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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Palestine and Israel
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Re: Not Good News From Israel
Rosy,
Your quoting Lennon’s ‘Imagine’ (an amazing song) reminded me of a bit of script from Woody Allen’s Deconstructing Harry.
Allen’s Sister: l'm a Jew. l was born a Jew. Do you hate me because of that?
Allen: And if our parents converted to Catholicism a month before you were born, we'd be Catholics. They're clubs. They're exclusionary.
Sister: They foster the concept of "the other"...
Allen: So you know who to hate.
Sister: That's enough!
Allen: A question: lf a Jew gets massacred...does it bother you more than if it's a Gentile...or a black or a Bosnian?
Sister: Yes, it does. l can't help it. lt's my people.
Allen: They're all your people.
Rosy,
Your quoting Lennon’s ‘Imagine’ (an amazing song) reminded me of a bit of script from Woody Allen’s Deconstructing Harry.
Allen’s Sister: l'm a Jew. l was born a Jew. Do you hate me because of that?
Allen: And if our parents converted to Catholicism a month before you were born, we'd be Catholics. They're clubs. They're exclusionary.
Sister: They foster the concept of "the other"...
Allen: So you know who to hate.
Sister: That's enough!
Allen: A question: lf a Jew gets massacred...does it bother you more than if it's a Gentile...or a black or a Bosnian?
Sister: Yes, it does. l can't help it. lt's my people.
Allen: They're all your people.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
first of all i will reveal that i have jewish blood in me (my grandmother). but my sympathies tend to lie with the palestinians in the israel/palestine conflict, and most australians probably feel the same.
i will admit i don't proclaim to have great knowledge on the history of the land. all i can only base my opinion on is recent history. the reality is that is david v goliath. israel has the backing of the usa, where palestine has the arab world. groups like hezbollah and hamas aren't innocent of course... they must admit israel has a right to exist.
what upsets me is how israel can bomb the crap out of one country just because one "terrorist"group kidnapps 2 solidiers and the rest of the world lets them gets away with it. in comparison, how many so called terrorists have israel jailed?
while i'm not into any music that doesn't a trancey beat to it, imagine by john lennon was a well written song. i'm a very placid person by nature and i don't like violence at all. the thing about religion is poignant... if there were no religion there would be no wars...
first of all i will reveal that i have jewish blood in me (my grandmother). but my sympathies tend to lie with the palestinians in the israel/palestine conflict, and most australians probably feel the same.
i will admit i don't proclaim to have great knowledge on the history of the land. all i can only base my opinion on is recent history. the reality is that is david v goliath. israel has the backing of the usa, where palestine has the arab world. groups like hezbollah and hamas aren't innocent of course... they must admit israel has a right to exist.
what upsets me is how israel can bomb the crap out of one country just because one "terrorist"group kidnapps 2 solidiers and the rest of the world lets them gets away with it. in comparison, how many so called terrorists have israel jailed?
rosy23 said:
while i'm not into any music that doesn't a trancey beat to it, imagine by john lennon was a well written song. i'm a very placid person by nature and i don't like violence at all. the thing about religion is poignant... if there were no religion there would be no wars...
Re: Not Good News From Israel
I came back to visit this topic cause what is happening over there in Lebanon means alot to me as well. But after seeing what has gone on with some posters on here has made me not bother voicing my opinion on this topic. Bloody shame really as i think that all on here have reasnable opinion on their knowledge of the topic only to go personnal. Like what is happening over there it is just a bloody shame. I'm another that wont post on here again cause obviously it is just getting too personnal.... :-[
I came back to visit this topic cause what is happening over there in Lebanon means alot to me as well. But after seeing what has gone on with some posters on here has made me not bother voicing my opinion on this topic. Bloody shame really as i think that all on here have reasnable opinion on their knowledge of the topic only to go personnal. Like what is happening over there it is just a bloody shame. I'm another that wont post on here again cause obviously it is just getting too personnal.... :-[
Re: Not Good News From Israel
To begin again.
Chapter 5.1 - Zionism, 1800 - 1917.
What led to the creation of the state of Israel.
In the late 17th & 18th centuries, there was a burst of Liberty, Justice & Democracy.
Previously, although people lived on the land, the land was owned by kings & the nobility.
After the great Revolutions, ordinary people took power, and therefore the connection to the land altered, and the land belonged to the people.
The people had to have a political stake in the land.
France was for the French people.
Britain was for the British people.
Germany for the Germans.
Italy for the Italians, etc, etc.
This was where Nationalism, along with all its flaws, was derived.
Although Napoleon was the first European ruler to restore full citizenship rights to Jewish people, Napoleon did not last, and so those full citizenship rights didn't last either.
These countries clearly made it known that Jews would not be considered full citizens, so therefore the idea was born amongst the Jews that they should have a country of their own.
But what country or land would that be?
What part of the world held a common place for all Jews?
The land of Jewish ancestry - Israel.
In early 19th century Britain, a young man of Jewish parentage was determined to change to make change from within. (At that time, one had to be baptised Christian to be a British parliamentarian. Disraeli took that step to launch his political career.) The opportunity arose in 1874 upon Disraeli's election to the British PrimeMinistership. The Suez Canal project was on the point of bankruptcy. A 3-way deal was agreed upon between Disraeli, wealthy London banker Lionel Rothschild and Queen Victoria, for Britain to take over control of the project from the bankrupt Egyptians. The unofficial agreement was for practising Jews to have full citizenship rights in Britain, including being eligible to stand for Parliament.
After the expulsion of Jews from Spain, during the Inquisition, Jews had started trickling back into the cities & towns in and around Jerusalem.
As a consequence of pogroms in Russia (1881-82), the Odessa physician Leo Pinsker wrote in his work 'Autoemancipation' (1882) of a home for oppressed Jewry. Founded after 1882, the Association of the Friends of Zion, joined by Pinsker, aspired to the colonization of Palestine by the Jews. Under the impact of the 'Dreyfus Affair' (1894), Theodore Herzl (1860-1904) composed his work 'The Jewish State' (1896) and, independently of the movements of eastern Jewry, established the Zionist movement.
The Jewish question became a national question to be solved by the Jews. At the 1st Zionist World Congress at Basle (1897), a strong political organization was created; the Basle programme defined as the aim of Zionism 'the establishment for the Jewish people of a home in Palestine, to be secured by international law'.
Cultural Zionism aspired to make Palestine an intellectual centre; this was to be done through detailed political, cultural & colonizing work. Its radiating influence was to lead the Jews of the world to internal unity. Unlike political Zionism, cultural Zionism was able to wait for the realization of statehood. Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) endeavoured to establish a synthesis of both Zionist schools of thought. It found practical realization in the establishment of the Zionist Palestine office in Jaffa (1907) and of the Hebrew University (1918).
In reaction against the Zionist movement, the 'Protocols of Zion' (1905) appeared. Published in Germany by former army captain Muller Von Hausen (a friend of the German Field Marshall Erich von Ludendorff), this forgery intensified antisemitism.
1917 - The Pledge of Lord Balfour for the establishment of a national home for the Jews in Palestine.
(This has been taken from The Penguin Atlas Of World History, Vol.2, Penguin, 1995 edition)
To be continued.
To begin again.
Chapter 5.1 - Zionism, 1800 - 1917.
What led to the creation of the state of Israel.
In the late 17th & 18th centuries, there was a burst of Liberty, Justice & Democracy.
Previously, although people lived on the land, the land was owned by kings & the nobility.
After the great Revolutions, ordinary people took power, and therefore the connection to the land altered, and the land belonged to the people.
The people had to have a political stake in the land.
France was for the French people.
Britain was for the British people.
Germany for the Germans.
Italy for the Italians, etc, etc.
This was where Nationalism, along with all its flaws, was derived.
Although Napoleon was the first European ruler to restore full citizenship rights to Jewish people, Napoleon did not last, and so those full citizenship rights didn't last either.
These countries clearly made it known that Jews would not be considered full citizens, so therefore the idea was born amongst the Jews that they should have a country of their own.
But what country or land would that be?
What part of the world held a common place for all Jews?
The land of Jewish ancestry - Israel.
In early 19th century Britain, a young man of Jewish parentage was determined to change to make change from within. (At that time, one had to be baptised Christian to be a British parliamentarian. Disraeli took that step to launch his political career.) The opportunity arose in 1874 upon Disraeli's election to the British PrimeMinistership. The Suez Canal project was on the point of bankruptcy. A 3-way deal was agreed upon between Disraeli, wealthy London banker Lionel Rothschild and Queen Victoria, for Britain to take over control of the project from the bankrupt Egyptians. The unofficial agreement was for practising Jews to have full citizenship rights in Britain, including being eligible to stand for Parliament.
After the expulsion of Jews from Spain, during the Inquisition, Jews had started trickling back into the cities & towns in and around Jerusalem.
As a consequence of pogroms in Russia (1881-82), the Odessa physician Leo Pinsker wrote in his work 'Autoemancipation' (1882) of a home for oppressed Jewry. Founded after 1882, the Association of the Friends of Zion, joined by Pinsker, aspired to the colonization of Palestine by the Jews. Under the impact of the 'Dreyfus Affair' (1894), Theodore Herzl (1860-1904) composed his work 'The Jewish State' (1896) and, independently of the movements of eastern Jewry, established the Zionist movement.
The Jewish question became a national question to be solved by the Jews. At the 1st Zionist World Congress at Basle (1897), a strong political organization was created; the Basle programme defined as the aim of Zionism 'the establishment for the Jewish people of a home in Palestine, to be secured by international law'.
Cultural Zionism aspired to make Palestine an intellectual centre; this was to be done through detailed political, cultural & colonizing work. Its radiating influence was to lead the Jews of the world to internal unity. Unlike political Zionism, cultural Zionism was able to wait for the realization of statehood. Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) endeavoured to establish a synthesis of both Zionist schools of thought. It found practical realization in the establishment of the Zionist Palestine office in Jaffa (1907) and of the Hebrew University (1918).
In reaction against the Zionist movement, the 'Protocols of Zion' (1905) appeared. Published in Germany by former army captain Muller Von Hausen (a friend of the German Field Marshall Erich von Ludendorff), this forgery intensified antisemitism.
1917 - The Pledge of Lord Balfour for the establishment of a national home for the Jews in Palestine.
(This has been taken from The Penguin Atlas Of World History, Vol.2, Penguin, 1995 edition)
To be continued.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Ian4,
* I would disagree. I think if you had a vote, most Aussies would be on the Israel/USA side. We have stronger links with both of those countries, and let's be honest, if a terrorism act occurs in Australia, it won't be from a Jew or an American...but more than likely from an Islam residing in this country. I think this would have some bearing also on what side most Aussies would be on.
* Israel is 'bombing the crap' out of Lebanon, because Lebanon has failed time and time again to keep Hezbollah under control within it's own borders. Even now, rockets are being transported from Syria/Iran into Lebanon, to help Hezbollah.
Secondly, this latest conflict began because Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers and have them in Lebanon.
Obviously Lebanon is either:
a) not able to control what happens within their own borders
b) is harbouring Hezbollah and letting them do whatever they want
Also Ian, Hezbollah in Lebanon isn't just some bunch of ragtag blokes running around with a machine-gun and a couple of hand-grenades between them....they have rockets and missile sites set-up in southern Lebanon, and are fully organised. They aren't some covert group that Lebanon have been unable to find or close down.
Hezbollah started this latest conflict, Lebanon have been weak to keep Hezbollah under control, and I guess Israel think, "Well, if you can't control Hezbollah, then we will!".
The kidnapping of the soldiers being the last straw to kick Israel into action.
The Lebanese Government have failed their own people by not taking responsibility for what happens within their own country, and by letting a terrorist group grow to the extent that Hezbollah have fully equipped rocket and missle sites set-up in villages and towns (hence the civilian casualties that are occurring)
The rest or the world didn't make the mistake of letting Israel get away with the bombing....where the rest of the world failed was letting Lebanon get away with Hezbollah accumulating arms to such an extent, that they aren't just a terrorist group, but a pretty well-equipped army.
That's where the mistake was made.
Ian4 said:
Ian4,
* I would disagree. I think if you had a vote, most Aussies would be on the Israel/USA side. We have stronger links with both of those countries, and let's be honest, if a terrorism act occurs in Australia, it won't be from a Jew or an American...but more than likely from an Islam residing in this country. I think this would have some bearing also on what side most Aussies would be on.
* Israel is 'bombing the crap' out of Lebanon, because Lebanon has failed time and time again to keep Hezbollah under control within it's own borders. Even now, rockets are being transported from Syria/Iran into Lebanon, to help Hezbollah.
Secondly, this latest conflict began because Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers and have them in Lebanon.
Obviously Lebanon is either:
a) not able to control what happens within their own borders
b) is harbouring Hezbollah and letting them do whatever they want
Also Ian, Hezbollah in Lebanon isn't just some bunch of ragtag blokes running around with a machine-gun and a couple of hand-grenades between them....they have rockets and missile sites set-up in southern Lebanon, and are fully organised. They aren't some covert group that Lebanon have been unable to find or close down.
Hezbollah started this latest conflict, Lebanon have been weak to keep Hezbollah under control, and I guess Israel think, "Well, if you can't control Hezbollah, then we will!".
The kidnapping of the soldiers being the last straw to kick Israel into action.
The Lebanese Government have failed their own people by not taking responsibility for what happens within their own country, and by letting a terrorist group grow to the extent that Hezbollah have fully equipped rocket and missle sites set-up in villages and towns (hence the civilian casualties that are occurring)
The rest or the world didn't make the mistake of letting Israel get away with the bombing....where the rest of the world failed was letting Lebanon get away with Hezbollah accumulating arms to such an extent, that they aren't just a terrorist group, but a pretty well-equipped army.
That's where the mistake was made.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Chapter 5.2 - Zionism, 1918 - 1948
What led to the creation of the state of Israel, continued.
After WWI, and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the political divisions of the Middle East changed dramatically.
Syria, 1918-20, Prince Feisal (Lawrence of Arabia's mate) proclaimed himself king, but after opposition from other Arabs was expelled. Syria was then mandated to the French.
Iraq, 1919, was initially a mandate for Britain. In 1921, the just deposed Feisal of Syria was proclaimed as king of Iraq. In 1930, Britain recognised Iraqi independence.
Transjordan, 1921, Abdullah ibn Hussein became the Emir. In 1923, Transjordan was separated from Palestine, as a buffer against central Arabia. Transjordan became Britain's closest ally in the Middle East.
Palestine, 1920, in disregard to the Balfour Declaration, a British mandate over Palestine was established. Struggles between Arabs & Jews continued.
The basis for the racial policies of the Nazis in Germany was:
1. the race ideology,
2. the desire to find a scapegoat to blame for the defeat of 1918, and
3. the singling out of an enemy, a practice without which the totalitarian form of government cannot function.
I don't want to get into what details took place during the Holocaust, so to go over it quickly, it began in 1933, and finished in 1945 with the perishing of 6,000,000 Jews. Most of the countries occupied by the Germans in WW2 co-operated with the Holocaust. The only resistance was put up by Finland, Italy, Bulgaria & Denmark.
The holocaust in itself is not the root for Zionism. The Holocaust was merely a repeat of what had happened again and again to the Jewish people. What became clear to Holocaust survivors and to other Jews around the world is that if there was to be a Jewish homeland then the Jews would have to create it themselves. Just as the Greeks had done in the 1830s, the Italians in the 1850s, the Germans in the 1860s, the Bulgars in the 1870s, and many other countries post WWI & WW2. If the Jews were to have a homeland, it was in their hands to do so.
Organised by the Jewish Agency (the unofficial govt), the Histadrut (General Federation of Labour, Enterprise & Education), and the National Fund, more land in Palestine was being purchased from the Arabs for Jewish settlement. By 1939, before WW2, 33% of the population and 12% of the soil of Palestine were Jewish. The resistance of the Arabs, who were economically backward and politically split into 2 camps (that of the Grand Mufti Huseini of Jerusalem and that of the supporters of King Abdullah of Jordan), intensified.
Between 1936-39 there was already civil war, with the British taking turns supporting the Arab partisans and the Jewish Haganah. Both parties rejected the 1937 Peel partition plan compromise proposals.
In 1939 the British govt caved into Arab pressure and limited Jewish immigration and purchases of land to maintain an Arab majority. The policy was fought by Jewish terrorists (Irgun Zwai Leumi). Faced with indirect British and direct German antisemitism, the Jewish Agency during WW2 took the side of the Allies and developed Palestine into a centre of Allied supplies, while the Arabs (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) leaned towards the Axis powers. In 1942, a Jewish Brigade of volunteers became part of the British army.
Yet after the war the British continued their blockade of illegal Jewish immigrant ships (the Exodus tragedy); concentration of Jews in camps in Cyprus and repatriation. Jewish terror alternated with Arab counter-terror.
In 1946, a British-American commission urged the opening of the borders to 100,000 Jewish immigrants. At the London Palestine Conference, the British foreign secretary Bevin found no solution for the problem; he passed it to the UN.
In 1947, UN Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended the partition of Palestine, approved by the UN General Assembly and the Jewish Agency, but rejected by the Arabs. The Arab Liberation Army occupied Galilee and attacked the Jewish Old City of Jerusalem.
In May 1948, the British gave up the mandate. Withdrawal of the British army and administration plunged the country into anarchy.
On May 14th 1948, Proclamation of the state of Israel by the Jewish National Council (under the chair of Ben Gurion); the attack by the Arab League - interrupted by UN mediation efforts (Jun-Jul) - was repulsed (Israeli air superiority); flight by sections of the Arab population (into the Jerusalem ghettos by order of the Grand Mufti); Jewish terrorists murdered the UN emissary Count Bernadotte. Following fighting in the Negev desert (conquest of Eilat), a joint 1949 armistace treaty was concluded (Feb-Jun); partition of Jerusalem, the west bank of the Jordan river fell to Jordan, the Gaza Strip came under Egyptian administration; the lines of the front stabilized and became the states' borders.
After almost 2,000 years of waiting, the Jewish people once again had a sovereign state of their own. It wasn't given to them, they had taken it & created it themselves.
(Again, this has been taken from The Penguin Atlas Of World History, Vol.2, Penguin, 1995 edition)
Chapter 5.2 - Zionism, 1918 - 1948
What led to the creation of the state of Israel, continued.
After WWI, and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the political divisions of the Middle East changed dramatically.
Syria, 1918-20, Prince Feisal (Lawrence of Arabia's mate) proclaimed himself king, but after opposition from other Arabs was expelled. Syria was then mandated to the French.
Iraq, 1919, was initially a mandate for Britain. In 1921, the just deposed Feisal of Syria was proclaimed as king of Iraq. In 1930, Britain recognised Iraqi independence.
Transjordan, 1921, Abdullah ibn Hussein became the Emir. In 1923, Transjordan was separated from Palestine, as a buffer against central Arabia. Transjordan became Britain's closest ally in the Middle East.
Palestine, 1920, in disregard to the Balfour Declaration, a British mandate over Palestine was established. Struggles between Arabs & Jews continued.
The basis for the racial policies of the Nazis in Germany was:
1. the race ideology,
2. the desire to find a scapegoat to blame for the defeat of 1918, and
3. the singling out of an enemy, a practice without which the totalitarian form of government cannot function.
I don't want to get into what details took place during the Holocaust, so to go over it quickly, it began in 1933, and finished in 1945 with the perishing of 6,000,000 Jews. Most of the countries occupied by the Germans in WW2 co-operated with the Holocaust. The only resistance was put up by Finland, Italy, Bulgaria & Denmark.
The holocaust in itself is not the root for Zionism. The Holocaust was merely a repeat of what had happened again and again to the Jewish people. What became clear to Holocaust survivors and to other Jews around the world is that if there was to be a Jewish homeland then the Jews would have to create it themselves. Just as the Greeks had done in the 1830s, the Italians in the 1850s, the Germans in the 1860s, the Bulgars in the 1870s, and many other countries post WWI & WW2. If the Jews were to have a homeland, it was in their hands to do so.
Organised by the Jewish Agency (the unofficial govt), the Histadrut (General Federation of Labour, Enterprise & Education), and the National Fund, more land in Palestine was being purchased from the Arabs for Jewish settlement. By 1939, before WW2, 33% of the population and 12% of the soil of Palestine were Jewish. The resistance of the Arabs, who were economically backward and politically split into 2 camps (that of the Grand Mufti Huseini of Jerusalem and that of the supporters of King Abdullah of Jordan), intensified.
Between 1936-39 there was already civil war, with the British taking turns supporting the Arab partisans and the Jewish Haganah. Both parties rejected the 1937 Peel partition plan compromise proposals.
In 1939 the British govt caved into Arab pressure and limited Jewish immigration and purchases of land to maintain an Arab majority. The policy was fought by Jewish terrorists (Irgun Zwai Leumi). Faced with indirect British and direct German antisemitism, the Jewish Agency during WW2 took the side of the Allies and developed Palestine into a centre of Allied supplies, while the Arabs (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) leaned towards the Axis powers. In 1942, a Jewish Brigade of volunteers became part of the British army.
Yet after the war the British continued their blockade of illegal Jewish immigrant ships (the Exodus tragedy); concentration of Jews in camps in Cyprus and repatriation. Jewish terror alternated with Arab counter-terror.
In 1946, a British-American commission urged the opening of the borders to 100,000 Jewish immigrants. At the London Palestine Conference, the British foreign secretary Bevin found no solution for the problem; he passed it to the UN.
In 1947, UN Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended the partition of Palestine, approved by the UN General Assembly and the Jewish Agency, but rejected by the Arabs. The Arab Liberation Army occupied Galilee and attacked the Jewish Old City of Jerusalem.
In May 1948, the British gave up the mandate. Withdrawal of the British army and administration plunged the country into anarchy.
On May 14th 1948, Proclamation of the state of Israel by the Jewish National Council (under the chair of Ben Gurion); the attack by the Arab League - interrupted by UN mediation efforts (Jun-Jul) - was repulsed (Israeli air superiority); flight by sections of the Arab population (into the Jerusalem ghettos by order of the Grand Mufti); Jewish terrorists murdered the UN emissary Count Bernadotte. Following fighting in the Negev desert (conquest of Eilat), a joint 1949 armistace treaty was concluded (Feb-Jun); partition of Jerusalem, the west bank of the Jordan river fell to Jordan, the Gaza Strip came under Egyptian administration; the lines of the front stabilized and became the states' borders.
After almost 2,000 years of waiting, the Jewish people once again had a sovereign state of their own. It wasn't given to them, they had taken it & created it themselves.
(Again, this has been taken from The Penguin Atlas Of World History, Vol.2, Penguin, 1995 edition)
As usual your post brings food for thought and a welcome smile amid the depressing gloom of a heartbreaking situation.Re: Not Good News From Israel
Thanks Rosy.
Yeah, it’s all too ugly to deal with.
And each and every murder depressingly counter productive. Difficult to conceive such a monumental lack of imagination!
Oh, for another RFC board upheaval to lighten things up.
Thanks Rosy.
Yeah, it’s all too ugly to deal with.
And each and every murder depressingly counter productive. Difficult to conceive such a monumental lack of imagination!
Oh, for another RFC board upheaval to lighten things up.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
A friend come over today that I had not seen for a while and like everyone else in the world we could not help talk about this terrible tragedy. He told me about an underground German website that shows uncensored the bloody horrors of what is happening there, said it has affected him greatly.
I did a general search of the name and sure enough it exists and sounds extremely frightening, I did not log onto it.
Anyway what I'm trying to say is if this website is as appalling and disturbing as it seems to be then maybe the images shown should be for general release and then everyone can see for their own eyes the shocking nature of warfare in the year 2006. Maybe then this insanity may just stop.
(no PM please because I wont disclose its webaddress)
A friend come over today that I had not seen for a while and like everyone else in the world we could not help talk about this terrible tragedy. He told me about an underground German website that shows uncensored the bloody horrors of what is happening there, said it has affected him greatly.
I did a general search of the name and sure enough it exists and sounds extremely frightening, I did not log onto it.
Anyway what I'm trying to say is if this website is as appalling and disturbing as it seems to be then maybe the images shown should be for general release and then everyone can see for their own eyes the shocking nature of warfare in the year 2006. Maybe then this insanity may just stop.
(no PM please because I wont disclose its webaddress)
Re: Not Good News From Israel
liverpool, i don't dispute a lot of the things you said... you made a few valid points. i guess i always try to be as impartial as i can when to comes to world politics. australia is a close ally the with usa as we need someone to protect us if we were ever invaded. the irony of that is we are now a threat in our own backyard because of our strong ties with the usa. and why is america hated in the arab world? because america's foreign policy is blatantly pro-israel. that is my basic understanding of things... but i will repeat again that i don't know a great deal about the history of the land, and i have phantom's history lessons quite interesting.
Chiang Mai Tiger, i too received an email similar to what you were describing about that website. it was very horrific to say the least. and no, i'm not offering to forward it on to anyone as it's been deleted from my inbox.
Liverpool said:
liverpool, i don't dispute a lot of the things you said... you made a few valid points. i guess i always try to be as impartial as i can when to comes to world politics. australia is a close ally the with usa as we need someone to protect us if we were ever invaded. the irony of that is we are now a threat in our own backyard because of our strong ties with the usa. and why is america hated in the arab world? because america's foreign policy is blatantly pro-israel. that is my basic understanding of things... but i will repeat again that i don't know a great deal about the history of the land, and i have phantom's history lessons quite interesting.
Chiang Mai Tiger, i too received an email similar to what you were describing about that website. it was very horrific to say the least. and no, i'm not offering to forward it on to anyone as it's been deleted from my inbox.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Yeah, that sounds like a pretty fair call Ian4.
I guess it's easier for you and I and the general public to remain "impartial" if we really want to....but I guess the Australian Government cannot take such luxuries.
If we side with the USA, because of pur past and present close relations, then that puts the Islams off side, and hence our current predicament.
If we sided with the Islams, then that would just about destroy any relations with the USA and the bulk of the Western world, which culturally/economically/politically/religiously, we are more aligned with.
Its a decision the Government has made, not just for now and this generation, but what direction our country heads in for future generations to come.
Ian4 said:
Yeah, that sounds like a pretty fair call Ian4.
I guess it's easier for you and I and the general public to remain "impartial" if we really want to....but I guess the Australian Government cannot take such luxuries.
If we side with the USA, because of pur past and present close relations, then that puts the Islams off side, and hence our current predicament.
If we sided with the Islams, then that would just about destroy any relations with the USA and the bulk of the Western world, which culturally/economically/politically/religiously, we are more aligned with.
Its a decision the Government has made, not just for now and this generation, but what direction our country heads in for future generations to come.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
It would appear that the Qana bombing took place because the IDF saw the house as a 'suspicious structure' rather than because rockets had been fired from or around it. That is, the IDF saw it as a potential cause of trouble rather than knowing it as an actual cause of trouble. Bad luck for the people sheltering there, I guess. Thankfully, the IDF regrets its actions. That makes it all better.
It would appear that the Qana bombing took place because the IDF saw the house as a 'suspicious structure' rather than because rockets had been fired from or around it. That is, the IDF saw it as a potential cause of trouble rather than knowing it as an actual cause of trouble. Bad luck for the people sheltering there, I guess. Thankfully, the IDF regrets its actions. That makes it all better.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Of course it doesn't make it better, it also doesn't excuse Hezbollah for firing Katyusha's into Israel willy nilly and they were doing that before Israel attacked Lebanon. Both sides are at fault and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any resolution to the situation.eight ace said:
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Israel has claimed it is acting in self-defence, in a proportionate manner and in response to acts of terrorism. The events at Qana, and other places, would appear to leave at least two of those propositions to be questionable indeed.
Israel has claimed it is acting in self-defence, in a proportionate manner and in response to acts of terrorism. The events at Qana, and other places, would appear to leave at least two of those propositions to be questionable indeed.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
As I understand it every new house is Israel has to have a safe room/shelter. Every village/town has shelters for those living in houses that don't have one. Israelis have been sheltering for the past few weeks. So the carnage in Israel isn't as great as Lebanon. What was it... 200 rockets fired into Israel overnight?
And yet many, many more civilians have been killed in Iraq.
As I understand it every new house is Israel has to have a safe room/shelter. Every village/town has shelters for those living in houses that don't have one. Israelis have been sheltering for the past few weeks. So the carnage in Israel isn't as great as Lebanon. What was it... 200 rockets fired into Israel overnight?
And yet many, many more civilians have been killed in Iraq.
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