Palestine and Israel

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Didn't that happen in 1770?
Didn't a group of aliens who had no connection to Gondwana Land come and claim it as their own.
Didn't they come and set up colonies in Sydney Cove for their convicts in 1788?
Didn't more of them come in the following years and almost exterminate the native aboriginal population.

If this is the case, all white men should be turfed out of Australia. Gondwana Land should be returned to its rightful holders. No immigrants from 1770 onwards have no rights to anything of this land they call Australia.

Just as we see the above proposition about Australia is absurd, so the same can be said of Israel. In fact Jews have been living in Israel since the 1500s, much earlier than white people in Australia.

Phantom and Liverpool have this argument completely back to front.

The Jewish diaspora had been living everywhere except in Palestine for hundreds of years with some Jewish settlements remaining and in continuous existence for the interim.

Again, because of Western guilt over the Holocaust Israel was created - thus displacing the occupants. Jews flooded back to Israel from all over the world - because they had some historical claim on the lands there.

So if the Jews were allowed to do this - then yes, by the same logic all peoples of non-aboriginal origins should be forcibly removed from Australia so the "historical" owners can return to their homeland.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Didn't that happen in 1770?
Didn't a group of aliens who had no connection to Gondwana Land come and claim it as their own.
Didn't they come and set up colonies in Sydney Cove for their convicts in 1788?
Didn't more of them come in the following years and almost exterminate the native aboriginal population.

If this is the case, all white men should be turfed out of Australia. Gondwana Land should be returned to its rightful holders. No immigrants from 1770 onwards have no rights to anything of this land they call Australia.

Just as we see the above proposition about Australia is absurd, so the same can be said of Israel. In fact Jews have been living in Israel since the 1500s, much earlier than white people in Australia.

Phantom and Liverpool have this argument completely back to front. 

The Jewish diaspora had been living everywhere except in Palestine for hundreds of years with some Jewish settlements remaining and in continuous existence for the interim.

Again, because of Western guilt over the Holocaust Israel was created - thus displacing the occupants.  Jews flooded back to Israel from all over the world - because they had some historical claim on the lands there.

So if the Jews were allowed to do this - then yes, by the same logic all peoples of non-aboriginal origins should be forcibly removed from Australia so the "historical" owners can return to their homeland.

Could all non-aboriginal people please leave Australia within the next 48 hours.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Could all non-aboriginal people please leave Australia within the next 48 hours.

Are you deliberately misreading my argument Phantom?

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Could all non-aboriginal people please leave Australia within the next 48 hours.

Are you deliberately misreading my argument Phantom?

No, I guess the manner of your expression left some ambiguity.  ???????????

I have read your statement 3 times and I am still led to the same conclusion.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

This evening, I have taken the opportunity to watch the film, Everything Is Illuminated, again. Whilst watching this film, I came to my own discovery. It was whilst contemplating this thread at the same time.

Rarely does one get to discover such answers to the questions of the meaning of life, existence, etc. This thread has given me the opportunity to search and discover the meaning of the Jews, Israel, and the Middle East.

Thank you Next Best Thing for beginning this thread. Thank you too to L&B and to others for challenging me to look further.

I think that I know the answer now. A bit like picking the solution to a thriller before all the chapters are read. L&B, you may have already discovered the answer because I believe that it possibly answers some of your questions too.

I won't reveal the answer yet. I'll wait for the last few chapters to be played out, so that everyone understands its meaning.

It's wonderful coming to the end of a search of discovery.
Thanks to everyone, one more time.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Mahathir was a complete nut.  Iran is fast approaching confrontation with the West and can be expected to say such things.  Hezbollah and Hamas are in the front line of confrontation with Israel - of course they say anti Israel things.

O.k....but if Iran is approaching confrontation with the West, and Israel is already at it with Hezzbollah....then where are all the anti-Islam "lets wipe them off the map" quotes from Western/Jewish/Christian leaders back?
Why aren't the USA threatening to use their nuclear weapons....when we have already heard the peaceful and non-violent Iranian Prime Minister threaten to use his to destroy Israel?
Also mate, you said it yourself that they can be "expected" to say such things....thats right...I've said it before on this very thread, that Islams, especially Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas/Syria/al-Quaeda, do NOT want peace...they want war, they want to destroy anything Jewish/Christian/Western....so while their threats can be 'expected', also their continued violence should be expected also.

You only have to look at the news tonight, and see them kicking and throwing things at John Howard's car to realise that violence is the only language these people know.

You seem to accept the pro-Israeli line very uncritically however.
And what is your solution - every Muslin hates us so lets blow the hell out of them?

I lean towards the Israelis more because of the following:

* Jews don't blow themselves up on buses packed with innocent civilians
* Jews don't fly airliners into buildings
* Jews don't behead people with a blunt knife, and video tape it.
* Jews don't want to eradicate whole nations or religions because they do not follow the Jewish doctrine
* Jews don't bomb tourist destinations packed with people from all countries
* Jews don't threaten nuclear war to wipe a country off the map

I apologise if I missed anything out.... :hihi

Now these may be extreme acts, but until these "peaceful Islamic people" start protesting and denouncing the extreme views of their fellow Islams, then my opinion will stay with the assumption that most Islams do not want to co-exist with anyone of another faith or way of life.
I don't think I need to live in an Islamic country to have an opinion and have no intention of living in an Islamic country.
I look forward to the day when moderate Islams take back their religion and we can live side by side...oops, that's me going back into my dreamland again... ...but one can dream, can't they?

Israel has repeatedly said they would be happy to start a ceasefire if the following happened:

* Hezbollah releases the 2 Israeli soldiers kidnapped
* Hezbollah stops sending rockets indiscriminately into Israel
* Lebanese Government decides to implement UN Security Council resolution 1559

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559

So far, Hezbollah does not want any part of it....nor Lebanon for that matter.
The bombardments and skirmishes therefore continue.

Yes, I had noticed you still had not answered my question. So the conclusion is that terrorism by Israel or Israelis is OK. Terrorism by Muslims is not OK.
I notice Phantom has not responded when I challenged him on what the opinions of Christian Lebanese actually think - they are not Pro-Israeli by any means.

I didn't answer because Phantom answered it and going by your subsequent posts, his answer is still not good enough for you.

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

liverpool, let me ask you a question

you despise the killing of innocent people by islamic terrorists, i understand. so do i.

how do you feel about the killing of innocent civilians by an army, namely the IDF?

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/07/israel_gives_bi.php

By Tony Nader,
Ya Libnan Volunteer
Beirut, Lebanon - Where do terrorists come from? They are not born with engrained hatred.

While the world watches in approval, with each entire family murdered, building leveled, bridge destroyed, ambulance targeted.

Extremism and ultimately terrorism is created by the actions of terror by a state which in turn are justified by the world's powers. Like clockwork Israel has decimated an entire country for the actions of a few. The unjustified actions of the Israeli military have left the rational minds of Lebanon to turn towards the irrational, as no sane mind can explain the death and destruction.

Israel says Wednesday's decision by key world powers not to call for a halt to its Lebanon offensive has given it the green light to continue.

"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world... to continue the operation," Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon said.

He said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

Included in Israel's definition of terrorists: the Red Cross, United Nations Peacekeepers, infants, women and children.

Now Al-Qaeda wants to join the fight. Great job Israel.

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

now an environmental catastrophe

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/87455845-BD62-4D4B-9F16-559AF4BCFD27.htm

Lebanon oil spill crisis

Saturday 29 July 2006, 0:43 Makka Time, 21:43 GMT

The Lebanese government has appealed for help to clean up a huge oil spill along its coastline created after Israel bombed a power plant.

The environment ministry says up to 30,000 tonnes of oil flooded into the sea after Israeli jets attacked storage tanks at the Jiyyeh power plant south of Beirut on July 13 and 15.

The spill has affected more than 100 kilometres of the Lebanese coast.

Yacoub al-Sarraf, the Lebanese environment minister, said: "We have never seen a spill like this in the history of Lebanon. It is a major catastrophe.

"The equipment we have is for minor spills. We use it once in a blue moon to clean a small spill of 50 tonnes or so. To clean this whole thing up we would need an armada."

The EU commission said the Lebanese authorities had asked for "urgent" assistance to clean up the oil.

Stavros Dimas, the EU environment commissioner, said: "Wars do cause enormous human suffering as we are witnessing now in Lebanon. But another aspect is also the significant environmental destruction caused by it.

"[The spill] could affect the livelihood and health of the Lebanese and people in neighbouring countries as well as the status of the marine environment in the region."

The government has also asked the UN environmental protection agency to assist in the clean-up operation.

Al-Sarraf said the cost of removing the oil could reach $40-50million.

Equipment

An Israeli warship damaged by a Hezbollah missile on July 15 may also have spilled oil into the sea, according to the environment ministry.

One of the main problems is that an Israeli air and sea blockade of Lebanon, in place since the war began on July 12, is hampering both the clean-up and the delivery of equipment.

Sarraf said: "To really clean it up we need access to the sea, which we don't have.

"We need more equipment and mobilisation but for that we need the hostilities to end."

Local environmentalists say the marine ecosystem could take years to recover.

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

hey liverpool!

you must be a US TV network exec? :hihi :hihi :hihi

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AEEFA95C-1ED7-4BD0-9CE5-7FEEC2613B68.htm

you gotta be! ;D

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

liverpool, let me ask you a question
you despise the killing of innocent people by islamic terrorists, i understand. so do i.
how do you feel about the killing of innocent civilians by an army, namely the IDF?

Look, any civilian deaths, whether they are Israeli or Lebanese, is sad.

However, the Hezbollah hide themselves amongst the civilian population.
They don't dress in army uniforms, like the Israeli army...nor do they have army bases...they store weapons and rockets in houses, schools, hospitals...anywhere where if Israel strike back where the rockets are being fired from, then it will make the news...."Israel Target Hospital" doesn't look good, does it?

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

liverpool, let me ask you a question
you despise the killing of innocent people by islamic terrorists, i understand. so do i.
how do you feel about the killing of innocent civilians by an army, namely the IDF?

Look, any civilian deaths, whether they are Israeli or Lebanese, is sad.

However, the Hezbollah hide themselves amongst the civilian population.
They don't dress in army uniforms, like the Israeli army...nor do they have army bases...they store weapons and rockets in houses, schools, hospitals...anywhere where if Israel strike back where the rockets are being fired from, then it will make the news...."Israel Target Hospital" doesn't look good, does it?

yet, you continually justify the actions of the IDF, you bring out this tired old line day after day. nearly 1000000 lebanese have been displaced. i am tipping that there are not many civilians left for them to hide behind. not many hospitals, schools, mosques, ambulances ar anything left for that matter

whatever makes you feel good liverpool.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

liverpool, let me ask you a question
you despise the killing of innocent people by islamic terrorists, i understand. so do i.
how do you feel about the killing of innocent civilians by an army, namely the IDF?

Look, any civilian deaths, whether they are Israeli or Lebanese, is sad.

However, the Hezbollah hide themselves amongst the civilian population.
They don't dress in army uniforms, like the Israeli army...nor do they have army bases...they store weapons and rockets in houses, schools, hospitals...anywhere where if Israel strike back where the rockets are being fired from, then it will make the news...."Israel Target Hospital" doesn't look good, does it?

yet, you continually justify the actions of the IDF, you bring out this tired old line day after day. nearly 1000000 lebanese have been displaced. i am tipping that there are not many civilians left for them to hide behind. not many hospitals, schools, mosques, ambulances ar anything left for that matter

whatever makes you feel good liverpool.

If there are no civilians for them to hide behind, then how can there be so many civilian casualties from the IDF?
I would've thought that if there are no civilians for the Hezbollah to hide behind, then the only people left for the IDF to bomb, would be the Hezbollah?

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

If there are no civilians for them to hide behind, then how can there be so many civilian casualties from the IDF?
I would've thought that if there are no civilians for the Hezbollah to hide behind, then the only people left for the IDF to bomb, would be the Hezbollah?

Liverpool

If you want to argue a position, at least find out what you are talking about. Civilian infrastructure is being destroyed THROUGHOUT Lebanon.

The IDF has bombed extensively throughout Lebanon. The reason civilians are dieing is because civilian areas and infrastructure is being targeted. Look at how widespread the attacks are throughout Lebanon. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f2/Lebanese_Areas_Targeted_7-15_to_7-27.jpg

Look at the map in the link.

Look at the destruction in Beirut. Literally thousands of civilian houses have already been destroyed. The death toll is expected to rise with many hundreds of bodies thought to be still in the ruins of civilian buildings that have been bombed.

Sure, there are Hezbollah soldiers in Beirut and other towns and cities around Lebanon. Is that an excuse to bomb the crap out of cities and villages? To put this down to Hezbollah using civilians as human shields is totally wrong. Civilians are dieing because civilian areas are being bombed.

Thankfully the international community is now putting significant pressure on the US as it becomes clear that Israel is flagrantly flouting international conventions and that the cost in terms of civilian lives is becoming way, way too high.

I don't really expect a meaningful response from you on this as it is clear you don't understand the causes of the problems in the Middle East and uncritically take the US/Israeli line. You don't do any research apart from trawling the net for comments from Muslim despots as if they somehow justify Israeli aggression in the occupied territories and towards civilians and civilian infrastructure in Lebanon.

This is your right but it makes it futile to try to argue with you further.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel



22 children killed in the last Israeli bombing raids on Qana.

CEASEFIRE NOW!

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

If there are no civilians for them to hide behind, then how can there be so many civilian casualties from the IDF?
I would've thought that if there are no civilians for the Hezbollah to hide behind, then the only people left for the IDF to bomb, would be the Hezbollah?

Liverpool
If you want to argue a position, at least find out what you are talking about.  Civilian infrastructure is being destroyed THROUGHOUT Lebanon.
The IDF has bombed extensively throughout Lebanon.  The reason civilians are dieing is because civilian areas and infrastructure is being targeted.  Look at how widespread the attacks are throughout Lebanon. 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f2/Lebanese_Areas_Targeted_7-15_to_7-27.jpg 
Look at the map in the link.
Look at the destruction in Beirut.  Literally thousands of civilian houses have already been destroyed.  The death toll is expected to rise with many hundreds of bodies thought to be still in the ruins of civilian buildings that have been bombed.
Sure, there are Hezbollah soldiers in Beirut and other towns and cities around Lebanon.  Is that an excuse to bomb the crap out of cities and villages?   To put this down to Hezbollah using civilians as human shields is totally wrong.  Civilians are dieing because civilian areas are being bombed.
Thankfully the international community is now putting significant pressure on the US as it becomes clear that Israel is flagrantly flouting international conventions and that the cost in terms of civilian lives is becoming way, way too high.
I don't really expect a meaningful response from you on this as it is clear you don't understand the causes of the problems in the Middle East and uncritically take the US/Israeli line.  You don't do any research apart from trawling the net for comments from Muslim despots as if they somehow justify Israeli aggression in the occupied territories and towards civilians and civilian infrastructure in Lebanon. 
This is your right but it makes it futile to try to argue with you further. 

Antman,
That's fine...you have your view and I have mine.
And yes, I openly admit I take the Israeli/US line in this, as Lebanon could have at any time in the past, brought Hezbollah under control within it's own borders. That is their responsibility and they have failed.
Israel has also stated on numerous occasions that a ceasfire would start, if their 3 demands were met...3 demands that I think aren't too hard to implement, if peace was the priority of the Hezbollah/Lebanon:

* Hezbollah releases the 2 Israeli soldiers kidnapped
* Hezbollah stops sending rockets indiscriminately into Israel
* Lebanese Government decides to implement UN Security Council resolution 1559

Like I have said previously, I don't like civilians, especially children, of either side being killed....however, when Hezbollah continually use civilian areas (hospitals, schools, and villages) as 'bases' to launch their attacks, then Israel has an option:
* Does it not attack the village, and let rockets from that site rain down on their own civilians?
* Or do they bomb the village, take out the rockets, and risk killing civilians as well as give Hezbollah a propaganda victory?
What would you do?

Also, you claim the IDF is extensively bombing Lebanon....well, that may be true...but Hezbollah has also launched their new rockets that travel 50km into Israel.
I don't believe the IDF would deliberately target civilian populations just for the sake of attacking the civilians...what would be the point of that?
If anything, that would only bring more people against their bombardments.
That doesn't make sense to me.

And trawling the net....ha...come on mate, we all do that to find things to help prove our point.
You do it, I do it, we've all done it.
But the "Muslim despots" and their hate speeches aren't just some extremists trying to get attention, they are leaders of nations, one of which will have a nuclear weapon in the future, and won't be afraid to use it, or give the technology to al-Quaeda/Hezbollah/Hamas.
That to me, is scary stuff.

22 children killed in the last Israeli bombing raids on Qana.

CEASEFIRE NOW!

So Hezbollah aren't using civilians as shields?
Or are you going to tell me that Israel, in their wisdom, deliberately killed 22 kids?

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

i am sure hezbollah would comply to the israelis as long as israel

* return all arab prisoners being held in israeli jails
* returned the golan heights
* left all occupied land

sounds fair, doesn't it?

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

i am sure hezbollah would comply to the israelis as long as israel

* return all arab prisoners being held in israeli jails
* returned the golan heights
* left all occupied land

sounds fair, doesn't it?

All Arab prisoners?
Thought Hezbolah only had 2 soldiers? ???

And what do you call occupied land..let me guess....all of Israel?

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

i am sure hezbollah would comply to the israelis as long as israel

* return all arab prisoners being held in israeli jails
* returned the golan heights
* left all occupied land

sounds fair, doesn't it?

Items 1 & 3, providing all of legitimate surrounding Arab govts, Hamas & Hezbollah sign for eternal peace.
Item 2, strategically too important, sorry, not up for negotiation.

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

golan heights dont belong to israel and strategically mean nothing if there peace.

that is reasonable.