Palestine and Israel

[blx]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Gee liverpool, youve definately made up some story. If you read the text PROPERLY you'll notice that its the state of Israel that the Palestinians are against.

The state of Israel was created for all the misplaced Jews in Europe after WWII. Palestinians in their country (Palestine) were told to move out to refugee camps in the hills and the Gaza Strip. They were told that the Civil War would be sorted and they'd be able to come back to their homes when its over. They watched on as the weeks went by, as plane after plane of Jewish settlers came in from Europe and settled into their houses on their land. They're still there now, where they were put almost 60 years ago.

I find it very amusing that Jews are able to waltz in and take over another persons house and the rest of the world EXPECTS that person not to retaliate or feel duped. I felt sorry for the Jews after the WWII atrocities but you know what, if thats all they learnt from it then they deserve a life of continually looking over there shoulders as far as im concerned.

Whichever story you wanna concoct to paint Islam and Muslims as some evil entity is utter garbage. Fortunately for you, America will soon take over the entire Middle East and it will show them who the real god is (you know the one GWB refers to in every speech, the one with the blonde hair and blue eyes) and bring Democracy and Freedom to their countries. Oh and if they don't like it, they'll just kill them!!!

Blx,
And if you read my post properly, you would realise that this isn't about Palestine being against the state of Israel, as Bin Laden, the Iranian Prime Minister, and the Malaysian Prime Minister are not Palestinian...the only thing they all have in common is that they are Islam.
But please feel free to live in your "poor Islams getting persecuted" world...I leave you with this:



The day will come and we shall rule America The day will come and we shall rule Britain, we shall rule the entire world, except the Jews. The Jews will not live under our rule agreeably permanently, since they have been treacherous in nature throughout history. A day will come when all shall rest from the Jews, even the tree and the stone, which have suffered from them. Listen to your Beloved [Muhammad], who tells you about the most dire end of the Jews. The tree and the stone want the Muslim to bring every Jew to his end. You all know the Hadith."
Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris, Friday Sermon, PA TV, May 13, 2005


and this:


[The Israelites] have spread all over the world. Now Allah gathers  them in this land. He brings them in groups from all countries of the world, in order to fulfill Allah's universal law: Judgment Day will come when  Muslims fight the Jews, and the stone and the tree say: Oh, Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him. If the Jews were scattered throughout the world, how could we find them in order to fight them? The war between us and the Jews is a religious war. This is not a war over a path, a land or anything like that. The part of the Koran that was given at Mecca, before the Muslim even met the Jews, each chapter reveals who the Jews really are, their perversity and the danger they  present. Our war with them is a religious war, and we must arm the nation with the weapon of faith.
UAE Professor Mustafa Muslim, Al-Majd TV Saudi Arabia  June 19, 2005


Now, are these quotes just me making up stories and utter garbage again....or would you like to listen to what the Islams are actually saying???  :

This all escalated when the Palestinians were booted out of there country Palestine. Now im sure your a very balanced person to realise that if someone walked into Australia and told everyone to leave and then renamed Australia, Israel and told you that you could never return again you'd be very very upset at the least, wouldnt you? or are you just a cold ass dude who wouldnt give a hoot?

In any case, trying to reclaim a stolen land in my books is about as legal and valid as the Iraqis who are fighting to oust an invader who has just invaded their country. Now if you wanna paint that as evil then we might as well just go around willy nilly and invade any ole weak country (like bully boy America does) and cry foul when the residents revolt against us even better still, we could paint them as evil terrorist for even trying to do so :

You can grab any piece of extremist propaganda you like and post it here and draw any conclusion you wish, i could do the same thing but the fact still remains that after many many years of existence, Palestine no longer exist and Israel does. And in case you haven't managed to piece things together yet, thats the number one reason Muslims are so upset with Jews right now.

man i can't believe i had to spell that out for you, ABCDEFGHIJ........

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Now im sure your a very balanced person to realise that if someone walked into Australia and told everyone to leave and then renamed Australia, Israel and told you that you could never return again you'd be very very upset at the least, wouldnt you? or are you just a cold ass dude who wouldnt give a hoot?

They basically did and they what you say & were called the English, but let's save that for another time.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

This all escalated when the Palestinians were booted out of there country Palestine. Now im sure your a very balanced person to realise that if someone walked into Australia and told everyone to leave and then renamed Australia, Israel and told you that you could never return again you'd be very very upset at the least, wouldnt you? or are you just a cold ass dude who wouldnt give a hoot?

In any case, trying to reclaim a stolen land in my books is about as legal and valid as the Iraqis who are fighting to oust an invader who has just invaded their country. Now if you wanna paint that as evil then we might as well just go around willy nilly and invade any ole weak country (like bully boy America does) and cry foul when the residents revolt against us even better still, we could paint them as evil terrorist for even trying to do so :

You can grab any piece of extremist propaganda you like and post it here and draw any conclusion you wish, i could do the same thing but the fact still remains that after many many years of existence, Palestine no longer exist and Israel does. And in case you haven't managed to piece things together yet, thats the number one reason Muslims are so upset with Jews right now.

man i can't believe i had to spell that out for you, ABCDEFGHIJ........

Didn't that happen in 1770?
Didn't a group of aliens who had no connection to Gondwana Land come and claim it as their own.
Didn't they come and set up colonies in Sydney Cove for their convicts in 1788?
Didn't more of them come in the following years and almost exterminate the native aboriginal population.

If this is the case, all white men should be turfed out of Australia. Gondwana Land should be returned to its rightful holders. No immigrants from 1770 onwards have no rights to anything of this land they call Australia.

Just as we see the above proposition about Australia is absurd, so the same can be said of Israel. In fact Jews have been living in Israel since the 1500s, much earlier than white people in Australia.

I think I had better move onto the next chapter on the history of the Middle East, being the return of the Jews to Israel.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

That's what I was getting at but you were a little less subtle P. 8)

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

This all escalated when the Palestinians were booted out of there country Palestine. Now im sure your a very balanced person to realise that if someone walked into Australia and told everyone to leave and then renamed Australia, Israel and told you that you could never return again you'd be very very upset at the least, wouldnt you? or are you just a cold ass dude who wouldnt give a hoot?

In any case, trying to reclaim a stolen land in my books is about as legal and valid as the Iraqis who are fighting to oust an invader who has just invaded their country. Now if you wanna paint that as evil then we might as well just go around willy nilly and invade any ole weak country (like bully boy America does) and cry foul when the residents revolt against us even better still, we could paint them as evil terrorist for even trying to do so :

You can grab any piece of extremist propaganda you like and post it here and draw any conclusion you wish, i could do the same thing but the fact still remains that after many many years of existence, Palestine no longer exist and Israel does. And in case you haven't managed to piece things together yet, thats the number one reason Muslims are so upset with Jews right now.

man i can't believe i had to spell that out for you, ABCDEFGHIJ........

Didn't that happen in 1770?
Didn't a group of aliens who had no connection to Gondwana Land come and claim it as their own.
Didn't they come and set up colonies in Sydney Cove for their convicts in 1788?
Didn't more of them come in the following years and almost exterminate the native aboriginal population.

If this is the case, all white men should be turfed out of Australia. Gondwana Land should be returned to its rightful holders. No immigrants from 1770 onwards have no rights to anything of this land they call Australia.

Just as we see the above proposition about Australia is absurd, so the same can be said of Israel. In fact Jews have been living in Israel since the 1500s, much earlier than white people in Australia.

I think I had better move onto the next chapter on the history of the Middle East, being the return of the Jews to Israel.

Thanks Phantom!
Couldn't have put it better myself!

blx,
Do you see where I'm coming from now?
Do you think all white people should leave New Zealand, seeing you are of Maori descent, and probably think that your land was stolen also?  :

You are using the extremists and radicals' beliefs as a general example to tar all muslims with the same brush Liverpool.

Hitler masqueraded as a christian,am I as extreme or radical as he was because we shared christianity??

Struggletown,
So do you think the Iranian Prime Minister, the Malaysian Prime Minister, Hamas, and Hezbollah are extremists then?
You can read their quotes on the previous page.

And no Hitler wasn't a Christian....he was atheist, if I remember right.

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Chapter 4 - The Diaspora, 1000AD - 1850AD
What happened to the Hebrews after the destruction of the ancient kingdom.

Ok, so in 70AD there was the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
This was followed by the suppression of a Jewish revolt by the Roman Emperor Hadrian in 133AD. (That's the same Hadrian as Hadrian's villa in Rome & Hadrian's Wall in Britain.) Jews were no longer allowed to reside in Jerusalem, under a penalty of death. The Jewish national state thus ended with the loss of its political and national centre. Life in exile now began.

Many turned to Babylon, where they achieved prosperity under the Parthians. Persecution did occur under the Sassanids, but the situation did improve under the pre-Islamic Arabs.

Around 500AD the Jews in Babylon completed the Talmud, which consisted of the Mishna (the teachings) and the Gemara (dialogues concerning the teachings). With the advent of Islam further persecution of the Jews ensued, and they migrated to India, Armenia and into the Caucasus.

In 212AD, the Roman emperor Caracalla granted full Roman citizenship to all inhabitants of the Roman Empire. Those Jews still living in the Empire were included. They had settled in all parts of the Empire, Asia Minor, the Balkans, North Africa & Spain.

Hatred of the Jews can be traced to the Jewish decrees of the first Christian Roman emporers Constantine & Theodosius. Because of the religious separatism of the Jews, and their claims to exclusiveness, their image-free worship and the ritual laws of purity, the Christian Church saw the Jews as a threat to their own superiority.
Ie, if the Jews are the Chosen, where does that place Christians? The same proposition was taken up by Islam later. Justinian degraded the Jews to lesser citizenship.

Pope Gregory the Great (590-604) rejected the anti-Jewish policy and sought to win favour with the Jews. This new policy was strengthened by Louis the Pious (814-40).
The Church was forbidden to be involved with the creation and dealing in money. The Church saw the opportunity to involve the Jews as their usury servants (bankers).
This worked well until, unfortunately, the Church & some kings borrowed too much to finance the Crusades. The only way the Church saw to getting rid of the debt was to get rid of the Jews. This began in Europe around 1096.

By 1150AD, most Jews had been cast out of western Europe. This continued until the end of the Spanish inquisition, about 1492. Many Jews migrated to eastern Europe, Poland & Lithuania. It also saw the return of Jews back to the Levant, as Jews returned to cities of their holy land.

In Luther's reformation and after in the 16th, 17th & 18th centuries did see improvement in the lot of Jews in Europe. Mercantalism saw the opportunity to encourage Jewish involvement in new industries. Western Europe saw that it could prosper by bringing the Jews back, and so the Jews returned, enjoying the fruits of the new philosphical ideas of freedom, liberty & equality amongst all people. The best example being the Rothschilds, a family that was to create a banking network so powerful that it financed the British & its allies during the Napoleonic Wars, the building of the Suez canal, and most of the Industrial revolution.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman,
Islamic leaders admit it themselves that eliminating Israel is what their aim is....I've put on this very thread what the Prime Minister of Iran has publicly said, in front of a packed media at a university in Iran..here it is again in case you forgot:

Pool,

As has been said, its easy to find examples of muslims saying this or that. But you have said ALL muslims are like this when they are clearly not.

I notice you still have not addressed my question - Jews committed terrorist acts in the name of the formation of Israel - were they terrorists or freedom fighters?

Why was it OK for them to do this?

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman,
Islamic leaders admit it themselves that eliminating Israel is what their aim is....I've put on this very thread what the Prime Minister of Iran has publicly said, in front of a packed media at a university in Iran..here it is again in case you forgot:

Pool,

As has been said, its easy to find examples of muslims saying this or that.  But you have said ALL muslims are like this when they are clearly not.

I notice you still have not addressed my question - Jews committed terrorist acts in the name of the formation of Israel - were they terrorists or freedom fighters?

Why was it OK for them to do this?

There is a difference.

In 1946 groups such as the Stern gang acted directly against British instillations and its soldiers. The King David Hotel was the residence of the British High Command in Palestine. The Stern gang chose military targets.

In 2006 we see both Hamas & Haezbollah indiscriminently firing rockets at civilian settlements. The Israeli military instillations are clearly separate from the civilian ones. Yet Hamas & Hezbollah clearly direct their rockets at civilian centres, not at military outposts.

That is the difference.
Hamas & Hezbollah aim their guns at civilians, whilst hiding behind Palestinian civilians themselves.

The next words hopefully that you will be reading in the press will come from the Lebanese Christians. Since the 1970s they have been victimised and persecuted by the Lebanese Muslims. The Christians in Lebanon are crying out for the Israelis to free them from Islamic persecution.

 

[outcast]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

I guess that is a fair point phantom , though i would be curious as to how many
british civilians were in that region in 1946?

 

[outcast]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

If i was lebanon i would tell the U.S where to shove their 40 Million as long as they were
expediting the delivery of bombs/missiles to israel to continue their pounding...

 

[Tigerdog]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

So Israel is being aided by the US while Iran and Syria aid Hezbollah.
It is only a matter of time before this all escalates out of control and the Middle East region becomes the next place of full on war.
Didn't Nostradamus predict something similar to this, that in the end has us all fighting with sticks again?
Just what is the US agenda in all this anyway? Is it the control of oil or something greater?
And the same question for Iran and its allies. And do the Shiites and the Sunni's agree on whatever that reason is?
What a mess. :-\
My Iranian friend thinks that there president is crazy.
She is a muslim but like the Christians/Catholics/Protestants/Anglicans/Mormons etc they call themselves something but if they dont go to church services and pray regularly are they all deserving of being lumped into the same category? Even if that is their faith they dont all necessarily follow it blindly.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

So Israel is being aided by the US while Iran and Syria aid Hezbollah.
It is only a matter of time before this all escalates out of control and the Middle East region becomes the next place of full on war.
Didn't Nostradamus predict something similar to this, that in the end has us all fighting with sticks again?
Just what is the US agenda in all this anyway? Is it the control of oil or something greater?
And the same question for Iran and its allies. And do the Shiites and the Sunni's agree on whatever that reason is?
What a mess.  :-\
My Iranian friend thinks that there president is crazy.
She is a muslim but like the Christians/Catholics/Protestants/Anglicans/Mormons etc they call themselves something but if they dont go to church services and pray regularly are they all deserving of being lumped into the same category? Even if that is their faith they dont all necessarily follow it blindly.

Td, the Sunnis and the Shiites don't agree on anything....ever. In fact I read a report in an Iranian newspaper that even blames the other arab nations for what is happening in Lebanon.

 

[FightingFury]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

You are using the extremists and radicals' beliefs as a general example to tar all muslims with the same brush Liverpool.

Hitler masqueraded as a christian,am I as extreme or radical as he was because we shared christianity??

Struggletown,
So do you think the Iranian Prime Minister, the Malaysian Prime Minister, Hamas, and Hezbollah are extremists then?
You can read their quotes on the previous page.

And no Hitler wasn't a Christian....he was atheist, if I remember right.

Yes I do believe that they represent a militant or extreme version of Islam.
I also believe the majority of Arabs would like to live a safe peaceful exsistence.....don't you??

Hitler advocated a christian aryan Germany as part of his agenda.

 

[Rosy]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Chapter 4 - The Diaspora, 1000AD - 1850AD
What happened to the Hebrews after the destruction of the ancient kingdom.

Thanks Phantom. I'm waiting till all the chapters have been posted then I'll print them to read.

This is too mind-scrambling for me. I'd claim apathy but I really do care, it's too serious not to, but I don't think I'll ever understand. I probably don't need to cos it won't make much difference to the situation. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.

It's so sad when innocent people of any nationality are killed. I've never really come across serious racism in my life and this thread has been a bit of an eye opener. :'( :'( :'(

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

There is a difference.

In 1946 groups such as the Stern gang acted directly against British instillations and its soldiers. The King David Hotel was the residence of the British High Command in Palestine. The Stern gang chose military targets.

In 2006 we see both Hamas & Haezbollah indiscriminently firing rockets at civilian settlements. The Israeli military instillations are clearly separate from the civilian ones. Yet Hamas & Hezbollah clearly direct their rockets at civilian centres, not at military outposts.

Phantom, that is a good point - the targets of terrorism have certainly changed in the times since 1946. However, it is completely wrong to portray Israel as continually being victims of history as regards terrorism when they were active participants in terrorist actions to suit their own aims. In an earlier post you mentioned the film Exodus - great film by the way - if I am not wrong one of the most interesting characters is the charismatic Jewish leader who is quite prepared to contemplate terrorism and sets the younger, more idealistic character straight on this late in the film - sorry, I can't remember the character's name at the moment.

Also it is very easy to make the case that in fact Israel has practiced "state terrorism" for many years in the occupied territories. Even in the current campaign it is clear that civilians are being targetted and civil infrastructure is being systematically destroyed, even if Hezbollah is playing funny buggers with the figures. There are estimates now of between 300 and 600 Lebanese civilians killed and hundreds of thousands displaced. (For those of you who don't know what that means, it means leaving your home and all of your belongings except what you can carry, and leaving. There are no guarantees that your home and possessions will still be there when you return, if you can return. Imagine your own feelings in that situation.)

The next words hopefully that you will be reading in the press will come from the Lebanese Christians. Since the 1970s they have been victimised and persecuted by the Lebanese Muslims. The Christians in Lebanon are crying out for the Israelis to free them from Islamic persecution.

This is a significant falsehood. Despite the sectarian violence of the 1970s Lebanese Christians and Muslims have very positive attitudes towards each other. Lebanese Christians also are very strongly anti-Israel as the constant interference in Lebanese affairs by the Israelis often affects the Christians just as much as the Muslim populations. Lebanon is also their country and they consider themselves Lebanese.

See this recent survey on Muslim and Christian attitudes in Lebanon http://pewresearch.org/obdeck/?ObDeckID=41

I should probably state my own position re Israel at this point in case this is not clear.

My personal opinion is that the establishment of the state of Israel last century was a terrible mistake that displaced or placed in conflict many hundreds of thousands of people who had lived relatively peacefully for a long period of time - including Jews, Christians, and Muslims. The relocation of the European Jewish diaspora was supported by the West because it assuaged Western guilt for hundreds of years of Jewish persecution by Europeans culminating in the Holocaust. So essentially we have a Western guilt-inspired "solution" imposed on the Middle East - and the people of the Middle East have been paying for this "solution" for the last half-century.

However - Israel is now a state and is not going to go away so for me anyway the only way forward is to find a negotiated solution that will allow Israel to coexist with its neighbours. This will probably mean that Israel will have to return some of the lands it currently occupies illegally. This will also mean that the Arab states will have to recognise Israel as a sovereign state and cease acts of terrorism or incursion.

Situations like the current one make any peacefully negotiated progress harder to acheive, not easier. I tend to support the Palestinian/Lebanese/Arabic side of the debates because Australia's politicians and to some extent the media follow a very pro-US, pro-Israeli agenda.

I will leave the whole issue of the West's approach to Israel and the Middle East for another time as I am sure I could easily write another 40 pages on this topic alone and I won't get to the game today if I start on this.

 

[Tigerdog]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

So Israel is being aided by the US while Iran and Syria aid Hezbollah.
It is only a matter of time before this all escalates out of control and the Middle East region becomes the next place of full on war.
Didn't Nostradamus predict something similar to this, that in the end has us all fighting with sticks again?
Just what is the US agenda in all this anyway? Is it the control of oil or something greater?
And the same question for Iran and its allies. And do the Shiites and the Sunni's agree on whatever that reason is?
What a mess. :-\
My Iranian friend thinks that there president is crazy.
She is a muslim but like the Christians/Catholics/Protestants/Anglicans/Mormons etc they call themselves something but if they dont go to church services and pray regularly are they all deserving of being lumped into the same category? Even if that is their faith they dont all necessarily follow it blindly.

Td, the Sunnis and the Shiites don't agree on anything....ever. In fact I read a report in an Iranian newspaper that even blames the other arab nations for what is happening in Lebanon.

The Iranians seem to have a hatred for the Arabs going by what my Iranian friend tells me.

 

[Anduril]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

No one seems to mention the Jordanians. Are they not occupying parts of pre WWII Palestine?

 

[Liverpool]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Pool,
As has been said, its easy to find examples of muslims saying this or that.  But you have said ALL muslims are like this when they are clearly not.

Struggletown,
So do you think the Iranian Prime Minister, the Malaysian Prime Minister, Hamas, and Hezbollah are extremists then?
You can read their quotes on the previous page.
And no Hitler wasn't a Christian....he was atheist, if I remember right.

Yes I do believe that they represent a militant or extreme version of Islam.
I also believe the majority of Arabs would like to live a safe peaceful exsistence.....don't you??

Antman/Struggletown,
I'll answer both your posts together, if that's o.k, as its a similar topic.
Like you said Antman, it is easy to find examples of Muslims saying such anti-Jewish statements, and the worrying thing is that such statements aren't just coming from militant/extremist muftis preaching in backyard mosques, but from Prime Ministers and leaders of nations where Islam is the dominant religion.
It's not as easy finding anti-Islam quotes, or quotes from Western leaders demanding the complete elimination of the Islamic race...I wonder why?

One of these Islamic leaders (Iran) preaching this anti-Jewish vitriol will soon be armed with nuclear weapons....so Struggletown, if you do believe that his comments (along with the other ones I have posted) are representative of a militant and extreme Islam, then you can see why the USA have surrounded Iran by occupying Iraq and Afghanistan, and why Israel are hellbent on stopping Hezbollah once and for all, especially with Iran supporting them, at the moment with guns/rockets, but maybe in the near future, supplying them with nuclear weapons.

I'd love to live in a world where Islams and Christians could reside side by side, and respect each others religions and ways of life.
I've said this on various threads regarding racism, Aborigines, Cronulla Riots, etc.
However, I think that's just the naive side of me living in a dreamworld of mushroom houses and little goblins with wings....a dreamworld where some people on this forum still live.
Not saying that's a bad thing, but some of us think that Islams/Arabs have the same peaceful and multicultural values/morals towards life and existence that we have...and the fact is, they don't.

I do believe Struggletown that most Islams want to live in a peaceful, safe existence.......but in a world of Islam, and Islam alone, in my opinion.  :-\



Phantom,
Thanks again for your posts, and answering Antman's questions for me.
I couldn't have worded it better myself.

The Iranians seem to have a hatred for the Arabs going by what my Iranian friend tells me.

Tigerdog,
Maybe someone will correct me....but I know a couple of Iranians who escaped Iran when the revolution there occurred. They would have been persecuted under the new strict Islamic regime, as they are of the Baha'i faith.
And they speak Persian, not Arabic....Persians and Arabs don't get along apparently, so maybe thats what your Iranian friend means?

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

The Iranians seem to have a hatred for the Arabs going by what my Iranian friend tells me.

No one seems to mention the Jordanians. Are they not occupying parts of pre WWII Palestine?

Both these questions can be answered by the same.
The division of Islam places 85% as Sunnis, 15% as Shi'ite.

The Sunnis control Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia & the Arab peninsula, and most of Lebanon & Iraq. The Shi'ites control Iran. Syria is in a strange position. 70% of Syria is Sunni, but its political will is compromised by a teetering leadership.

Sunnis now want to live in peace, the Shi'ites want war.
(A month ago, in Warburton, there was a weekend conference between the various religious heads of the Islamic, Christian & Jewish communities of Victoria. This proposition was confirmed by all parties at that conference.)

Betweem 1947 & 1974, the Sunnis did try to overcome Israel, but following the Accord at Camp David, the Sunni policy is peace in the Middle East.
Egypt welcomed the return of the Sinai, and are happy with that.
The position of the Jordanians (Sunni) is that in 1948 they had an influx of fleeing Palestinians, many of which were Shi'ite. By 1974, they were so sick & tired of these Shi'ite Palestinians, they expelled them into Lebanon. Since then, Jordan has been happy to maintain a border with Israel along the Jordan river.

Within a year of the Shi'ite Palestinians arriving in Lebanon, the country was split by civil war. Tens of thousands of Lebanese Christians escaped Lebanon. Many of these came to Australia. Many thousands more of the Lebanese Christians were killed by the Shi'ite.

Israel around 1980 enterred the Lebanese civil war in the hope of restoring order and to assist in the protection of both the Druze & Christian Lebanese. (Strategically, I believe that at that point in time, Israel should have followed Jordan's example and expelled all of its Palestinians.) Unfortunately, the Lebanese Christians took that opportunity to get their own back by committing atrocities against the Shi'ites being held in prison camps.

Israel saw that it was too late to undo what the Lebanese Christians had done, and therefore chose to disentangle itself and withdraw from Lebanon.

In a nutshell, Iranians hating other Arabs is really the 1500 year hate that the Shi'ites have had for the Sunni. This is what splits Iraq today. (Strangely, Saddam Hussein was a Sunni. If the Western world knew in 2001 what it knows now, it would have have not removed Saddam Hussein from office. It should have merely neutered him outside of his own country. It tried to do this in 1991 after the 1st Gulf War, but you can't stop the 'Napoleon' complex of a confirmed dictator.)

Jordan, the country is now almost entirely Sunni. 40% are Palestinians, but these are Sunni Palestinians. The Shi'ite Palestinians were expelled long ago. Jordan is happy with its border on the river Jordan.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Antman/Struggletown,
I'll answer both your posts together, if that's o.k, as its a similar topic.
Like you said Antman, it is easy to find examples of Muslims saying such anti-Jewish statements, and the worrying thing is that such statements aren't just coming from militant/extremist muftis preaching in backyard mosques, but from Prime Ministers and leaders of nations where Islam is the dominant religion.
It's not as easy finding anti-Islam quotes, or quotes from Western leaders demanding the complete elimination of the Islamic race...I wonder why?

Mahathir was a complete nut. Iran is fast approaching confrontation with the West and can be expected to say such things. Hezbollah and Hamas are in the front line of confrontation with Israel - of course they say anti Israel things.

All of these are beyond dispute. What is in dispute is your ridiculous assertion that all muslims say or believe these things.

I'd love to live in a world where Islams and Christians could reside side by side, and respect each others religions and ways of life.
I've said this on various threads regarding racism, Aborigines, Cronulla Riots, etc.
However, I think that's just the naive side of me living in a dreamworld of mushroom houses and little goblins with wings....a dreamworld where some people on this forum still live.

I don't know who you are referring to here - no-one on this thread would appear to have a naive view of the problems and conflicts we are faced with in the Middle East. You seem to accept the pro-Israeli line very uncritically however.

And what is your solution - every Muslin hates us so lets blow the hell out of them?

Not saying that's a bad thing, but some of us think that Islams/Arabs have the same peaceful and multicultural values/morals towards life and existence that we have...and the fact is, they don't.

Many do. Some don't. Just like Christians or any other group you care to choose.

I do believe Struggletown that most Islams want to live in a peaceful, safe existence.......but in a world of Islam, and Islam alone, in my opinion. :-\

So you have an opinion on what the opinion of every Muslim in the world is? How many Muslims have you ever talked to? Have you ever lived in a Muslim country?

Your "opinion" is of what Muslims the world over think is worthless.

Phantom,
Thanks again for your posts, and answering Antman's questions for me.
I couldn't have worded it better myself.

Yes, I had noticed you still had not answered my question. So the conclusion is that terrorism by Israel or Israelis is OK. Terrorism by Muslims is not OK.

I notice Phantom has not responded when I challenged him on what the opinions of Christian Lebanese actually think - they are not Pro-Israeli by any means.