterated that only Hamas could be responsible for the rebuilding of Gaza. "We call this the battle of reconstruction. And Hamas and the resistance organisations are the only ones that can be in charge. No one else."
Mahmoud Musleh, a Palestinian legislative council member aligned with Hamas, added: "The organisation that should be talking for the Palestinian people is the PLO. But it has not been speaking. If it does not rehabilitate itself, there will be dramatic changes. At present it does not represent the Palestinian people. They can longer make decisions. They do not own the power."
He continued: "There is a new balance of power emerging. For the first time, through the steadfastness of the resistance in Gaza, we have seen Israel's project halted."
Other Hamas supporters said that, in standing on the sidelines for the first time in its history while other Palestinians fought, the PLO had revoked its claim to lead the Palestinian struggle.
Even those regarded as Hamas moderates, such as Ghazi Hamad, who yesterday was helping to co-ordinate the aid effort for Hamas at the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, was sceptical about how reconciliation could be achieved.
"I think that, after all this bloodshed, it is difficult for people to be neutral and tell the truth. There are some [Fatah] people in Ramallah accusing us of robbing humanitarian assistance. It is not true. They accuse us of killing Fatah people during the Israeli attack. There were mistakes, but that does not mean that is a policy."
Describing how he saw a future Palestinian policy towards Israel, he added: "My personal position is that it needs to be mixed. You cannot have resistance without politics, or politics without resistance."
"There is a huge distance between the two sides," said Gazan writer and political analyst Talal Okal. "There is a feeling in Hamas that they won a victory. They want this victory to be represented in any reconciliation talks with Fatah. They think they should set the agenda. They have been trying to do it by force, both during the war and afterwards. They want to show that they control Gaza. They do not want any other party to show itself."
Hamas's greatest problem is likely to come not from Fatah but from ordinary Gazans. It may have access to hundreds of millions of dollars, smuggled through the tunnels under the Rafah crossing, which are now operating again. But as Faisal Abu Shalah, a Fatah member of the legislative council for Gaza points out, while Hamas insists on controlling the reconstruction, Israel will not lift its economic blockade.
"They have the power and the money. They can give people money to rebuild," he said last week. "But with what? There is not a single bag of cement to be had on the Gaza Strip.
"Look at my window," he points to a large frame, its glass blown out, replaced with sheet plastic. "Do you think they can smuggle panes of glass or window frames through the Rafah tunnels? Hamas has the money, but it still cannot help the people in their long suffering."
And if one place is the symbol of the destruction wreaked in Gaza, it is the demolished houses of the Samouni family in Zeitoun, a place where the stink of death still seeps from out of the rubble.
A member of the family, who lost his father and his son, asks not to be identified for fear of being beaten by Hamas - as others were during the war - for criticising it. "No one from Hamas has come to offer us help. None of the leaders has been here. We were farmers, not fighters with a militant faction.
He pulls out a crumpled photograph showing a wedding scene. "This was my father. This, my son. After what happened to us here, I hate the name Hamas."
........................
One wonders whether the conflict in Gaza is more about Hamas attempting to monopolise power over all Palestinians, rather than its conflict against Israel.
We saw this a few years ago with Hezbollah doing the same thing in Lebanon.
Maybe the real truth about the various Palestinian conflicts relates to who amongst them has the right to receive the billions of $$$$ that gets donated from the west.
Israel only becomes an apparent cause by which the Palestinians have a reason to beg for these $$$$.
I found it amusing at the time just after Arafat's death that the PLO/Fatah had to threaten his widow to get her to hand over the billions of $$$$ that Arafat had stored in Swiss bank accounts. Billions of $$$$ that should have been used in rebuilding Gaza & the Western Bank.
Take away the conflict, you take away their source of funds.
Hamas fights to rebuild Gaza in new battle for hearts and minds.
Islamists say only they can lead the reconstruction, but the west is reluctant to give them aid, reports Peter Beaumont in Gaza
Peter Beaumont
The Observer, Sunday 25 January 2009
Article history
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/gaza-hamas
A bitter struggle is taking place over the right to oversee the reconstruction of Gaza, even as the leadership of Hamas emerges from the rubble of areas that were devastated by 23 days of Israeli bombardment.
The international community insists that it cannot channel billions of dollars in reconstruction aid to Hamas, and is calling for the involvement of the more moderate Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas. But Hamas is insisting on sole control of Gaza's rebuilding, as well as claiming moral leadership of the Palestinian people.
In the week since Israel and Hamas declared unilateral ceasefires to bring an end to more than three weeks of fighting, in which almost 1,500 Gazans died, the movement has acted rapidly to assert its control over assistance to civilians.
Sitting on huge cash reserves, Hamas has said that it will begin distributing emergency payments of 4,000 to those who have lost homes, and has already been handing out coupons for food as well as aid, some of it seized from foreign and international donors.
The role of Hamas in the reconstruction effort, and the group's tense relations with Abbas and his Fatah movement, have come to permeate every corner of Gaza's bruised and bloodied society.
At the al-Filisteen mosque in the Rimal area of Gaza City on Friday, the imam was preaching the necessity of brotherhood and unity. But on the steps after prayers, Hamas's economics minister explained what the conditions for Palestinian unity involved. Senior Hamas officials are demanding that the conditions for reconciliation should include an end to negotiations with Israel and to the peace process, a unity agreement under a banner of "resistance", and continued Hamas control of Gaza.
"Everyone recognises the need for reconciliation among Palestinians," said Abu Rushdi Zaza. "It will happen immediately if the Palestine Liberation Organisation [dominated by Fatah] can be rebuilt. But it must be understood that Hamas is the government. If international institutions want to do rebuilding projects in Gaza, then that is fine - but they must do it under our supervision.
"Ramallah [the West Bank city that is Abbas's seat of government] has no authority here," he added. "The president's office has no authority. Abbas is no longer [prime minister]. Salam Fayyad is not a minister."
Zaza's comments were echoed last week by other Hamas figures on the West Bank as well, who accused Abbas's administration of in effect siding with Israel in the war against Hamas by ordering the continuing campaign of arrests aimed at Hamas figures and banning demonstrations in support of the Islamic organisation.
"It is unbelievable that, all over the world, people were supporting Gaza," Yazid Khader, a spokesman for the movement, said last week. "Yet here on the West Bank people were unable to do so. We ask: will the blood spilled in Gaza be enough for the Palestinian Authority to move towards reconciliation with us?"
Calling for the release of hundreds of Hamas prisoners from Palestinian jails, he reiterated that only Hamas could be responsible for the rebuilding of Gaza. "We call this the battle of reconstruction. And Hamas and the resistance organisations are the only ones that can be in charge. No one else."
Mahmoud Musleh, a Palestinian legislative council member aligned with Hamas, added: "The organisation that should be talking for the Palestinian people is the PLO. But it has not been speaking. If it does not rehabilitate itself, there will be dramatic changes. At present it does not represent the Palestinian people. They can longer make decisions. They do not own the power."
He continued: "There is a new balance of power emerging. For the first time, through the steadfastness of the resistance in Gaza, we have seen Israel's project halted."
Other Hamas supporters said that, in standing on the sidelines for the first time in its history while other Palestinians fought, the PLO had revoked its claim to lead the Palestinian struggle.
Even those regarded as Hamas moderates, such as Ghazi Hamad, who yesterday was helping to co-ordinate the aid effort for Hamas at the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, was sceptical about how reconciliation could be achieved.
"I think that, after all this bloodshed, it is difficult for people to be neutral and tell the truth. There are some [Fatah] people in Ramallah accusing us of robbing humanitarian assistance. It is not true. They accuse us of killing Fatah people during the Israeli attack. There were mistakes, but that does not mean that is a policy."
Describing how he saw a future Palestinian policy towards Israel, he added: "My personal position is that it needs to be mixed. You cannot have resistance without politics, or politics without resistance."
"There is a huge distance between the two sides," said Gazan writer and political analyst Talal Okal. "There is a feeling in Hamas that they won a victory. They want this victory to be represented in any reconciliation talks with Fatah. They think they should set the agenda. They have been trying to do it by force, both during the war and afterwards. They want to show that they control Gaza. They do not want any other party to show itself."
Hamas's greatest problem is likely to come not from Fatah but from ordinary Gazans. It may have access to hundreds of millions of dollars, smuggled through the tunnels under the Rafah crossing, which are now operating again. But as Faisal Abu Shalah, a Fatah member of the legislative council for Gaza points out, while Hamas insists on controlling the reconstruction, Israel will not lift its economic blockade.
"They have the power and the money. They can give people money to rebuild," he said last week. "But with what? There is not a single bag of cement to be had on the Gaza Strip.
"Look at my window," he points to a large frame, its glass blown out, replaced with sheet plastic. "Do you think they can smuggle panes of glass or window frames through the Rafah tunnels? Hamas has the money, but it still cannot help the people in their long suffering."
And if one place is the symbol of the destruction wreaked in Gaza, it is the demolished houses of the Samouni family in Zeitoun, a place where the stink of death still seeps from out of the rubble.
A member of the family, who lost his father and his son, asks not to be identified for fear of being beaten by Hamas - as others were during the war - for criticising it. "No one from Hamas has come to offer us help. None of the leaders has been here. We were farmers, not fighters with a militant faction.
He pulls out a crumpled photograph showing a wedding scene. "This was my father. This, my son. After what happened to us here, I hate the name Hamas."
........................
One wonders whether the conflict in Gaza is more about Hamas attempting to monopolise power over all Palestinians, rather than its conflict against Israel.
We saw this a few years ago with Hezbollah doing the same thing in Lebanon.
Maybe the real truth about the various Palestinian conflicts relates to who amongst them has the right to receive the billions of $$$$ that gets donated from the west.
Israel only becomes an apparent cause by which the Palestinians have a reason to beg for these $$$$.
I found it amusing at the time just after Arafat's death that the PLO/Fatah had to threaten his widow to get her to hand over the billions of $$$$ that Arafat had stored in Swiss bank accounts. Billions of $$$$ that should have been used in rebuilding Gaza & the Western Bank.
Take away the conflict, you take away their source of funds.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Phantom,
Don't know whether you saw this article a couple of days ago.
I makes some good points...points that many people just dismiss while condemning Israel:
Images of bloodshed obscure truth
January 22, 2009
MANY friends have berated me about Israel's "crimes" in Gaza during the conflict between Hamas and Israel. I understand how they felt. When I saw the images of women and children, victims of that war, I couldn't help, still can't, but feel a profound sense of loss.
At the same time, however, my friends only saw the international media hysteria against Israel, which was predictably exactly the same as in past conflicts. But consider this: it was Hamas that formally declared all peace agreements with Israel null and void, which formally ended the ceasefire on December 19, 2008, after having violated it with the firing of thousands of rockets on the southern Israeli populations prior to Israel's invasion of Gaza.
I did not notice any media hysteria about these attacks on southern Israel, in fact, barely a mention. What country in the world would allow 3500 missiles to be fired during a 12-month period on its civilian populated areas and not retaliate?
Some commentators have said that the rockets fired by Hamas claimed only a few Israeli victims, as if this somehow justified the attacks.
I was in the southern Israeli town of Sderot last June when the Australia Israel Cultural Exchange screened the opening film of our annual Australian Film Festival there as a mark of solidarity with the local population.
Given its proximity to Gaza, Sderot had until recently been the main target for Hamas's rockets. The reality on the ground there is this: the population had stopped breathing for over a year. In order to protect civilian life from the Hamas rockets, extraordinary measures are taken. Shopping is planned like a military operation and taking kids to school becomes an operational nightmare.
The siren alarm system gives people less than 30 seconds to reach the nearest shelter. The people of Sderot, and now Ashkelon, Ashdod and Be'er Sheva, observe this rule with great discipline. This duty of care to protect civilian life by the Israeli state and their local civic leaders explains why there are so few casualties on the Israeli side.
The psychological trauma of living with the anticipation of the next rocket attack and the threat of danger, day in day out, is the real definition of the word "terror" for these people.
What is so galling and paradoxical to average Israelis, is the consistent call for Israel to be apologetic for the fact that it puts the welfare of its citizens first and seeks to minimise civilian casualties on both sides, despite the thousands of rockets hurled at its towns by Hamas. In contrast, Hamas's stated aim is to kill Israeli civilians, yet they are virtually exempt from criticism in regards to these acts. Some media outlets even go so far as to justify Hamas's targeting of civilians as a legitimate form of resistance.
Sure enough, some television programs did invite a token Israeli guest who tried to explain Israel's case. But the answers given seemed to be presented as propaganda, and the implication was that the only story to be believed was the Hamas narrative.
If Israel has learned the lessons of the 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas has learned from that war too. Hezbollah was able to use the southern Lebanese population as human shields, and get away with it.
You would think that such a crime would be denounced by humanitarian groups, by the UN and by Western media.
Alas, the strategy has worked for Hamas: it produced the images that screamed from the front pages of newspapers and TV screens, pushingthe buttons of people across theworld.
Emotions cloud the context; the result is a circus. It is mind-boggling that barely any media outlet outside Israel has consistently denounced Hamas for using Palestinian women and children as human shields.
By forgetting the context, voluntarily or not, much of the Western commentators have implied this: it is permissible for terror groups to use civilians as human shields, but not fora legitimate country to mistakenly kill civilians in the course of battlingenemy.
The latter is being portrayed as a crime against humanity. However harsh it is to lose civilians, this logic isabsurd.
French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy said recently that you must not confuse the intentional act of shooting rockets on civilian populations with the clear intention of killing them (a crime against humanity) and the fire that is aimed at the enemy combatant that mistakenly kills civilians (however unacceptable and heartbreaking the loss of civilians always is).
After all, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Hamas has built an infrastructure of bunkers and tunnels that were located under the most populated areas of Gaza. These were not for the benefit of the civilian population, but for Hamas's own leaders to smuggle arms and hide.
The Hamas leadership had even taken refuge at the Shifa Hospital, the largest in Gaza, and at the UN Relief and Works Agency, which normally provides humanitarian and health services. There has been a lot of ranting by the UN regarding the attacks on UNRWA. It is interesting to note how the UN places the blame on Israel but does not place any responsibility on Hamas.
The rocket shootings against southern Israel take place from the buildings where civilians live. Mosques and schools are used as ammunition caches and arms depots. Hamas combatants had taken off their military fatigues from the start of the Israeli invasion and were wearing civilian clothes, surprising Israeli soldiers by mixing with civilians.
In such an environment, it is no wonder civilians were caught in the crossfire. The only surprise is the low number of civilian casualties in an area where 1.4 million Palestinians live. This is a result of the care with which Israel has operated.
Israel says 12 per cent of casualties are civilians, Hamas say 40 per cent. Whatever the percentage, it is a tragedy. But citing numbers and showing images while forgetting the context creates one more casualty: the truth.
Immediately after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unilaterally declared a ceasefire on Sunday, accepting the Egyptian plan, Hamas fired eight rockets on southern Israel.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24945114-7583,00.html
Phantom said:
Phantom,
Don't know whether you saw this article a couple of days ago.
I makes some good points...points that many people just dismiss while condemning Israel:
Images of bloodshed obscure truth
January 22, 2009
MANY friends have berated me about Israel's "crimes" in Gaza during the conflict between Hamas and Israel. I understand how they felt. When I saw the images of women and children, victims of that war, I couldn't help, still can't, but feel a profound sense of loss.
At the same time, however, my friends only saw the international media hysteria against Israel, which was predictably exactly the same as in past conflicts. But consider this: it was Hamas that formally declared all peace agreements with Israel null and void, which formally ended the ceasefire on December 19, 2008, after having violated it with the firing of thousands of rockets on the southern Israeli populations prior to Israel's invasion of Gaza.
I did not notice any media hysteria about these attacks on southern Israel, in fact, barely a mention. What country in the world would allow 3500 missiles to be fired during a 12-month period on its civilian populated areas and not retaliate?
Some commentators have said that the rockets fired by Hamas claimed only a few Israeli victims, as if this somehow justified the attacks.
I was in the southern Israeli town of Sderot last June when the Australia Israel Cultural Exchange screened the opening film of our annual Australian Film Festival there as a mark of solidarity with the local population.
Given its proximity to Gaza, Sderot had until recently been the main target for Hamas's rockets. The reality on the ground there is this: the population had stopped breathing for over a year. In order to protect civilian life from the Hamas rockets, extraordinary measures are taken. Shopping is planned like a military operation and taking kids to school becomes an operational nightmare.
The siren alarm system gives people less than 30 seconds to reach the nearest shelter. The people of Sderot, and now Ashkelon, Ashdod and Be'er Sheva, observe this rule with great discipline. This duty of care to protect civilian life by the Israeli state and their local civic leaders explains why there are so few casualties on the Israeli side.
The psychological trauma of living with the anticipation of the next rocket attack and the threat of danger, day in day out, is the real definition of the word "terror" for these people.
What is so galling and paradoxical to average Israelis, is the consistent call for Israel to be apologetic for the fact that it puts the welfare of its citizens first and seeks to minimise civilian casualties on both sides, despite the thousands of rockets hurled at its towns by Hamas. In contrast, Hamas's stated aim is to kill Israeli civilians, yet they are virtually exempt from criticism in regards to these acts. Some media outlets even go so far as to justify Hamas's targeting of civilians as a legitimate form of resistance.
Sure enough, some television programs did invite a token Israeli guest who tried to explain Israel's case. But the answers given seemed to be presented as propaganda, and the implication was that the only story to be believed was the Hamas narrative.
If Israel has learned the lessons of the 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas has learned from that war too. Hezbollah was able to use the southern Lebanese population as human shields, and get away with it.
You would think that such a crime would be denounced by humanitarian groups, by the UN and by Western media.
Alas, the strategy has worked for Hamas: it produced the images that screamed from the front pages of newspapers and TV screens, pushingthe buttons of people across theworld.
Emotions cloud the context; the result is a circus. It is mind-boggling that barely any media outlet outside Israel has consistently denounced Hamas for using Palestinian women and children as human shields.
By forgetting the context, voluntarily or not, much of the Western commentators have implied this: it is permissible for terror groups to use civilians as human shields, but not fora legitimate country to mistakenly kill civilians in the course of battlingenemy.
The latter is being portrayed as a crime against humanity. However harsh it is to lose civilians, this logic isabsurd.
French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy said recently that you must not confuse the intentional act of shooting rockets on civilian populations with the clear intention of killing them (a crime against humanity) and the fire that is aimed at the enemy combatant that mistakenly kills civilians (however unacceptable and heartbreaking the loss of civilians always is).
After all, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Hamas has built an infrastructure of bunkers and tunnels that were located under the most populated areas of Gaza. These were not for the benefit of the civilian population, but for Hamas's own leaders to smuggle arms and hide.
The Hamas leadership had even taken refuge at the Shifa Hospital, the largest in Gaza, and at the UN Relief and Works Agency, which normally provides humanitarian and health services. There has been a lot of ranting by the UN regarding the attacks on UNRWA. It is interesting to note how the UN places the blame on Israel but does not place any responsibility on Hamas.
The rocket shootings against southern Israel take place from the buildings where civilians live. Mosques and schools are used as ammunition caches and arms depots. Hamas combatants had taken off their military fatigues from the start of the Israeli invasion and were wearing civilian clothes, surprising Israeli soldiers by mixing with civilians.
In such an environment, it is no wonder civilians were caught in the crossfire. The only surprise is the low number of civilian casualties in an area where 1.4 million Palestinians live. This is a result of the care with which Israel has operated.
Israel says 12 per cent of casualties are civilians, Hamas say 40 per cent. Whatever the percentage, it is a tragedy. But citing numbers and showing images while forgetting the context creates one more casualty: the truth.
Immediately after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unilaterally declared a ceasefire on Sunday, accepting the Egyptian plan, Hamas fired eight rockets on southern Israel.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24945114-7583,00.html
Re: Not Good News From Israel
The only optimism that I have is that the sectarianism in Ireland appears to be over.
During the '60s, '70s & '80s of my lifetime, and of course the decades before, it seemed that the problems in Ulster would never cease.
Over time and exhaustion, on both sides, the parties have come to the table for hopefully a final peace.
One might guess that sometime in the future, when both the Palestinian & Israeli people are completely exhausted of or by war then the opportunity of a lasting peace may be acted on.
The only optimism that I have is that the sectarianism in Ireland appears to be over.
During the '60s, '70s & '80s of my lifetime, and of course the decades before, it seemed that the problems in Ulster would never cease.
Over time and exhaustion, on both sides, the parties have come to the table for hopefully a final peace.
One might guess that sometime in the future, when both the Palestinian & Israeli people are completely exhausted of or by war then the opportunity of a lasting peace may be acted on.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
It's both. It's also politically convenient for Israel to have an external enemy to focus domestic politics around.
Hamas are low-down, dirty dogs, of that there is no doubt. I have as little respect for most Israeli politicians in this regard either who play the high moral ground while ever compressing the Palestinian territories and denying the Palestinians any vestige of economic and political self-determination.
It's clear that Israeli politicians use the war for domestic political purposes also - which is why we had Tzipi Livni,
Ehud Barack and Benjamin Netanyahu all shamelessly trying to leverage Operation Cast Lead for their own political purposes. There is an Israeli election scheduled for February.
The Israel/Palestine conundrum is one that will never be solved militarily by Israel or through half-assed rocket attacks and insurgency by Hamas, or Fatah for that matter.
Guess what, after Operation Cast Lead we have massive destruction of infrastructure in Gaza, over 1000 civilian deaths, and life goes on. The tunnels that are used to smuggle goods into Gaza are already open again. Rocket attacks on Israel will continue. Hamas still controls the streets and the politics. Israel politicians and Hamas politicians revel in their respective "triumphs".
Phantom said:
It's both. It's also politically convenient for Israel to have an external enemy to focus domestic politics around.
Hamas are low-down, dirty dogs, of that there is no doubt. I have as little respect for most Israeli politicians in this regard either who play the high moral ground while ever compressing the Palestinian territories and denying the Palestinians any vestige of economic and political self-determination.
It's clear that Israeli politicians use the war for domestic political purposes also - which is why we had Tzipi Livni,
Ehud Barack and Benjamin Netanyahu all shamelessly trying to leverage Operation Cast Lead for their own political purposes. There is an Israeli election scheduled for February.
The Israel/Palestine conundrum is one that will never be solved militarily by Israel or through half-assed rocket attacks and insurgency by Hamas, or Fatah for that matter.
Guess what, after Operation Cast Lead we have massive destruction of infrastructure in Gaza, over 1000 civilian deaths, and life goes on. The tunnels that are used to smuggle goods into Gaza are already open again. Rocket attacks on Israel will continue. Hamas still controls the streets and the politics. Israel politicians and Hamas politicians revel in their respective "triumphs".
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Exactly why Israel had to keep going and ignore the global condemnation that was against them....and the urging of "peace talks".
All a ceasefire does is let everyone regroup, rebuild somewhat, bunker the guns in better positions, and in a few months time we'll do it all again.
antman said:
Exactly why Israel had to keep going and ignore the global condemnation that was against them....and the urging of "peace talks".
All a ceasefire does is let everyone regroup, rebuild somewhat, bunker the guns in better positions, and in a few months time we'll do it all again.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
It would be interesting to revisit the elements & factors that led to an accord in Ulster.
Memory lends that it was the preparedness of ALL the parties to lay down arms that led to resolution.
But what were the factors, or conditions, that led them all to do so?
This might give some clue.
It would be interesting to revisit the elements & factors that led to an accord in Ulster.
Memory lends that it was the preparedness of ALL the parties to lay down arms that led to resolution.
But what were the factors, or conditions, that led them all to do so?
This might give some clue.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
a big part of it was both sides got sick of the price being paid. From a distance it seems both the extremists in the Palestinian and Israeli camps are far from worried about the price being paid, with both demanding more.
While extremists on both sides command so much influence, nothing will change,
Phantom said:
a big part of it was both sides got sick of the price being paid. From a distance it seems both the extremists in the Palestinian and Israeli camps are far from worried about the price being paid, with both demanding more.
While extremists on both sides command so much influence, nothing will change,
Re: Not Good News From Israel
The Irish and the English were slogging it out under different circumstances.
They both cursed and begged forgiveness from the same god who they both acknowledged often resided in the toilet bowl late at night or in the wee morning hours, both were not armed or supported by neighbouring countries (no-one liked either of them enough to lend a hand) and the populations of both countries believed a suicide bomb is something seriously potent you drink just before closing when you’re already 3 sheets to the wind.
Further more, the West Bank and Gaza are still - after all these centuries - yet to produce one comedian who has had them rolling in the aisles (with laughter as opposed to pain) in Jerusalem.
Until eitherside can come up with a comedian who gets his own prime time tv show in the opposing country, the war will go on.
The Irish and the English were slogging it out under different circumstances.
They both cursed and begged forgiveness from the same god who they both acknowledged often resided in the toilet bowl late at night or in the wee morning hours, both were not armed or supported by neighbouring countries (no-one liked either of them enough to lend a hand) and the populations of both countries believed a suicide bomb is something seriously potent you drink just before closing when you’re already 3 sheets to the wind.
Further more, the West Bank and Gaza are still - after all these centuries - yet to produce one comedian who has had them rolling in the aisles (with laughter as opposed to pain) in Jerusalem.
Until eitherside can come up with a comedian who gets his own prime time tv show in the opposing country, the war will go on.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
There are plenty of Jewish comedians. Some of the best.
There will never be peace in the middle east. They all care too much. All too religous, and unable to resolve for fear of giving their creator the sh!ts.
Even in Africa, its all tibal, tit for tat murders that lead to murderous slaughter.
glantone said:
There are plenty of Jewish comedians. Some of the best.
There will never be peace in the middle east. They all care too much. All too religous, and unable to resolve for fear of giving their creator the sh!ts.
Even in Africa, its all tibal, tit for tat murders that lead to murderous slaughter.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
There is one BIG difference between Ireland and Gaza.
While the IRA bombed innocents...I can't remember any suicide bombers.
Hamas/Terrorists in Gaza have no value for life whatsoever....they are prepared to kill themselves even for their 'cause'.
In fact, they are closer to Japanese kamikazes with their fanatical outlook rather than the IRA....and we know what lengths the USA in the end had to resort to to stop the Japanese in their tracks.
There is one BIG difference between Ireland and Gaza.
While the IRA bombed innocents...I can't remember any suicide bombers.
Hamas/Terrorists in Gaza have no value for life whatsoever....they are prepared to kill themselves even for their 'cause'.
In fact, they are closer to Japanese kamikazes with their fanatical outlook rather than the IRA....and we know what lengths the USA in the end had to resort to to stop the Japanese in their tracks.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Well, that didn't take long did it?
Gaza is rearming, says militants' adviser
Jason Koutsoukis, Gaza
January 27, 2009
THE prominent Hamas adviser Ahmed Yousef says the organisation is already rearming itself and that international efforts to stop the smuggling of weapons into the Gaza Strip would fail.
In an interview with The Age, Dr Yousef, a senior adviser to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, said attempts at a peaceful resolution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict were pointless.
"I'm gonna tell you that as long as there is occupation and there is a struggle, we will find our way to have more advanced weapons to defend ourselves," Dr Yousef said.
"Of course we are bringing in weapons because occupation and suffering, this is the equation, and that means the struggle will continue and the Palestinians will find their own way to defend themselves and how to make the enemy bleed."
http://www.theage.com.au/world/gaza-is-rearming-says-militants-adviser-20090126-7pz2.html
Liverpool said:
Well, that didn't take long did it?
Gaza is rearming, says militants' adviser
Jason Koutsoukis, Gaza
January 27, 2009
THE prominent Hamas adviser Ahmed Yousef says the organisation is already rearming itself and that international efforts to stop the smuggling of weapons into the Gaza Strip would fail.
In an interview with The Age, Dr Yousef, a senior adviser to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, said attempts at a peaceful resolution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict were pointless.
"I'm gonna tell you that as long as there is occupation and there is a struggle, we will find our way to have more advanced weapons to defend ourselves," Dr Yousef said.
"Of course we are bringing in weapons because occupation and suffering, this is the equation, and that means the struggle will continue and the Palestinians will find their own way to defend themselves and how to make the enemy bleed."
http://www.theage.com.au/world/gaza-is-rearming-says-militants-adviser-20090126-7pz2.html
Re: Not Good News From Israel
So a bomber who bombs innocents but saves himself is morally better than a bomber who kills himself while bombing innocents? I'd argue both value human life equally cheaply.
By the way, the IRA used the hideous tactic of "proxy bombing". Forcing an innocent to carry a bomb to the detonation site by holding their family hostage. Is this morally better or worse than a suicide bomber Liverpool?
The IRA also had hunger strikers who killed themselves through not eating in prisons - Bobby Sands the most famous. Doesn't this make them fanatics? There are actually monuments to the IRA hunger strikers in Ireland and even Belfast. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Your moral relativism when it comes to acts of terror only reveals your own ignorance and bias.
Liverpool said:
So a bomber who bombs innocents but saves himself is morally better than a bomber who kills himself while bombing innocents? I'd argue both value human life equally cheaply.
By the way, the IRA used the hideous tactic of "proxy bombing". Forcing an innocent to carry a bomb to the detonation site by holding their family hostage. Is this morally better or worse than a suicide bomber Liverpool?
The IRA also had hunger strikers who killed themselves through not eating in prisons - Bobby Sands the most famous. Doesn't this make them fanatics? There are actually monuments to the IRA hunger strikers in Ireland and even Belfast. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Your moral relativism when it comes to acts of terror only reveals your own ignorance and bias.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
No, I'm not surprised.
It is why they had to keep going....not stop and wilt at the growing global condemnation aimed at them.
Similarly, the Coalition did the same after Desert Storm....they should have kept going and taken Iraq then, not wait until later.
When dealing with these people you have to go all the way or not at all.
Look at WW2....problem solved because the Allies didn't stop at the German border....they kept going all the way to Berlin.
Thankfully, the nuclear bomb saved them the task and bloodshed of going all the way to Tokyo.
One of the natural instincts of life on earth is for oneself to survive.
A bomber killing innocents isn't morally better or worse than a suicide bomber.
A suicide bomber isn't morally better or worse than a 'proxy bomber'.
But if a suicide bomber is prepared to go against the natural instinct to survive and kill themselves and innocents, then I think you are dealing with a completely different enemy compared to someone who coldly kills others but protects their own life.
antman said:
No, I'm not surprised.
It is why they had to keep going....not stop and wilt at the growing global condemnation aimed at them.
Similarly, the Coalition did the same after Desert Storm....they should have kept going and taken Iraq then, not wait until later.
When dealing with these people you have to go all the way or not at all.
Look at WW2....problem solved because the Allies didn't stop at the German border....they kept going all the way to Berlin.
Thankfully, the nuclear bomb saved them the task and bloodshed of going all the way to Tokyo.
antman said:
One of the natural instincts of life on earth is for oneself to survive.
A bomber killing innocents isn't morally better or worse than a suicide bomber.
A suicide bomber isn't morally better or worse than a 'proxy bomber'.
But if a suicide bomber is prepared to go against the natural instinct to survive and kill themselves and innocents, then I think you are dealing with a completely different enemy compared to someone who coldly kills others but protects their own life.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
So you agree, that the Americans killings hundreds of thousands of innocent people with a nuclear bomb were no more moral than a suicide bomber?
So forcing someone against their will to deliver a bomb is no less moral than doing it yourself?
Liverpool said:
So you agree, that the Americans killings hundreds of thousands of innocent people with a nuclear bomb were no more moral than a suicide bomber?
Liverpool said:
So forcing someone against their will to deliver a bomb is no less moral than doing it yourself?
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Killing people isn't "moral". Full stop.
However, if I shot you in the street today...I'd be up for murder.
But if I shot you during a time of war and you were the enemy...I'd probably get a medal for it.
There is a time and place for when the social fabric of society and what morals we live by in civilian life are ignored and that is during a time of war.
The Americans dropped the bomb on Japan in a time of war.
The lines were drawn in the sand....we knew who the enemy was and they knew who they were fighting against...there was a declaration of war and everyone got stuck in.
What we see today with Islamic extremists isn't a conventional war....its why Bush called it a 'war on terror' because there isn't a known enemy...it seems to be groups of fanatics with one beef or another.
They are civilians with a personal grudges on America or Israel or western society or western ideals or Christianity...or all of the above.
Their fanaticism flies in the face of the basic natural instinct of survival of oneself.
1eyedtiger said:
Killing people isn't "moral". Full stop.
However, if I shot you in the street today...I'd be up for murder.
But if I shot you during a time of war and you were the enemy...I'd probably get a medal for it.
There is a time and place for when the social fabric of society and what morals we live by in civilian life are ignored and that is during a time of war.
The Americans dropped the bomb on Japan in a time of war.
The lines were drawn in the sand....we knew who the enemy was and they knew who they were fighting against...there was a declaration of war and everyone got stuck in.
What we see today with Islamic extremists isn't a conventional war....its why Bush called it a 'war on terror' because there isn't a known enemy...it seems to be groups of fanatics with one beef or another.
They are civilians with a personal grudges on America or Israel or western society or western ideals or Christianity...or all of the above.
Their fanaticism flies in the face of the basic natural instinct of survival of oneself.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
[/quote]
Declaration of war does not automatically give you carte blanche to act anyway you please. In a time of war you still can't kill innocent civilians. Thats why we have international law, Geneva convention, trials against war criminals,etc, etc .
[/quote]
Liverpool said:
Declaration of war does not automatically give you carte blanche to act anyway you please. In a time of war you still can't kill innocent civilians. Thats why we have international law, Geneva convention, trials against war criminals,etc, etc .
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