Palestine and Israel

[K3]

Oh dear

There is a basic truth about your posting which is the vast majority of people who comment on it get the same impression about it which is you take a a very simplistic view to the carnage in Gaza. That view is the actions of Hamas in October 7 can be separated from 75 years of history and anything Israel does is justified by those actions. It is seen as victim blaming

Maybe you should look at what you write rather than getting narky at me and others. Even your outrage “ show me one post where I say Israel is doing the right thing” shows a lack of understanding of the inference of what you write. That’s not what you specifically say but your constant refrain is “blame Hamas”. What that says is Israel can kill and injure all those people and destroy all that property because it is not their fault. They don’t have a choice.

Of course they have a choice

Your comments on billions of $ of aid and not getting their house in order is breathtaking in its ignorance. They are under siege in Gaza but they built a community in an area that is one of the most overpopulated in the world. They built hospitals and schools and universities despite being effectively cut off from the world. They did all this despite having all hope of an autonomous Palestinian state taken from them over the years.

Unfortunately most of it is now gone.

Facts.

 

[Willo]

Oh dear

There is a basic truth about your posting which is the vast majority of people who comment on it get the same impression about it which is you take a a very simplistic view to the carnage in Gaza. That view is the actions of Hamas in October 7 can be separated from 75 years of history and anything Israel does is justified by those actions. It is seen as victim blaming

People can get whatever impression they like. It doesn’t make it a fact. The simplistic view to the carnage in Gaza? Well they must be fairly thick then. When I say I abhor the death and injury to the innocent in Gaza wtf do you think that means? What impression do you get from that? There’s no double Dutch there.

Maybe you should look at what you write rather than getting narky at me and others. Even your outrage “ show me one post where I say Israel is doing the right thing” shows a lack of understanding of the inference of what you write. That’s not what you specifically say but your constant refrain is “blame Hamas”. What that says is Israel can kill and injure all those people and destroy all that property because it is not their fault. They don’t have a choice.

No I don’t have to look at what I write. You made a statement on what I’ve posted. I refuted that and said “show me one post”. Which obviously yo couldn’t do, so what you claimed I said was *smile*. Then it’s “not what I specifically say” . No, it’s not a constant refrain saying “ blame hamas” it’s when people try to claim other excuses and blame Israel. Even Fatah are “blaming Hamas” for Israel’s response in Gaza. So it looks like we’re on the same page. And no, once again, I have never said it’s “not their fault” if *smile* Hamas hadn’t committed those atrocities and still keep hostages. It would never had happened. Pure and simple. It doesn’t matter how you dress it up, who you want to blame.
ITS CAUSE AND EFFECT.

Geez, we’ve been and over over this.

READ WHAT FATAH SAYS. You know that organisation that governs a few million Palestinians. I think they have a better grasp on the situation than a handful of posters here.

Of course they have a choice

Your comments on billions of $ of aid and not getting their house in order is breathtaking in its ignorance

No, it’s simple economics and the results are there to see

. They are under siege in Gaza but they built a community in an area that is one of the most overpopulated in the world. They built hospitals and schools and universities despite being effectively cut off from the world. They did all this despite having all hope of an autonomous Palestinian state taken from them over the years.

They built nothing. International aid and international workers built everything there for them.
Effectively cut off from the world. C’mon mate. They play the eternal victim and so do their supporters.
How many Palestinian doctors, teachers, scientists etc have been educated there and moved out.? not like they were locked in and no one could out. How many Palestinians have emigrated?

Unfortunately most of it is now gone.

Yes and Fatah and I say. There’s one reason why.

 

[Willo]

So @momentai gives the thumbs down. What part of my post did you disagree with or was incorrect? Care to elaborate?
Obviously you didn’t even take the time to read what I wrote.
So I take it you just “thumbs down” the poster That’s typical.

 

[K3]

An American worker in Egypt talking on how massively traumatised Palestinians are after getting out of Palestine.

 

[Willo]

In response, Fatah complained that Hamas had not “consulted” other Palestinian factions before launching its attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a … catastrophe even more horrible and cruel than that of 1948” – a reference to the displacement and expulsion of about 760,000 Palestinians from their lands during the wars surrounding the creation of Israel.

“The real disconnection from reality and the Palestinian people is that of the Hamas leadership,” said Fatah.

Analysts said that Fatah’s fierce criticism would resonate with many Palestinians in Gaza and the West

Gaza ceasefire hopes rise after Hamas abandons key demands — Guardian Australia

Israeli negotiators are heading to Qatar after the group dropped calls for a permanent end to hostilities and agreed a 40-day pause

apple.news

It’s obvious some people either don’t or can’t read or lack basic comprehension. So I will post this again. Hopefully what Fatah says might sink in. If it doesn’t I’ll post it again.
It’s not a Willo version of cause and effect. It’s not a Willo propaganda piece. Its not a Willo changing words into what people thinks he means.



It’s like if I see a cat. I call it a cat. Unfortunately when I say cat, others think I said a blue whale swimming in the deep, blue ocean,looking for plankton
They’re probably the same people who identify as “therians “

 

[Sintiger]

People can get whatever impression they like. It doesn’t make it a fact. The simplistic view to the carnage in Gaza? Well they must be fairly thick then. When I say I abhor the death and injury to the innocent in Gaza wtf do you think that means? What impression do you get from that? There’s no double Dutch there.

No I don’t have to look at what I write. You made a statement on what I’ve posted. I refuted that and said “show me one post”. Which obviously yo couldn’t do, so what you claimed I said was *smile*. Then it’s “not what I specifically say” . No, it’s not a constant refrain saying “ blame hamas” it’s when people try to claim other excuses and blame Israel. Even Fatah are “blaming Hamas” for Israel’s response in Gaza. So it looks like we’re on the same page. And no, once again, I have never said it’s “not their fault” if *smile* Hamas hadn’t committed those atrocities and still keep hostages. It would never had happened. Pure and simple. It doesn’t matter how you dress it up, who you want to blame.
ITS CAUSE AND EFFECT.

Geez, we’ve been and over over this.

READ WHAT FATAH SAYS. You know that organisation that governs a few million Palestinians. I think they have a better grasp on the situation than a handful of posters here.

No, it’s simple economics and the results are there to see

They built nothing. International aid and international workers built everything there for them.
Effectively cut off from the world. C’mon mate. They play the eternal victim and so do their supporters.
How many Palestinian doctors, teachers, scientists etc have been educated there and moved out.? not like they were locked in and no one could out. How many Palestinians have emigrated?

Yes and Fatah and I say. There’s one reason why.

You still don’t get it

Fatah said the reason Gaza was attacked this time was because of the October 7 attack but do you think if you asked Fatah who is to blame for 30,000 deaths , hundreds of thousands of injuries and mass destruction of infrastructure they would say “blame Hamas” like you do? Absolutely laughable.

What precipitated the invasion by Israel and who is responsible for the death and destruction in Gaza are not the same thing. One is the catalyst, the other is the act. If someone hits me and then I hit that person back the fight has been started when that person hits me. If I then pull out a gun and kill that person, then kill a few other people as well because they are attacking me is that still the fault of the person who hit me? You don’t seem to grasp that difference, as I said it is a very simplistic view of the conflict that you have.

Please don’t comment on aid and what it has done in Gaza, nor on what the Palestinian people have done themselves because you have no idea, you are just embarrassing yourself. You are just straight out wrong. “They built nothing” …you can’t possibly believe that.

 

[Willo]

You still don’t get it

Yes I do. Cause and effect. They have already blamed Hamas for what has happened. Here it is again
In response, Fatah complained that Hamas had not “consulted” other Palestinian factions before launching its attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a … catastrophe even more horrible and cruel than that of 1948.

Do you read what it says...”launched an attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a ..catastrophe even more horrible than that of 1948”
^^^ This is Fatahs opinion of who is to blame. Not mine. Fatahs.

Fatah said the reason Gaza was attacked this time was because of the October 7 attack but do you think if you asked Fatah who is to blame for 30,000 deaths , hundreds of thousands of injuries and mass destruction of infrastructure they would say “blame Hamas” like you do? Absolutely laughable.

What do you think Fatah was referring to
In response, Fatah complained that Hamas had not “consulted” other Palestinian factions before launching its attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a … catastrophe even more horrible and cruel than that of 1948.


Do you read what it says...”launched an attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a ..catastrophe even more horrible than that of 1948”
Now what catastrophe do you think Fatah is referring to?
Ill give you a tip it ain’t about knocking down a fence, or knocking a few streetlights out.

IT IS THERE FOR ALL TO READ. It is not about what my or your opinion is.

What precipitated the invasion by Israel and who is responsible for the death and destruction in Gaza are not the same thing.

No *smile*. If the response is disproportionate and the innocent suffer. But if there was no need for a response, those people would still be alive.
Cause and effect.

One is the catalyst, the other is the act. If someone hits me and then I hit that person back the fight has been started when that person hits me. If I then pull out a gun and kill that person, then kill a few other people as well because they are attacking me is that still the fault of the person who hit me? You don’t seem to grasp that difference, as I said it is a very simplistic view of the conflict that you have

Not even a close similarity. Youre trying to say he (hamas) only hit you. But you pull out a gun and shoot him.

Try, if a person shot and kills your older kids and family, Beheads them rapes them before that.Then kidnaps your youngest children. What are you going to do? Ring them up for an apology and ask them to send your kids back.The rest follows.
Cause and effect.
Even Fatah blames Hamas for the initial attack and the response to it.

Please don’t comment on aid and what it has done in Gaza, nor on what the Palestinian people have done themselves because you have no idea, you are just embarrassing yourself. You are just straight out wrong. “They built nothing” …you can’t possibly believe that.

I’ll comment on whatever I like. The same as anyone else here.
Well to save me embarrassing myself. Tell me the Palestinians have done themselves.

 

[momentai]

So @momentai gives the thumbs down. What part of my post did you disagree with or was incorrect? Care to elaborate?
Obviously you didn’t even take the time to read what I wrote.
So I take it you just “thumbs down” the poster That’s typical.

I hold to what I said earlier. I have read enough of your writing to see where you are going. Your wet lettuce reservations concerning Israeli conduct, can’t and certainly do not hide the fact that you don’t express or feel any real level of affront to the mass execution that, in its planning and execution, has been taking place since the IDF started its bombing.
You are entitled to that opinion of course but don’t call it something else because I don’t want you on my side.

It is relatively easy to find snapshot pieces that offer some relief from the reality that is Gaza.
Who care if the figures include the death of members of minority groups living in Gaza. Who cares when they were recruited or what they were actually engaged in at that time. Seeking food and water, seeing after the interests of friends and loved ones, or meeting to seek to defend themselves and their country from a further Israeli / US assault.

What has been taking place for a long time now is deeply wrong and unlawful.
There are no points of reference worthy of consideration other than that.

 

[Willo]

I hold to what I said earlier. I have read enough of your writing to see where you are going.

You didn’t even read the post you disliked you ticked so fast after I posted it. So your reply is a load of nonsense really. But I’ll take the time to reply.

Your wet lettuce reservations concerning Israeli conduct, can’t and certainly do not hide the fact that you don’t express or feel any real level of affront to the mass execution that, in its planning and execution, has been taking place since the IDF started its bombing.
You are entitled to that opinion of course but don’t call it something else because I don’t want you on my side.

So I don’t express or feel any real level of affront.Gee some of you people are wasted posting here. With your impeccable knowledge, your insight into how people feel, your comprehension of what they write and what they really mean. Wow.. No doubt you’re all ranking members of Mensa and work for some super agency.
Well you’re safe. I’ve not intention of being on your side.

It is relatively easy to find snapshot pieces that offer some relief from the reality that is Gaza.
Who care if the figures include the death of members of minority groups living in Gaza. Who cares when they were recruited or what they were actually engaged in at that time.

Obviously you didn’t have loved ones burned, beheaded, raped, murdered or kidnapped. Oh wait! That was the other side that happened to….

Seeking food and water, seeing after the interests of friends and loved ones, or meeting to seek to defend themselves and their country from a further Israeli / US assault.

So you justify terrorism. Ok.

What has been taking place for a long time now is deeply wrong and unlawful.
There are no points of reference worthy of consideration other than that.

In your eyes. Many others differ

 

[momentai]

Well clearly I have touched a raw nerve. The truth hurts.
Others may disagree as you do but please don’t continue to pretend the opposite.

 

[Willo]

To save you all some time and effort. Try to limit quoting me all the time.
I can’t help it if you can’t read or comp what I write. If you read something else into what I write that’s on you. Not me.
I’m Im not going to keep answering the same questions and accusations 300 times each time.
I’ve been asked every question possible about what I’ve written.
Why I wrote it? What did it mean? Why do I believe that? What about this? What about that? This is what happened? This didn’t happen? They weren’t to blame. They were to blame. What did you mean? Why did you write that? Do you believe that? You don’t believe that.
So if you haven’t got a new question don’t bother I’ve answered them all. Many times over. If you can’t be bothered to keep up or don’t want to read back, dont bother to ask me again.

Cause and effect.
Hamas caused it. The effect. Innocent civilians are suffering the effect. Deaths, injuries and destruction. In Israel then Gaza.
If there was no cause, there were no civilIan casualties. No cause. No effect. Simple to grasp that concept.
Even Fatah blames Hamas

Disproportionate response. Yes. When innocents die or are injured anywhere it’s disproportionate to whatever was the cause.

The response. Israel’s response to Hamas atrocities and abductions. No cause, there would have been no response.
Is the response understandable. Yes. That doesn’t mean one agrees with it. But obviously Israel was going to exact retribution and end Hamas and the continual attacks on innocent Israeli civilians

Where to from here? I’ve no idea.
A lot of trust has been destroyed, a lot of people will still want to exact revenge for their losses.
Will Palestinians get their own house in order? No idea! There’s too many who want power at the expense of the Palestinian people. The people, not the warmongers or corrupt politicians who only want to line their own pockets
Nor other states that want to interfere and use them as puppets for their own purposes and enable their victimhood.

Now if by that people are confused by what I wrote, I don’t care.
It’s fairly straightforward and easy to follow. It’s there, I’m not hiding, I’m not sniping, I’m not confused
That is my pov.
If people think it’s wrong, so be it. If people think I’m deluded, I don’t give a *smile*. If people think it’s all propaganda, I don’t give a *smile*.
You can have you pov. I’ll have mine ( and I know who is right ) even Fatah agrees with me for the most part.

CAUSE and EFFECT

 

[Sintiger]

Yes I do. Cause and effect. They have already blamed Hamas for what has happened. Here it is again
In response, Fatah complained that Hamas had not “consulted” other Palestinian factions before launching its attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a … catastrophe even more horrible and cruel than that of 1948.

Do you read what it says...”launched an attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a ..catastrophe even more horrible than that of 1948”
^^^ This is Fatahs opinion of who is to blame. Not mine. Fatahs.


What do you think Fatah was referring to
In response, Fatah complained that Hamas had not “consulted” other Palestinian factions before launching its attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a … catastrophe even more horrible and cruel than that of 1948.


Do you read what it says...”launched an attack last year and accused the Islamist movement of “having caused a ..catastrophe even more horrible than that of 1948”
Now what catastrophe do you think Fatah is referring to?
Ill give you a tip it ain’t about knocking down a fence, or knocking a few streetlights out.

IT IS THERE FOR ALL TO READ. It is not about what my or your opinion is.

No *smile*. If the response is disproportionate and the innocent suffer. But if there was no need for a response, those people would still be alive.
Cause and effect.

Not even a close similarity. Youre trying to say he (hamas) only hit you. But you pull out a gun and shoot him.

Try, if a person shot and kills your older kids and family, Beheads them rapes them before that.Then kidnaps your youngest children. What are you going to do? Ring them up for an apology and ask them to send your kids back.The rest follows.
Cause and effect.
Even Fatah blames Hamas for the initial attack and the response to it.

I’ll comment on whatever I like. The same as anyone else here.
Well to save me embarrassing myself. Tell me the Palestinians have done themselves.

a few points

Funny how Fatah and the palestinians are useless and have done nothing until you want to quote them
Anyway leaving that aside you don't get it, you have just proved it again. Taking your view to it's logical conclusion then if you ask the question " who's fault was the 20 million deaths in the 1st world war?" the answer would be Gavrilo Princip. He set in motion what became the 1st world war by killing Arch Duke Ferdinand. You see the world is way more complicated than simple cause and effect like that. This and my other example is trying to make this obvious point to you. You are incredibly literal, I am not trying to equivalise but to provide extreme examples to make a point.
The fact that you can't see the difference between the action that precipitated the invasion and the responsibility for what happens because of the invasion and the death and destruction it is causing makes it impossible to have a logical conversation with you.
Fatah represent millions of Palestinians and they are the political wing of a freedom movement for Palestinians that has existed for more than 50 years. They are also rivals of Hamas and it is certainly in their interest to criticise Hamas for what they did (apart from the moral point) but to even consider that somehow that means they don't hold Israel responsible for the carnage in Gaza is just nonsense.
You ask " Tell me the Palestinians have done themselves."
I've already told you, they built a community in Gaza and in the West bank. To say that aid workers did everything is just wrong, that isn't the way aid and development works.

 

[Willo]

Well clearly I have touched a raw nerve. The truth hurts.

No, you’ve touched nothing. Not a thing.
The truth never hurts if what you say is true, as I have, and stuck to it.

Others may disagree as you do but please don’t continue to pretend the opposite.

Mumbo jumbo. Pretend the opposite? try writing in English that makes sense

 

[Willo]

a few points

Funny how Fatah and the palestinians are useless and have done nothing until you want to quote them
Anyway leaving that aside you don't get it, you have just proved it again. Taking your view to it's logical conclusion then if you ask the question " who's fault was the 20 million deaths in the 1st world war?" the answer would be Gavrilo Princip. He set in motion what became the 1st world war by killing Arch Duke Ferdinand. You see the world is way more complicated than simple cause and effect like that. This and my other example is trying to make this obvious point to you. You are incredibly literal, I am not trying to equivalise but to provide extreme examples to make a point.
The fact that you can't see the difference between the action that precipitated the invasion and the responsibility for what happens because of the invasion and the death and destruction it is causing makes it impossible to have a logical conversation with you.
Fatah represent millions of Palestinians and they are the political wing of a freedom movement for Palestinians that has existed for more than 50 years. They are also rivals of Hamas and it is certainly in their interest to criticise Hamas for what they did (apart from the moral point) but to even consider that somehow that means they don't hold Israel responsible for the carnage in Gaza is just nonsense.
You ask " Tell me the Palestinians have done themselves."
I've already told you, they built a community in Gaza and in the West bank. To say that aid workers did everything is just wrong, that isn't the way aid and development works.

Obviously in your eyes and a few others “I just don't get it”.
I know what I’ve said and why I said it. I’m completely fine with that. I’m not going to convince you or others any different. I’m fine with that to.
You believe what you will, completely different to me. I respect your views and opinions. I don’t necessarily have to agree and don’t in most cases, but that’s fine. It doesn’t diminish you in any way shape or form to me. Just the opposite. Enjoy your day.

 

[MD Jazz]

Try, if a person shot and kills your older kids and family, Beheads them rapes them before that.Then kidnaps your youngest children. What are you going to do? Ring them up for an apology and ask them to send your kids back.The rest follows.
Cause and effect.
Even Fatah blames Hamas for the initial attack and the response to it.

So nothing occurred before Oct 7?

 

[K3]

So nothing occurred before Oct 7?

The first line written describes what Israel has done to the Palestinians before Oct 7th.

Pretty much nailed it.

 

[Willo]

So nothing occurred before Oct 7?

*smile* not this question again. Asked 50 times, answered 50 times.

Obviously Hamas we’re busy preparing their massacres, atrocities and abductions before Oct 7

Now what about Oct 7? Did anything happen on that day? Obviously you went to sleep on Oct 6 and woke up on Oct 8.

 

[Willo]

The first line written describes what Israel has done to the Palestinians before Oct 7th.

Pretty much nailed it.

Yeah, Israel raped, Burned, Beheaded, killed and abducted Palestinians . Apparently you can do that and not expect a response.
Pretty much nailed it all right.

 

[MD Jazz]

*smile* not this question again. Asked 50 times, answered 50 times.
Now what about Oct 7? Did anything happen on that day?

Yes, this question again. Because you seemingly ignore the suffering of the Palestinians prior to Oct 7.

Not that anyone condones what Hamas did.

Israel have the power here. You say Hamas have condoned Palestinians to further suffering. What do you think Natanyahu and his cronies actions are doing for future generations of Israelis?

 

[Willo]

Yes, this question again. Because you seemingly ignore the suffering of the Palestinians prior to Oct 7.

what a wank. Answered 50 times

Not that anyone condones what Hamas did.

Ahh the old not that anyone condones what Hamas did. Well why the *smile* don’t you condemn them for what they are and what they did.
No one “condones”
Cause and effect

Israel have the power here. You say Hamas have condoned Palestinians to further suffering. What do you think Natanyahu and his cronies actions are doing for future generations of Israelis?

Cause and effect.
If Hamas hadn’t caused it Israel had no reason to invade Gaza.

what has Hamas done for the Palestinians they rule for the last nearly 20 years?