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Palestine and Israel
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What has Hamas done for the Palestinians under their rule for the last nearly 20 years?
Does anyone know?
Does anyone know?
What has the Palestinian Authority done for the Palestinians they’ve ruled for the last 20+ years.
What have they done in Areas A and B in the West Bank?
Does anyone know?
What have they done in Areas A and B in the West Bank?
Does anyone know?
I don’t think so. I’d reply but I couldn’t understand what you were saying I; your previous post.
Willo, you want to discuss cause and effect. You are right in a way, if the world began on October 7th, then you are right, the cause and effect was that Hamas attacked Israel and Israel fought back. but reality is that the world didn't start on October 7th, and if you want to talk cause and effect, ask why Hamas carried out the attack on October 7th. You don't have to support what Hamas did, I certainly don't, what they did was inhumane and abhorent, but you can still look at the cause and effect, and essentially Israel have been continuing with their expansion plans and frankly before October 7th, no-one gave a *smile* it would seem. Hamas decided to bring notice to this in the most barbaric way.
www.diakonia.se
So prior to October 7th, Israel essentially blockaded Gaza, leading to 70% youth unemployment, they participated in the most deadly period in the West Bank in decades and signed a decree to support another 500k Israelis taking land from Palestinians in the West Bank. If you want to talk cause and effect, I think thats clear what Hamas were acting out against. That certainly doesn't mean I support what Hamas did, what they did sickens me, reading what they did to both living and dead bodies sickens me, what they did to women sickens me, but you know what, I understand the catalyst, I also understand the catalyst as to why Israel is fighting back, but they are doing it in an equally inhumane and barbaric way. Just because they endured an inhumane and barbaric act shouldn't mean that they follow it up with the same. I think you mentioned the Munich olympics, so lets remember what happened there. Did they bomb the Palestinians out of spite, without regard for innocent life, nope, what they did was surgically hunt down the perpetrators and execute them. They have the 2nd largest spy network in the world (behind the CIA), are you telling me those spies in Gaza (and they have hundreds if not thousands) couldn't tell them where they were so they could attack them in a more surgical way? Why did they choose this method to attack? There were alternatives so why did they choose this option?
2023-2024 Hostilities and Escalating Violence in the oPt | Account of Events
This account of events covers the hostilities in Israel and Gaza as well as escalating violence across the oPt in the time period from 7 October 2023 until 7 January 2024.
www.diakonia.se
So prior to October 7th, Israel essentially blockaded Gaza, leading to 70% youth unemployment, they participated in the most deadly period in the West Bank in decades and signed a decree to support another 500k Israelis taking land from Palestinians in the West Bank. If you want to talk cause and effect, I think thats clear what Hamas were acting out against. That certainly doesn't mean I support what Hamas did, what they did sickens me, reading what they did to both living and dead bodies sickens me, what they did to women sickens me, but you know what, I understand the catalyst, I also understand the catalyst as to why Israel is fighting back, but they are doing it in an equally inhumane and barbaric way. Just because they endured an inhumane and barbaric act shouldn't mean that they follow it up with the same. I think you mentioned the Munich olympics, so lets remember what happened there. Did they bomb the Palestinians out of spite, without regard for innocent life, nope, what they did was surgically hunt down the perpetrators and execute them. They have the 2nd largest spy network in the world (behind the CIA), are you telling me those spies in Gaza (and they have hundreds if not thousands) couldn't tell them where they were so they could attack them in a more surgical way? Why did they choose this method to attack? There were alternatives so why did they choose this option?
Attachments
From Time Magazine.
"An estimated 10,000 Palestinian children have been held in military detention over the past 20 years, with Save the Children noting that they are “the only children in the world who are systematically prosecuted in military courts.” As of Nov. 20, Israeli forces had arrested as many as 880 Palestinian children this year, a practice made possible under Israel’s draconian military laws."
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
The rest of it makes for sad, sad reading AND a glimpse into what came before Oct 7.
"An estimated 10,000 Palestinian children have been held in military detention over the past 20 years, with Save the Children noting that they are “the only children in the world who are systematically prosecuted in military courts.” As of Nov. 20, Israeli forces had arrested as many as 880 Palestinian children this year, a practice made possible under Israel’s draconian military laws."
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
The rest of it makes for sad, sad reading AND a glimpse into what came before Oct 7.
Good post.Willo, you want to discuss cause and effect. You are right in a way, if the world began on October 7th, then you are right, the cause and effect was that Hamas attacked Israel and Israel fought back. but reality is that the world didn't start on October 7th, and if you want to talk cause and effect, ask why Hamas carried out the attack on October 7th. You don't have to support what Hamas did, I certainly don't, what they did was inhumane and abhorent, but you can still look at the cause and effect, and essentially Israel have been continuing with their expansion plans and frankly before October 7th, no-one gave a *smile* it would seem. Hamas decided to bring notice to this in the most barbaric way.
2023-2024 Hostilities and Escalating Violence in the oPt | Account of Events
This account of events covers the hostilities in Israel and Gaza as well as escalating violence across the oPt in the time period from 7 October 2023 until 7 January 2024.
So prior to October 7th, Israel essentially blockaded Gaza, leading to 70% youth unemployment, they participated in the most deadly period in the West Bank in decades and signed a decree to support another 500k Israelis taking land from Palestinians in the West Bank. If you want to talk cause and effect, I think thats clear what Hamas were acting out against. That certainly doesn't mean I support what Hamas did, what they did sickens me, reading what they did to both living and dead bodies sickens me, what they did to women sickens me, but you know what, I understand the catalyst, I also understand the catalyst as to why Israel is fighting back, but they are doing it in an equally inhumane and barbaric way. Just because they endured an inhumane and barbaric act shouldn't mean that they follow it up with the same. I think you mentioned the Munich olympics, so lets remember what happened there. Did they bomb the Palestinians out of spite, without regard for innocent life, nope, what they did was surgically hunt down the perpetrators and execute them. They have the 2nd largest spy network in the world (behind the CIA), are you telling me those spies in Gaza (and they have hundreds if not thousands) couldn't tell them where they were so they could attack them in a more surgical way? Why did they choose this method to attack? There were alternatives so why did they choose this option?
No, I don’t have to talk anymore about why Hamas did as they did. I’ve been through the past 100 odd years history enough times, answered every question 50 times. Nothing that had happened previously exonerates death and terror Hamas committed and still hold on to today with the abductees. You know the innocent people Hamas still hold today. It’s almost comical how the defenders and apologists of Hamas have forgotten about those innocent people.
Just as I believe iit doesn’t exonerate Israel’s actions and the death and injury toll in Gaza. But when I say that, no one believes I’m genuine when I say it. So to those people I say go *smile* yourselves. Your opinion means *smile* all.
I believe the reason they chose this method of attack was to eradicate the 22 (?) hamas battalions that were entrenched in Gaza. All at the same time. No going after thousands of individual Hamas murderers and rapists. Just one fell swoop.
I believe they had enough of Hamas previous bombings and rocket fire and suicide bombers. This was the final straw.
It’s always been obvious that Israel fights with disproportionate response. Hit them with a stick. They’ll slam you with a hammer. Kill one, they’ll kill five. Send a suicide bomber, they‘ll find a group of terrorists to blow up. Destroy a building, they’ll destroy a village.
It’s the disproportionate response that is supposed to keep the enemy in line. Does it work? Sometimes. Does it make more vindictive enemies? Of course.
Then rinse and repeat, it all happens again.
Do I agree with the ensuring death toll? As I’ve said numerous times. No I don’t. If others don’t believe my sentiments I couldn’t give a flying *smile*. I know myself better than those other plonkers.
Hey Willo, I feel you've been posting really well throughout (against the wind... haha) using reason devoid of the ideological and emotional responses you've attracted.
Interestingly only a few posters on this website keep bothering to post on this issue. Understandably I guess.
When it comes to war one has to pick a side. And despite written claims to the contrary on this very thread the arguments provided show ample evidence of which side each particular poster is on.
Was reading an article by Pulitzer prize winning journalist Bret Stephens recently who in the NYTimes I think it was pointed out that the 1,200 people Hamas slaughtered on Oct 7 would be the proportionate equivalent of over 30,000 people slaughtered in one day if it had've happened in the US due to their population differential.
Now try to imagine what would an appropriately proportionate response be to a regime breaking a ceasfire in order to murder in cold blood 30,000 people in America, rape and gang rape women, live uploading to victims' families of such rapes for fun, mutilate womens' sexual organs and bodies in general, torture by amputation of childrens' hands and feet in front of parents, torture parents in front of their children, abduct 12 month old babies and over 80 year old men & women, celebrate such abductions by dancing in the Gazan streets etc etc all captured on video so proudly by the Palestinian males who participated in this orgy of barbarism.
I mean what would a proportionate response by the US or any sovereign member state of the United Nations be in those circumstances?
I have no idea what that could be. But it should be applied to Israel.
Interestingly only a few posters on this website keep bothering to post on this issue. Understandably I guess.
When it comes to war one has to pick a side. And despite written claims to the contrary on this very thread the arguments provided show ample evidence of which side each particular poster is on.
Was reading an article by Pulitzer prize winning journalist Bret Stephens recently who in the NYTimes I think it was pointed out that the 1,200 people Hamas slaughtered on Oct 7 would be the proportionate equivalent of over 30,000 people slaughtered in one day if it had've happened in the US due to their population differential.
Now try to imagine what would an appropriately proportionate response be to a regime breaking a ceasfire in order to murder in cold blood 30,000 people in America, rape and gang rape women, live uploading to victims' families of such rapes for fun, mutilate womens' sexual organs and bodies in general, torture by amputation of childrens' hands and feet in front of parents, torture parents in front of their children, abduct 12 month old babies and over 80 year old men & women, celebrate such abductions by dancing in the Gazan streets etc etc all captured on video so proudly by the Palestinian males who participated in this orgy of barbarism.
I mean what would a proportionate response by the US or any sovereign member state of the United Nations be in those circumstances?
I have no idea what that could be. But it should be applied to Israel.
No, Israel shot any solution in the arse decades ago, which is why the only solution is for the rest of the world to impose a settlement. Israel has been kicking the can down the road for decades and show no sign of doing anything else. Fatah could sit down and negotiate with Israel, but they will get nowhere because Israel does not want a negotiated settlement, they want what Netanyahu had on his map at the UN in September last year - the lot.
DS
Oh, ok, that's your logic. Cause and effect: if Israel hadn't occupied Gaza, arrested people without charge, bulldozed peoples' houses, created one great big ghetto and controlled what could go in and out of the territory, chucked Palestinians off their land, etc, etc, etc - then Hamas would have had no reason to attack Israel.
You continue to argue cause and effect for Israel's actions but cannot see that there was a cause for Hamas' actions.
What Hamas did was reprehensible, but the Palestinians were getting ignored and getting nowhere in trying to get some sort of resolution, Israel certainly weren't interested in any resolution, so what should the Palestinians have done?
DS
Just as an aside the death toll in Gaza would be the equivalent of 4.3 million Americans on a population basis.
I was going to post other stuff but decided against it.
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Yes cause and effect.
We’ e been over the state of affairs and conditions in Gaza ad nauseum.
Neither Israel or the IDF were in Gaza. When was the last time they arrested anyone without charge in Gaza? When was the last time they bulldozed homes in Gaza?
You claimed this, now tell us when this was.
it can’t have been all bad. sintiger was telling us of all the great work they’ve done in Gaza. All the buildings, schools,, universities, hospitals houses, apartments etc. So now you’re contradicting what he said. And the6 e wasted all the $billions in aid on what?
There was no cause for Hamas to rape, burn, behead, slaughter and abduct innocent people.
That is not even an argument to put forward. There was no excuse, zero, zilch, none. For you to argue there was is just ridiculous and an outright anathema. And people want to have a go at me.
So it was reprehensible……so what should the Palestinians have done?
Once again, I’ve already answered that. You can’t have 2 governments for one people.
They have to get their own house in order. Have an International body (not the useless UN Security Council) oversee fair and democratic elections for the Palestinian people. Then as part of their mandate, sit and negotiate with Israel under the guidance of a International Conciliator.
During the previous 20 years Israel wouldn’t even bother to attempt to sit down with Hamas (with their charter for the destruction of Israel, death to all Jews there, then internationally) who would blame them.
Then you had another government (thePA) in the West Bank. How do you negotiate with 2 governments, one people? You can’t
So the Palestinians needed to sort themselves out first and foremost.
Anyone with a brain and an ounce of commonsense could see that.
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