Palestine and Israel

[eight ace]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

The principal offensive weapons of Hezbollah are unguided (and presumably unobserved) rockets used as artillery. Of course they have a potential for destruction and pose a risk to Israeli border areas, and are relatively cheap to produces. Hezbollah units are mobile and can blend into the population. Israel has the advantage of a large and sophisticated defence force equipped with US and domestic weapons including aerial precision guided munitions as used in the Qana attack. Their potential for destruction is considerably larger.

The IDF is being used in an extremely aggressive manner and in a way that is at best reckless as to civilian casualties, regardless of what IDF spokespeople might say. Of course Hezbollah is equally reckless as to destruction of civilian life - albeit with considerably less capacity to wreak such destruction. Why should I hold Hezbollah to the same standards as the Israeli government? Israel claims to be an example of enlightenment surrounded by savages - but often it doesn't appear so in practice. And don't assume that just because the Israeli govenment says that this is a fight for its life, that it actually is such a thing.

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

This really is a terrible situation. I wish that Hezbollah had never kidnapped those Israeli soldiers and equally I wish that no Lebanese civillians had been killed either. The scary thingis that if Iran (or to a lesser extent Syria) decided to become involved then the bloodshed would be many, many times greater. I really think it is only a matter of time before another Arab nation comes to the defence of Lebanon. Then it will get ugly.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

This really is a terrible situation. I wish that Hezbollah had never kidnapped those Israeli soldiers and equally I wish that no Lebanese civillians had been killed either. The scary thingis that if Iran (or to a lesser extent Syria) decided to become involved then the bloodshed would be many, many times greater. I really think it is only a matter of time before another Arab nation comes to the defence of Lebanon. Then it will get ugly.

Some good posts above from people from both sides of the argument.

One thing to remember about the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers - in the past this has been used as a mechanism for prisoner exchange or release for the Arabs. That is, the Lebanese or whoever grab an Israeli, some Lebanese or Palestinian prisoners are released and the Israeli soldiers are released.

I am not saying this is right, but it is part of the ongoing "games" between Israel and its enemies. It's a very tough part of the world and things that shock us here people do not bat an eyelid at there.

It seems that this time Hezbollah miscalculated and the Israelis used the kidnapping for an all out assault.

Again I am not trying to assign blame here but just pointing out some more of the complex context in which all this is taking place.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Hezbollah units are mobile and can blend into the population.

The IDF is being used in an extremely aggressive manner and in a way that is at best reckless as to civilian casualties, regardless of what IDF spokespeople might say.

And don't assume that just because the Israeli govenment says that this is a fight for its life, that it actually is such a thing.

eightace,
Yes, you are correct that the Hezbollah units are mobile and can blend into civilian-life...hence the civilian deaths, and hence the free propaganda Hezbollah get when civilians are actually killed.
It's like I said on a previous post....that Israel have a choice:
a) let the rockets rain down on Israel, and risk their own civilians getting killed, or
b) attack the sites where the rockets are coming from and risk killing Lebanese civilians
The difference between the two is that the IDF is a proper army, with bases and camps. They do not deliberately shelter amongst the civilian population, unlike Hezbollah, which uses the Lebanese civilians as 'shields'.
Israel isn't under threat from Hezbollah in such a manner that it is scared of being invaded. Hezbollah isn't that strong. So yes, in a way I agree with your "fight for life" comment. However, the Israeli Government does have a responsibility to its citizens to protect them. Hezbollah deliberately kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers to use as bargaining chips. They have done this before (article courtesy of one of Phantom's earlier posts):

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/15159844.htm

How many times do Israel have to go through this?
I can fully understand why this time, Israel have said enough is enough and is going all out this time to finish Hezbollah off once and for all.

This really is a terrible situation. I wish that Hezbollah had never kidnapped those Israeli soldiers and equally I wish that no Lebanese civillians had been killed either. The scary thingis that if Iran (or to a lesser extent Syria) decided to become involved then the bloodshed would be many, many times greater. I really think it is only a matter of time before another Arab nation comes to the defence of Lebanon. Then it will get ugly.

jayfox,
Its quite well known that Iran and Syria have been funding and supporting Hezbollah in all kinds of way.
This from the Parliamentary Library in 2003, profiling Hezbollah...well before the current crisis we have:

http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/rn/2002-03/03rn42.htm

Just a some snippets for people who can't be bothered reading the link:

Hezbollah is a radical Iranian-backed Lebanese Islamic Shiite group sometimes referred to by its English name, the 'Party of God'.

It has remained a powerful force ever since, with its established political wing holding seats in the Lebanese Parliament and its military wing gaining popular support as a de facto security force in southern Lebanon.

Amongst its stated objectives are the establishment of a Shiite theocracy in Lebanon, the destruction of Israel and the elimination of Western influences from the region. Its militant core is said to comprise some 300500 fighters, although there are thousands of active supporters.

Hezbollah and its factions are probably best known internationally for its series of kidnappings, hijackings and bombings against mainly US interests during the 1980s, both in Lebanon and overseas. It has also attacked the interests of other nations, such as France, and Hezbollah's conflict with Israel is ongoing.

Hezbollah has been credited with inventing the modern notion and use of 'suicide bombing', and is said to have provided training to terrorist groups HAMAS and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Hezbollah is assessed by many as still posing a significant threat to Israeli and US interests and its international wing has amply demonstrated its capability to conduct major terrorist attacks overseas. As recently as December 2002, leader Nasrallah urged Hezbollah to conduct a global suicide bombing campaign.

Hezbollah is believed to receive substantial funding from Iran (some claim as much as US$60 million annually), but is also said to raise its own funds through charities and various commercial enterprises.

Hezbollah is also reported to receive logistical assistance from Syria which moves weapons and equipment from Iran through Syria. As a result, Hezbollah is believed to be well-armed and trained, even possessing surface-to-air missiles, and is also said to possess a sophisticated intelligence capability.

Amongst the first public claims of a link between Hezbollah and
al-Qaeda was a Washington Post article in June 2002 which claimed that Hezbollah and al-Qaeda are increasingly cooperating in explosives training, money laundering, weapons smuggling and document forging.

Lebanon refused to freeze Hezbollah's assets in response to a request by the US to do so in November 2001, claiming that Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance group.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Must say,
I've had a look at a few of the other clubs unofficial forums and how each has dealt with this issue. I think it would be clearly fair that no other unofficial club forum has treated this issue with as much depth or intellect.

We may have differing views, and these may explode from time to time, but take a bow PRE.

 

[Ian4]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

This really is a terrible situation. I wish that Hezbollah had never kidnapped those Israeli soldiers and equally I wish that no Lebanese civillians had been killed either. The scary thingis that if Iran (or to a lesser extent Syria)  decided to become involved then the bloodshed would be many, many times greater. I really think it is only a matter of time before another Arab nation comes to the defence of Lebanon. Then it will get ugly.

jayfox, you'd think so wouldn't you? then you'd think the amercans will send troops and it really could turn into all out war

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Abdullah: Islamic nations must do more than talk

PUTRAJAYA: Islamic nations must resolve to come up with a practical plan of action to stop the war in West Asia and bring back peace in the region.

Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, in making the call said Muslim countries could not continue issuing mere statements of condemnation for violence as it was insufficient to express sympathy for the victims.

“We must help to rebuild Lebanon and Palestine. We must address the humanitarian situation.

“We must play a more proactive role in the present conflict and show preparedness to contribute forces for peacekeeping operations under the United Nations banner.

“Malaysia is ready to do that. We must also request a role for the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) to play in building the peace after ceasefire is in place,” said Abdullah in his opening remarks at the Meeting of Friends of the chair of the 10th Islamic Summit Conference here this morning.

The Prime Minister also called on leaders of Islamic countries to deliberate on and address the Middle East issue in its totality, adding this was no longer religious or sectarian issue but one on humanity.

Meanwhile, seven heads of state and government joined Abdullah in today’s meeting to delibarate and discuss on the developments in Lebanon and Palestine.

Joining the Prime Minister, who is also OIC chairman is Sultan of Brunei Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah, Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, Iranian President Mahmoud Admadinejad and Bangladeshi Prime Minister Begum Khaleda Zia.

Lebanese Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh, left, hugs Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad during the Meeting of Friends of the Chair of the 10th Islamic Summit Conference in Putrajaya on Thursday. - APpic
Also present were Pakistani Prime Minister Saukat Aziz, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Prime Minister of Azerbaijan Artur Rasizadeh.



http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/8/3/nation/20060803114648&sec=nation


and also this more threatening response from the Malaysian Government:



In light of the escalation of violence in West Asia, particularly on the continuous military aggression by Israel on Lebanon and Palestine, The Honorable Prime Minister of Malaysia as the Chairman of the OIC Summit has decided to call for the convening of the Meeting of the Friends of the Chair of the 10th Islamic Summit on 3 August 2006.

The Agenda of the Meeting is to discuss the current situation and development in Lebanon and Palestine for determining the action to be taken by the OIC countries. The Meeting is expected to urge the United Nations (UN) and the international community to demand the following:

1. unconditional ceasefire;
2. the UN Peacekeeping Force, which is to be deployed to Lebanon or Palestine, must include OIC Member States; and
3. Humanitarian Assistance from OIC countries to Lebanon and Palestine should be properly coordinated.


Countries attending the Meeting are Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Brunei Darussalam, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. The Secretary General of the OIC will also be attending the Meeting.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

[
and also this more threatening response from the Malaysian Government:

SNIP

...demand the following:

1. unconditional ceasefire;
2. the UN Peacekeeping Force, which is to be deployed to Lebanon or Palestine, must include OIC Member States; and
3. Humanitarian Assistance from OIC countries to Lebanon and Palestine should be properly coordinated.

I must say you have totally lost the plot if you read this statement calling for ceasefire, a peacekeeping force and humanitarian assistance as "threatening".

Unless of you course you see any collective action by Muslim countries as inherently "threatening".

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Seems an excellent step forward.

It might mean that the global Islamic political community are now going to take more responsibility in maintaining peace.

Both Lebanon, Gaza & Iraq would be excellent starting points.

Certainly much better news than hearing that 1,000s of Indonesian Jihadists are going to target Jewish centres around the world. Yep. So we've been told that the current situation is merely Israel's fault and is limited to the Israeli/Lebanese area. Now people around the world can hear what we always suspected, that this is part of a greater Islamic agenda against all Jews around the world.

I wonder how many innocent Australians will die because violent Islamists will attempt to hurt Jewish targets in Melbourne, Sydney & other cities.

About time the global Islamic community took some responsibilty for policing itself.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

[
and also this more threatening response from the Malaysian Government:

SNIP

...demand the following:

   1. unconditional ceasefire;
   2. the UN Peacekeeping Force, which is to be deployed to Lebanon or Palestine, must include OIC Member States; and
   3. Humanitarian Assistance from OIC countries to Lebanon and Palestine should be properly coordinated.

I must say you have totally lost the plot if you read this statement calling for ceasefire, a peacekeeping force and humanitarian assistance as "threatening".
Unless of you course you see any collective action by Muslim countries as inherently "threatening". 

Yes, of course any collective action by countries with heads of state that want "Israel wiped off the map" (Iran)...that 'Islams should unite for a final victory' (Malaysia)...we have Indonesia with it's weak handling of the Jemmah Islamiah's "spiritual leader", Abu Bashir, I find threatening....and now we have this:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bombers-australiabound/2006/08/04/1154198298155.html

So why should Israel, once again, bow to an unconditional-ceasefire?
They have been there, done that....and I can understand them going all out to try and finish Hezbollah once and for all.
They have a responsibility to stop any danger to their civilians, and any ceasefire brought about now would only give Hezbollah time to gather more strength and weapons from Iran/Syria, ready for the next attack.

People sympathise about the Lebanese civilians...and I do too..., however, it's a real pity that the Lebanese Government have failed their own people, and let Hezbollah use their citizens as shields, and use the southern part of their country to build rockets sites and missile sites in and around the villages and towns.

Why aren't the Islamic Council condemning the Hezbollah for using the civilians as shields? Where is the condemnation about suicide-bombers claiming the lives of innocent civilians?

If there is going to be a ceasefire, it needs to be conditional, so this type of conflict does not happen again. However, as we have seen in the past, and continue to hear and read, Islamic leaders and countries do not want Israel to exist.

Its a real shame the Islamic community were not calling for unconditional ceasefires, UN intervention, etc when Hezbollah were doing border raids kidnapping Israeli soldiers, or when Islamic leaders come out with this:

"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran

And its a pity the Islamic council weren't calling for 'peace', when the Iranian Prime Minister and other Islamic leaders continue to call for the elimination of Israel.

So Antman, have I lost the plot.....no, I don't think so.
Do I find it threatening when all these pro anti-Israel Islamic leaders get together....yes, I do.

Certainly much better news than hearing that 1,000s of Indonesian Jihadists are going to target Jewish centres around the world. Yep. So we've been told that the current situation is merely Israel's fault and is limited to the Israeli/Lebanese area. Now people around the world can hear what we always suspected, that this is part of a greater Islamic agenda against all Jews around the world.
I wonder how many innocent Australians will die because violent Islamists will attempt to hurt Jewish targets in Melbourne, Sydney & other cities.
About time the global Islamic community took some responsibilty for policing itself.

Phantom,

Here's the link backing up your post:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bombers-australiabound/2006/08/04/1154198298155.html

How many times have I said on this thread that Islam has only one aim...to rid the world of Israel/Christian/Western ideals?
Again, I stand by my sentiments.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Nice way to totally avoid the point again Liverpool.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Nice way to totally avoid the point again Liverpool.

I don't know if it is avoiding the point.

I think the point is what are the mission statements of the major parties involved.

1. Hezbollah - ?, possibly the destruction of Israel.
1a. Palestinians - independence (they've got that.)
2. Israel - security of its borders.
3. USA - to negate international threats to its security.
4. Britain - same as US.
5. France - development of its international nuclear technology export program.
6. Syria - a return to Lebanon.
7. Iran - dominance of Shia over the whole area that was the Islamic Empire circa 1450AD, Spain, S.E.Europe, Africa, Armenia, Western Asia. (Definitely the destruction of Israel.)
8. The Organisation of Islamic Conference - ?

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Nice way to totally avoid the point again Liverpool.

I don't know if it is avoiding the point.

I think the point is what are the mission statements of the major parties involved.

1. Hezbollah - ?, possibly the destruction of Israel.
1a. Palestinians - independence (they've got that.)
2. Israel - security of its borders.
3. USA - to negate international threats to its security.
4. Britain - same as US.
5. France - development of its international nuclear technology export program.
6. Syria - a return to Lebanon.
7. Iran - dominance of Shia over the whole area that was the Islamic Empire circa 1450AD, Spain, S.E.Europe, Africa, Armenia, Western Asia.
8. The Organisation of Islamic Conference - ?

OK - the point is that there was an innocuous statement supporting a ceasefire, a peace-keeping force and humanitarian assistance.

Liverpool saw this as "threatening" which illustrates how polarised and off-the-rails the whole debate has come.

 

[Legends of 2017]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

How many times have I said on this thread that Islam has only one aim...to rid the world of Israel/Christian/Western ideals?
Again, I stand by my sentiments.

Liverpool, I don't always disagree with you but I think you are wrong with this statement. If you had said 'militant' or 'extremist' or 'radical' Islam then I think you may find more people agreeing with you in this regard. I believe a great many Muslims are happy to live side by side with Christian/Western ideals (Maybe not Israel at the moment). It's only when the bin ladens, bakr bashirs etc make the headlines that this view is distorted.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

How many times have I said on this thread that Islam has only one aim...to rid the world of Israel/Christian/Western ideals?
Again, I stand by my sentiments.

Liverpool, I don't always disagree with you but I think you are wrong with this statement. If you had said 'militant' or 'extremist' or 'radical' Islam then I think you may find more people agreeing with you in this regard. I believe a great many Muslims are happy to live side by side with Christian/Western ideals (Maybe not Israel at the moment). It's only when the bin ladens, bakr bashirs etc make the headlines that this view is distorted.

I have made this point to Liverpool many times. I have asked him if he has ever lived in a muslim country, or how many muslims he knows. He has never replied and answers only by posting quotes from radical muslim leaders that he finds on the net.

In other words he has no real world experience of what muslims actually think or believe.

 

[FightingFury]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

How many times have I said on this thread that Islam has only one aim...to rid the world of Israel/Christian/Western ideals?
Again, I stand by my sentiments.

Liverpool, I don't always disagree with you but I think you are wrong with this statement. If you had said 'militant' or 'extremist' or 'radical' Islam then I think you may find more people agreeing with you in this regard. I believe a great many Muslims are happy to live side by side with Christian/Western ideals (Maybe not Israel at the moment). It's only when the bin ladens, bakr bashirs etc make the headlines that this view is distorted.

I have made this point to Liverpool many times. 

Me too!!
The majority of Muslims want to live peacefully,some radical or extremists don't.
Its a point seemingly wasted on liverpool.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman/Struggletown/LegendsOf1980,

Both of you keep saying I'm only quoting from "radical Islamic leaders"....and yes, they are radical, but they are leaders of Islamic countries which have a large bearing on the future of Islamic-Western/Christian/Jewish relations.

While I do condemn the extremism of some Islams who promote violence as the answer to their own agendas (Bin-Laden, al-Zarqawi, etc).....I quote and condemn the Prime Minister's of various countries who attended the Islamic Council meeting even more, as they have a more pronounced influence over the Islamic population than any mufti or extremist.

If these leaders are prepared to say such anti-Jewish things in the public forum, then what hope is there of peace between Islam and Jews?
How can we, in the Western world, have faith in that these Islamic countries are just as determined to rid the world of terrorist groups, such as al-Quaeda, when the leaders of these countries are saying things that more or less back the policies of these extremist groups?

Antman,
No...I haven't lived in an Islamic country, and I don't wish to.
I don't have to go to Antarctica to know its going to be cold there.

Legends/Struggletown,
There are millions of Islams/Muslims around the world.
You say that many of these Muslims are happy to live side by side with Christians/Western ideals.
My answer is a ...."maybe".
If the extremist lobby of the Islamic religion is the minority, then why aren't the majority of Islams protesting just as loud as we are, against these extremists?
Why are countries like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Malaysia, Indonesia...supporting such extremism, if extremism is the minority?
Where are the protest rallies from the Lebanese denouncing the way Hezbollah have taken over the southern part of Lebanon?
While it would be nice to think that extremism is in the minority, and while it would be fantastic to think that one day Islams and Jews (for example) could live in harmony, I'm afraid the hatred shown towards the West by Islamic countries and their leaders is far too ingrained...and the power of the 'moderate Islam' too weak...to make a difference.
Yes, I hope there are some Islams here that are happy to practice their religion here as well as live the Aussie way, and enjoy the lifestyle we lead...they are not doing enough to rid their own religion of the extremist and hatred that many of their fellow Islams are practicing, right here in Australia.

 

[Legends of 2017]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman/Struggletown/LegendsOf1980,

Both of you keep saying I'm only quoting from "radical Islamic leaders"....and yes, they are radical, but they are leaders of Islamic countries which have a large bearing on the future of Islamic-Western/Christian/Jewish relations.

While I do condemn the extremism of some Islams who promote violence as the answer to their own agendas (Bin-Laden, al-Zarqawi, etc).....I quote and condemn the Prime Minister's of various countries who attended the Islamic Council meeting even more, as they have a more pronounced influence over the Islamic population than any mufti or extremist.

If these leaders are prepared to say such anti-Jewish things in the public forum, then what hope is there of peace between Islam and Jews?
How can we, in the Western world, have faith in that these Islamic countries are just as determined to rid the world of terrorist groups, such as al-Quaeda, when the leaders of these countries are saying things that more or less back the policies of these extremist groups?

Antman,
No...I haven't lived in an Islamic country, and I don't wish to.
I don't have to go to Antarctica to know its going to be cold there.

Legends/Struggletown,
There are millions of Islams/Muslims around the world.
You say that many of these Muslims are happy to live side by side with Christians/Western ideals.
My answer is a ...."maybe".
If the extremist lobby of the Islamic religion is the minority, then why aren't the majority of Islams protesting just as loud as we are, against these extremists?
Why are countries like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Malaysia, Indonesia...supporting such extremism, if extremism is the minority?
Where are the protest rallies from the Lebanese denouncing the way Hezbollah have taken over the southern part of Lebanon?
While it would be nice to think that extremism is in the minority, and while it would be fantastic to think that one day Islams and Jews (for example) could live in harmony, I'm afraid the hatred shown towards the West by Islamic countries and their leaders is far too ingrained...and the power of the 'moderate Islam' too weak...to make a difference.
Yes, I hope there are some Islams here that are happy to practice their religion here as well as live the Aussie way, and enjoy the lifestyle we lead...they are not doing enough to rid their own religion of the extremist and hatred that many of their fellow Islams are practicing, right here in Australia.

Liverpool, does this mean you believe all Catholics are terrorists because the IRA is? Or all caucasian people racist because the KKK is? I didn't think you would.
'Moderate' Islamic leaders do condone extremists, unfortunately that doesn't sell newspapers or rate on tv. Should the Pope or any priest continually have to defend their religion everytime the IRA strike? It's one example, I know, but reverse the roles. Muslims here just want to live their lives, like we all do. (Except the militants, but that is the individual).
As for Lebanon, I know what you are saying, but this is from my limited knowledge. Syria occupied Lebanon, they armed Hezbollah to the point where they are more powerful than Lebanon's military. The Lebanese government didn't want trouble for it's people, having been through so much, they turned a blind eye to it, knowing to put them down would be bloody and costly, as well as facing Syria again. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that count anyone please.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman/Struggletown/LegendsOf1980,

Both of you keep saying I'm only quoting from "radical Islamic leaders"....and yes, they are radical, but they are leaders of Islamic countries which have a large bearing on the future of Islamic-Western/Christian/Jewish relations.

They do - but stop generalising and saying every Muslim in the world wants to wipe out every other religion there is.

While I do condemn the extremism of some Islams who promote violence as the answer to their own agendas (Bin-Laden, al-Zarqawi, etc).....I quote and condemn the Prime Minister's of various countries who attended the Islamic Council meeting even more, as they have a more pronounced influence over the Islamic population than any mufti or extremist.

If these leaders are prepared to say such anti-Jewish things in the public forum, then what hope is there of peace between Islam and Jews?

I re-read your whole post above again regarding the statements from the meeting of Islamic heads of state and still can find nothing anti-Jewish or anti-semitic. Israel is not even mentioned! Do you even read the stuff you post? Or do you just assume that because its an Islamic council they must be saying lets blow everyone up.

Lets look at what was actually said.

“We must help to rebuild Lebanon and Palestine. We must address the humanitarian situation."

OK

“We must play a more proactive role in the present conflict and show preparedness to contribute forces for peacekeeping operations under the United Nations banner. "

OK

The Prime Minister also called on leaders of Islamic countries to deliberate on and address the Middle East issue in its totality, adding this was no longer religious or sectarian issue but one on humanity. "

Don't see any anti-Israeli or anti-semitic pro-terrorist propaganda there.

So we have some Islamic countries getting together, and saying lets do what we can for peace in the region, provide peacekeepers, and lets do this NOT because we are Islamic but because it is a humanitarian issue.

However you read all this as THREATENING. Because Islamic leaders could never say anything positive or nice I suppose.

Antman,
No...I haven't lived in an Islamic country, and I don't wish to.
I don't have to go to Antarctica to know its going to be cold there.

Translation - I am happy in my ignorance and prejudice, and don't wish to have my world view challenged by actually communicating with people that I prefer to demonise.

Legends/Struggletown,
There are millions of Islams/Muslims around the world.
You say that many of these Muslims are happy to live side by side with Christians/Western ideals.
My answer is a ...."maybe".

You would not know - again you do not know any Muslim people, and you have not been to a muslim country. And yet you claim to know what 1 billion people round the world think. I am white, blue-eyed, light brown haired. I am an atheist. I have travelled through muslim and other countries. And yet in any muslim country I have been to I have been welcomed into people's homes, offered food, often by poor people who would earn less in a year than I do in a month.

These people were muslim. They knew I was not muslim. And yet they were happy to offer me whatever they had. This is why I have hope for the future of mankind because we are all human, and many of us on the planet recognise that.

If the extremist lobby of the Islamic religion is the minority, then why aren't the majority of Islams protesting just as loud as we are, against these extremists?
Why are countries like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Malaysia, Indonesia...supporting such extremism, if extremism is the minority?
Where are the protest rallies from the Lebanese denouncing the way Hezbollah have taken over the southern part of Lebanon?
While it would be nice to think that extremism is in the minority, and while it would be fantastic to think that one day Islams and Jews (for example) could live in harmony, I'm afraid the hatred shown towards the West by Islamic countries and their leaders is far too ingrained...and the power of the 'moderate Islam' too weak...to make a difference.
Yes, I hope there are some Islams here that are happy to practice their religion here as well as live the Aussie way, and enjoy the lifestyle we lead...they are not doing enough to rid their own religion of the extremist and hatred that many of their fellow Islams are practicing, right here in Australia.

At least here you do acknowledge there is a moderate Islam - this is a big step for you. Congratulations. Many muslims do speak out and in some countries they pay for this severely. In other countries there is an ongoing and robust debate about how far Islam and Sharia law for example should penetrate into civil society.

For example, many Lebanese are VERY critical of Hezbollah for making an executive decision that has plunged the country into war.

You would not know this because your knowledge of Islam, and events that happen in muslim countries is very limited. Except of course whatever statements you can trawl up on a google search.

Phantom at least knows what he is talking about, and respects the different peoples of the Middle East, even if he disagrees with certain actions or strategies. Likewise, I respect Israel and Jewish people, whether they are here, or in Israel, even if I don't agree with all the actions of Israel. I also know that within Israel and outside Israel, many Jewish people also profoundly disagree with many of the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman/Struggletown/LegendsOf1980,

Both of you keep saying I'm only quoting from "radical Islamic leaders"....and yes, they are radical, but they are leaders of Islamic countries which have a large bearing on the future of Islamic-Western/Christian/Jewish relations.

While I do condemn the extremism of some Islams who promote violence as the answer to their own agendas (Bin-Laden, al-Zarqawi, etc).....I quote and condemn the Prime Minister's of various countries who attended the Islamic Council meeting even more, as they have a more pronounced influence over the Islamic population than any mufti or extremist.

If these leaders are prepared to say such anti-Jewish things in the public forum, then what hope is there of peace between Islam and Jews?
How can we, in the Western world, have faith in that these Islamic countries are just as determined to rid the world of terrorist groups, such as al-Quaeda, when the leaders of these countries are saying things that more or less back the policies of these extremist groups?

Antman,
No...I haven't lived in an Islamic country, and I don't wish to.
I don't have to go to Antarctica to know its going to be cold there.

Legends/Struggletown,
There are millions of Islams/Muslims around the world.
You say that many of these Muslims are happy to live side by side with Christians/Western ideals.
My answer is a ...."maybe".
If the extremist lobby of the Islamic religion is the minority, then why aren't the majority of Islams protesting just as loud as we are, against these extremists?
Why are countries like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Malaysia, Indonesia...supporting such extremism, if extremism is the minority?
Where are the protest rallies from the Lebanese denouncing the way Hezbollah have taken over the southern part of Lebanon?
While it would be nice to think that extremism is in the minority, and while it would be fantastic to think that one day Islams and Jews (for example) could live in harmony, I'm afraid the hatred shown towards the West by Islamic countries and their leaders is far too ingrained...and the power of the 'moderate Islam' too weak...to make a difference.
Yes, I hope there are some Islams here that are happy to practice their religion here as well as live the Aussie way, and enjoy the lifestyle we lead...they are not doing enough to rid their own religion of the extremist and hatred that many of their fellow Islams are practicing, right here in Australia.

Liverpool, does this mean you believe all Catholics are terrorists because the IRA is? Or all caucasian people racist because the KKK is? I didn't think you would.
'Moderate' Islamic leaders do condone extremists, unfortunately that doesn't sell newspapers or rate on tv. Should the Pope or any priest continually have to defend their religion everytime the IRA strike? It's one example, I know, but reverse the roles. Muslims here just want to live their lives, like we all do. (Except the militants, but that is the individual).

Oh come on.
Do you miss his point, or deliberately choose to do so.

Most Christian people & governments deplore and would gladly & publicly denounce the terrorist activities of the IRA, and the evil doings of the KKK.

It is the inherent responsibilty of Islamic leaders too, moderates as well, to denounce terrorist activities of extremist Islamic groups.

Pakistan will do it when its terrorists blow up a mosque in the Kashmir.
They can do it when it is 9/11, and the U.S. is at stake.
So why can't the Pakistan leader denounce Hezbollah.
Too scared to methinks.

As for Lebanon, I know what you are saying, but this is from my limited knowledge. Syria occupied Lebanon, they armed Hezbollah to the point where they are more powerful than Lebanon's military. The Lebanese government didn't want trouble for it's people, having been through so much, they turned a blind eye to it, knowing to put them down would be bloody and costly, as well as facing Syria again. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that count anyone please.

On this paragraph no one disputes what you are saying. Yes, the Lebanese government chose to turn a blind eye to evil for their own convenience.
A damned poor government I say.
They did a deal to turn a blind eye on Hezbollah, now Lebanon is paying for it.
The Lebanese leaders should be apologising to their people for failing in their primary duty of national security.