Nick Vlastuin

[shawry]

It is in that sense, but what I meant was that we should have had a straightforward Pick 2 instead of effectively Pick 12. We had less chance of drafting quality talent due to the compromised draft AND we stuffed up the pick, compounding the situation. It was controllably worse than it should have been, in a situation that was uncontrollably worse than it should have been. Double whammy.

To rub it in, in the past when clubs finished 2nd last: Collingwood received Pendlebury and Thomas, and Hawthorn received Roughead and Lance Franklin. A few years later we finish in the same position and end up with Conca.

Club's fault + horrible external factors = lack of high-end talent at our club.

We've been sh!t for years and always had decent picks regardless. Recruiting isn't the problem. It is the cancer that permeates our club and player development that always is our issue.

 

[jb03]

It is in that sense, but what I meant was that we should have had a straightforward Pick 2 instead of effectively Pick 12. We had less chance of drafting quality talent due to the compromised draft AND we stuffed up the pick, compounding the situation. It was controllably worse than it should have been, in a situation that was uncontrollably worse than it should have been. Double whammy.

To rub it in, in the past when clubs finished 2nd last: Collingwood received Pendlebury and Thomas, and Hawthorn received Roughead and Lance Franklin. A few years later we finish in the same position and end up with Conca.

Club's fault + horrible external factors = lack of high-end talent at our club.

I think that is mrore copping out. How can you mention Roughead and Franklin. We were in a better draft position that year than Hawthorn and pretty much blew it (lids aside).

If we had Heppell and not Conca you wouldn't be mentioning compromised drafts at all.

 

[nafe brown]

He is strong hard and tough exactly what we are missing in the midfield, can someone tell me why we are persevering with in the back pocket as it just seems like we are wasting his talent and hindering his development common Dimma put him in the Medfield where he belongs!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bill James]

Exactly. Look at 8 and 9. Heppell and Prestia, both midfield guns. At least we got one out of left field. Tick the bucket list box.

It always amuses me when this topic comes up that we are completely useless because picks 8 and 9 were better than our pick 6. No-one mentions picks 7 or indeed pick 4 who is not even at his draftee club.

If Conca is the worst top 10 we ever take I am happy. So he is worse than two picks taken after him. He is clearly better than 5 of the next 10 picks and arguably better than 8. Keep drafting with those percentages and life will be fine. Just don't give me any more JON's who was worse then all the next 10 picks by a long way. Those are the ones that hurt.

 

[Scoop]

It always amuses me when this topic comes up that we are completely useless because picks 8 and 9 were better than our pick 6. No-one mentions picks 7 or indeed pick 4 who is not even at his draftee club.

If Conca is the worst top 10 we ever take I am happy. So he is worse than two picks taken after him. He is clearly better than 5 of the next 10 picks and arguably better than 8. Keep drafting with those percentages and life will be fine. Just don't give me any more JON's who was worse then all the next 10 picks by a long way. Those are the ones that hurt.

That's the thinking that creates a average list. Sixth to twelfth. And that's what we've got. A vanilla, one paced safe list. Being happy Conca at 6 when most had him 16-26 is madness. Missing the best player from that draft when he was available, rated better, preformed better at a underage level, was rated a better kick and then being happy with a average performer is folly. Taking Heppell was the percentage pick.

The process and what we value is wrong.

 

[tigersnake]

It always amuses me when this topic comes up that we are completely useless because picks 8 and 9 were better than our pick 6. No-one mentions picks 7 or indeed pick 4 who is not even at his draftee club.

If Conca is the worst top 10 we ever take I am happy. So he is worse than two picks taken after him. He is clearly better than 5 of the next 10 picks and arguably better than 8. Keep drafting with those percentages and life will be fine. Just don't give me any more JON's who was worse then all the next 10 picks by a long way. Those are the ones that hurt.

yeah thats it. We used to stuff them all up, now we're doing OK, but don't pick optimally all the time (which nobody does), and people get all hindsight OCD

 

[Scoop]

yeah thats it. We used to stuff them all up, now we're doing OK, but don't pick optimally all the time (which nobody does), and people get all hindsight OCD

It's not hindsight when you call it before it happens.

 

[tigersnake]

It's not hindsight when you call it before it happens.

still, you can't have it both ways, you have to acknowledge where you've got it wrong and Frank right. You also called for D Garlett, very strongly if memory serves. And I'm sure there are others. I respect your views more than most on recruiting, but unless they are stupendously obvious clangers, RT V LF, then its fraught. I still say its hindsight OCD, people have elephant memories for the one they might have got right, but goldfish memories for the ones they got wrong

 

[Scoop]

still, you can't have it both ways, you have to acknowledge where you've got it wrong and Frank right. You also called for D Garlett, very strongly if memory serves. And I'm sure there are others. I respect your views more than most on recruiting, but unless they are stupendously obvious clangers, RT V LF, then its fraught. I still say its hindsight OCD, people have elephant memories for the one they might have got right, but goldfish memories for the ones they got wrong

No doubt I went hard for Garlett. And I went hard for Heppell, Luke Parker, Jack Ziebell , Brodie Grundy and others.

The problem is, if Im breaking even or slightly ahead or behind with Frank without a full time staff, without a network, without access to the best information possible, how well is he really going? I can have it both ways because he should be making me look like a rank amateur. It's not hindsight if it's the correct call before it happens.

 

[The_General]

With all due respect Scoop, you don't have worry about building a list, meeting coaches requests for types of players so he an coach and (hopefully) win games.

I'm sure Dimma will be saying something like "I need some big bodied defenders, mids, and a skilful Half forward".
The issue with your approach is, you can cherry pick players, throw them out there without regard for taking the risk that between the two players you want at a pick, ones 50-50 to make it and the other is definitely going to be gone because. The players parents, manager etc have let you know who's talking to them.

Roll the dice? Take what you need to build the list not just for now, but in three years, and hope the odds fall your way?

 

[Scoop]

With all due respect Scoop, you don't have worry about building a list, meeting coaches requests for types of players so he an coach and (hopefully) win games.

I'm sure Dimma will be saying something like "I need some big bodied defenders, mids, and a skilful Half forward".
The issue with your approach is, you can cherry pick players, throw them out there without regard for taking the risk that between the two players you want at a pick, ones 50-50 to make it and the other is definitely going to be gone because. The players parents, manager etc have let you know who's talking to them.

Roll the dice? Take what you need to build the list not just for now, but in three years, and hope the odds fall your way?

And that's why he gets paid & has hundred of thousands of dollars to find this out and dissect the information at his disposal. That's the job.

In a vacuum the picks are pretty transparent, you have a need, who do you pick to fill it ? But if your club is getting it right at the draft table the future looks after itself as you keep channelling in top tier talent year after year from by picking the Heppells instead of the Concas.

 

[Bill James]

That's the thinking that creates a average list. Sixth to twelfth. And that's what we've got. A vanilla, one paced safe list. Being happy Conca at 6 when most had him 16-26 is madness. Missing the best player from that draft when he was available, rated better, preformed better at a underage level, was rated a better kick and then being happy with a average performer is folly. Taking Heppell was the percentage pick.

The process and what we value is wrong.

Better people than me have had similar thoughts.

Agree, Conca looked good when he came on.

Behind Heppell by a long way but the least of problems.

Still in shcok that we didn't take him.

Not unhappy with Conca but the mail all year was that we were in love with Heppell and shattered when the Lions got pick 5.

Still think we take Heppell if the Lions don't.

Can't see how things changed that much.

If Heppell is gone then I have no real issue with Conca. He fits the mould of what we need. Complete footballer, gets his own and can run the lines.

 

[Scoop]

Yeah and? It was common knowledge we were taking Conca. I wanted Heppell, accepted we were taking Conca.

Conca has shown flashes of being a slightly sbove average mid but too few and far between. Those comments support it.

 

[Brodders17]

Sorry to talk about Vlastuin on Heppell's thread but of note is that he played 70% of gametime. In the back half. There must be a fitness issue.
What the cause is I don't know. Interrupted preseason?

 

[Bill James]

Yeah and? It was common knowledge we were taking Conca. I wanted Heppell, accepted we were taking Conca.

Conca has shown flashes of being a slightly sbove average mid but too few and far between. Those comments support it.

So common you were shocked we didn't take Heppell. Your hindsight is improving with age.

Reading your posts at the time your case for Parker over Batchelor is a lot stronger. But the reality is you were disappointed at not getting Heppell but not unhappy with Conca.

 

[Rantnrave]

we coulda had parker and heppel but took conca and batchelor......ooooooooooh I'm getting a headache

 

[Scoop]

So common you were shocked we didn't take Heppell. Your hindsight is improving with age.

Reading your posts at the time your case for Parker over Batchelor is a lot stronger. But the reality is you were disappointed at not getting Heppell but not unhappy with Conca.

Regardless of degrees of unhappiness you can give me 6.4 or 8.9, I wanted Heppell. How unhappy I was with Conca is irrelevant to the fact that I wanted Heppell. I fail to see the difference.

The question is how did Frank get both of them wrong? What process was undertaken? That entire draft was a disaster.

 

[tigerdave]

Had very little impact on the contest. And just because a pick 6 was wrong it doesn't improve pick 9's stock. At the time I wanted Brodie Grundy. We still need that young ruck.

But Vlastuin isn't looking like he will become anything but a role player. Disappointing.

Have a Bex mate! ;D

 

[Dyer'ere]

Sorry to talk about Vlastuin on Heppell's thread but of note is that he played 70% of gametime. In the back half. There must be a fitness issue.
What the cause is I don't know. Interrupted preseason?

He's got a niggle fore sure, Brodders. The ankle's NQR. It looks from a distance that he's reasonably well again but e was pretty scratchy when he first did it.


On Vlastuin I think it's pretty plain that he's a flanker. It's not really controversial that the easiest place to get a kick is the HBF, is it? Vlastuin doesn't get enough kicks at HBF to be considered for a midfield role IMO.

I've seen him plat thirty or so very immature games. He stargazes, gets lost, takes easy options, doesn't run enough. All understandable in a young player. But in 2013 and 2014 he showed glimpses of advanced maturity. Just glimpses though.

Flossy has a bit of a rep on the boards as a hard man but I hadn't seen it on the park in his first and second seasons. I'd have said a diffident young player. Goes when it suits him. Reece Conca has more aggression in his toejam. Titch would eat that to get a kick. And now we're back to Flossy.

But I think Vlastuin is going to have a very good year. He looks much more physically aggressive. His attack on the air ball has gone quantum. He's shown some real authority at crucial times. Impressive stuff.

He was one that had a dip when that Melbourne game was turning to *smile*. This bloke's won me over so far this year. I reckon he's growing into his paws.

 

[Bill James]

Regardless of degrees of unhappiness you can give me 6.4 or 8.9, I wanted Heppell. How unhappy I was with Conca is irrelevant to the fact that I wanted Heppell. I fail to see the difference.

The question is how did Frank get both of them wrong? What process was undertaken? That entire draft was a disaster.

Every single club passed on Parker at less once.