Little things that annoy you....

[The_General]

Personally, I dont see SRL helping much, if at all. Unless you are going to the airport, then who otherwise is travelling between Cheltenham to Box Hill and places like Burwood and Reservoir etc ?

SRL will help people trying to get to/from Uni and to hospitals. Eg Living in Glen Waverley going to Monash med centre or Box Hill Hospital.

When I was younger, I used to have to commute from the Broady area, to Monash in Clayton. 2 hrs each way. Admittedly I was a rarity, but that was partially because it was so hard to get to anything other than Melbourne or Latrobe.

There's folks who today come in from the suburbs, into the centre, who then train it back out to work. SRL will help that. SRL will help those folks.

Regardless of SRL, there's still only so many trains you can bring to any station in the CBD. We need to change the way we work so not everyone has to go into the middle.

 

[Redford]

SRL will help people trying to get to/from Uni and to hospitals. Eg Living in Glen Waverley going to Monash med centre or Box Hill Hospital.

When I was younger, I used to have to commute from the Broady area, to Monash in Clayton. 2 hrs each way. Admittedly I was a rarity, but that was partially because it was so hard to get to anything other than Melbourne or Latrobe.

There's folks who today come in from the suburbs, into the centre, who then train it back out to work. SRL will help that. SRL will help those folks.

Regardless of SRL, there's still only so many trains you can bring to any station in the CBD. We need to change the way we work so not everyone has to go into the middle.

Nah sorry General Motors. That's not cutting it for me. That's billions on a part circular and very peripheral route that's gonna have near zero impact on the central or core movement of people in Melbourne.

That's doing nothing to remove the insane congestion on our lines into and out of the city, nor our major roads. That won't do jack for the Monash, Eastern, Tulla car parks. Nothing.

As for so many trains, that's not correct either. Double and triple level platforms are the norm in NYC. In fact I think the new Anzac station is multi level but I stand to be corrected on that. Underground lines ? Build them. Yes it'll all cost more than the SRL - a lot more - but at least it will be seriously impactful. The SRL won't for the vast majority of Melburnians.

I encourage you and others to read this book. It explains why and how the NYC subway was built and added to, including removing above ground lines and platforms and putting them underground. How they navigated existing infrastructure (primarily using the cut and cover method), built extra lines and platforms etc. It's staggeringly simple and effective.

It can be done.

(And if you read the book, you'll say "how the fck could they do it so quickly and simply back then - basically by hand yet we spend billions on a few klms that takes years ? ". Yes it's far more expensive for them too now but they still do it. They just finished the first phase of the new 2nd avenue line under the city. I think that's Nobets in the middle of the picture, standing there doing nothing as usual, with his hands in his pockets.)

 

[The_General]

Little things that annoy.....
So waiting for one of the three elevators in the car park today, and there's a few folks waiting for a lift behind me.

Along comes this self important vomit bag, who not only repeatedly kept pressing the up button so one of the full lifts lifts couldn't leave (he must have thought that 8 or so folks standing there just didnt like the smell of that lift not to grt in it..)

Then the *smile* barges into the next lift to arrive before anyone else can make a move. We squeeze into the lift, one couple who were probably waiting just after me couldn't get in....

After all his pushing to get in front, this obnoxious **** gets out on LEVEL *smile* 2. We all had to get out of the lift to enable him space to leave (Im not a slender man, but he was substantially bigger than me)...and then we got back in.

So the thing that most annoys me is i don't have any very mild superpowers to take the gloss off his afternoon...like make his car battery be flat, or have a punctured tyre... Oh to be able to be mildly vengeful.

 

[Redford]

Little things that annoy.....
So waiting for one of the three elevators in the car park today, and there's a few folks waiting for a lift behind me.

Along comes this self important vomit bag, who not only repeatedly kept pressing the up button so one of the full lifts lifts couldn't leave (he must have thought that 8 or so folks standing there just didnt like the smell of that lift not to grt in it..)

Then the *smile* barges into the next lift to arrive before anyone else can make a move. We squeeze into the lift, one couple who were probably waiting just after me couldn't get in....

After all his pushing to get in front, this obnoxious **** gets out on LEVEL *smile* 2. We all had to get out of the lift to enable him space to leave (Im not a slender man, but he was substantially bigger than me)...and then we got back in.

So the thing that most annoys me is i don't have any very mild superpowers to take the gloss off his afternoon...like make his car battery be flat, or have a punctured tyre... Oh to be able to be mildly vengeful.

You should have all stood there in the lift and not moved. Make him go to the other levels with you !

 

[DavidSSS]

Yeah. Nah. People I know going to Uni out there already live out that way.

The biggest travel movement is still in and out of the centre of the city and across it. The SRL caters only to the airport in that respect.

Is it though?

I know it was a long time ago, but I remember reading that 70% of trips in Melbourne were cross town in the 1980s (might have come from the Lonie Report for those old enough to remember). Yet, we have a public transport system which is radial. I had to get the train to Lilydale recently, had to go in as far as Richmond to do this. By car I go across, by PT I can't. I don't think we have become more CBD centric since the 1980s, probably less so. So I reckon the cross city line will get plenty of patronage. If you have tried to park at Monash lately you will know that a train would be a huge benefit to students going there.

I'll add a couple of other things given your later post.

Road congestion is huge, but the problem with building roads is that they create traffic. Build it and they will come, usually in numbers way over the capacity of the shiny new road just built. This is well documented. Building more roads does not solve traffic congestion, generally makes it worse.

As for the SRL, at least it is a start. We are so far behind cities like New York, Paris, London etc it will take a long time to catch up. We need a public transport system which has far greater capacity and that means we need more train lines. The one saving grace we do have is we kept our trams which have decent capacity and are fine for short to medium journeys if only the cars would get out of the way.

DS

 

[Redford]

Is it though?

I know it was a long time ago, but I remember reading that 70% of trips in Melbourne were cross town in the 1980s (might have come from the Lonie Report for those old enough to remember). Yet, we have a public transport system which is radial. I had to get the train to Lilydale recently, had to go in as far as Richmond to do this. By car I go across, by PT I can't. I don't think we have become more CBD centric since the 1980s, probably less so. So I reckon the cross city line will get plenty of patronage. If you have tried to park at Monash lately you will know that a train would be a huge benefit to students going there.

I'll add a couple of other things given your later post.

Road congestion is huge, but the problem with building roads is that they create traffic. Build it and they will come, usually in numbers way over the capacity of the shiny new road just built. This is well documented. Building more roads does not solve traffic congestion, generally makes it worse.

As for the SRL, at least it is a start. We are so far behind cities like New York, Paris, London etc it will take a long time to catch up. We need a public transport system which has far greater capacity and that means we need more train lines. The one saving grace we do have is we kept our trams which have decent capacity and are fine for short to medium journeys if only the cars would get out of the way.

DS

I never said build more roads Davo. Think you've gone off on a tangent there.

 

[Ian4]

Cost of a pint in a pub in Melbourne. It's become obscene how much beer is when you go out.

I worked night shift and afternoon shift for 6 years from the age of 19. When I finally got a transfer that enabled me to work regular business hours, I promised myself I would never miss post work Friday night drinks again.

And religiously, for almost 20 years I was at the pub for Friday night drinks, until the pandemic hit.

The after the pandemic, I stopped going. There are a few reasons for this, but the number 1 reason is the cost of a pint. I just can’t justify p!ssing that amount of money up the wall.

Personally, I dont see SRL helping much, if at all. Unless you are going to the airport, then who otherwise is travelling between Cheltenham to Box Hill and places like Burwood and Reservoir etc ?

I think the SRL will be a great project over time. But if you want me to be honest. I think Melbourne Metro 2.0 will be better for the train network in the medium term.

For those who don’t know what MM 2.0 is, it’s a tunnel between Clifton Hill and Newport that will connect the Werribee/Williamstown lines with the Hurstbridge/Mernda lines.

Is it though?

I know it was a long time ago, but I remember reading that 70% of trips in Melbourne were cross town in the 1980s (might have come from the Lonie Report for those old enough to remember). Yet, we have a public transport system which is radial. I had to get the train to Lilydale recently, had to go in as far as Richmond to do this. By car I go across, by PT I can't. I don't think we have become more CBD centric since the 1980s, probably less so. So I reckon the cross city line will get plenty of patronage. If you have tried to park at Monash lately you will know that a train would be a huge benefit to students going there.

The irony of course is that we did have the outer circle line, a long, long time ago. The current Alamein line was part of it. The train network might have been a little different had that been maintained.

 

[Redford]

The irony of course is that we did have the outer circle line, a long, long time ago. The current Alamein line was part of it. The train network might have been a little different had that been maintained.

And that really is, as I said before, the root issue or problem here: a total lack of investment in public infrastructure that goes back 50 years or more. Little planning for the future.

Somebody on PRE, can't remember who, said some time ago that governments should be forced to allocate a minimum spend in their budgets on high level-high demand public infrastructure. Excellent idea.

 

[TT33]

And that really is, as I said before, the root issue or problem here: a total lack of investment in public infrastructure that goes back 50 years or more. Little planning for the future.

Somebody on PRE, can't remember who, said some time ago that governments should be forced to allocate a minimum spend in their budgets on high level-high demand public infrastructure. Excellent idea.

I agree.

 

[The_General]

I think the SRL will be a great project over time. But if you want me to be honest. I think Melbourne Metro 2.0 will be better for the train network in the medium term.

For those who don’t know what MM 2.0 is, it’s a tunnel between Clifton Hill and Newport that will connect the Werribee/Williamstown lines with the Hurstbridge/Mernda lines.

MM2 was also meant to go under Parkville (new station in MM1) so provided an interchange with Pakenham/Sunbury line.
To Red's point above, I understand the lasagne layers of railways, was on the CYP project building the tunnel for a while - and it's going around/under the MURL (underground loop).
Cross city connections and orbital loops are both required. We need to change the way we live/work, rather than just keep us on the same societal treadmill we have today.

 

[Ian4]

MM2 was also meant to go under Parkville (new station in MM1) so provided an interchange with Pakenham/Sunbury line.
To Red's point above, I understand the lasagne layers of railways, was on the CYP project building the tunnel for a while - and it's going around/under the MURL (underground loop).
Cross city connections and orbital loops are both required. We need to change the way we live/work, rather than just keep us on the same societal treadmill we have today.

Yes, MM 2.0 is supposed to connect with Parkville, Flagstaff and Southern Cross with extra stations in Fitzroy, Carton, a couple in Fishermans Bend before going under the Yarra and connecting up to the main line at Newport.

 

[tigerman]

And that really is, as I said before, the root issue or problem here: a total lack of investment in public infrastructure that goes back 50 years or more. Little planning for the future.

Somebody on PRE, can't remember who, said some time ago that governments should be forced to allocate a minimum spend in their budgets on high level-high demand public infrastructure. Excellent idea.

I agree 100% on the lack of infrastructure foresight and spending.

John Howard should cop a fair bit of the blame, what is his government/s infrastructure legacies?

AICD's Brogden criticises Howard's lack of infrastructure spending​

"The head of the company directors group says a lack of spending on infrastructure needed for future development during the boom times of the Howard government was a mistake and politicians need to learn from it.

"I personally lament the last years of the Howard government for not turning some of that boom money into infrastructure. It's absolutely spilt milk but I think we should learn from that lesson and not make that mistake again," said John Brogden, the chief executive of the Australian Institute of Company Directors.

He added it was disappointing that Western Australia Premier Colin Barnett is looking at selling assets to deal with debt rather than trying to build up the state.

Infrastructure is viewed by directors as the most important long-term issue for the government but 90 per cent of them think investment in the sector is far too low.

"After decades of below-par investment in public and private infrastructure, the lobby group is calling for a national conversation to deal with a range of issues including travel times in capital cities that are expected to increase by at least 20 per cent in the next 15 years, and demand for public transport in some cities that is tipped to double in the same time frame."

"AICD chairman Elizabeth Proust outlined three recommendations that involve getting the Council of Australian Governments to agree to a 15-year plan that would help target specific needs, a better way to determine the cost and benefit of each project and the ongoing process of recycling older assets to help build new ones."

"I think the Victorian Melbourne East West project showed that governments think that infrastructure is partisan, and have differing plans. We're calling for a 15-year plan – which probably in Japanese terms would probably be short-term thinking – but a 15-year commitment which would get hopefully both major parties supportive so that there are cost-benefit analysis things that are dealt with," Ms Proust said.

"She added that Sydney and Melbourne continue to grow and roads and rail systems are just coming to a halt and are unsustainable.
The directors group pointed to the success in 2015 of the Baird government in NSW as proof that voters will agree to controversial issues, such as electricity privatisation, if they can see that the money raised will be spent on new infrastructure."

"We're very supportive of the asset recycling concept now" said Mr Brogden.
"I think the public are now becoming very supportive of the concept where you sell this piece of infrastructure to build the next piece of infrastructure and it recycles itself through to the next piece."

"If nothing is done within the infrastructure space then, according to the AICD, "increasing congestion and bottlenecks will test Australia's productivity and quality of life".

"In addition, by 2031 the national freight network will exceed capacity and regional roads, town water and rail infrastructure will all fall to such a low standard that most Australians will consider them not up to scratch."


Sorry to turn this thread political, but a lack of infrastructure foresight and spending annoys me a lot.

AICD's Brogden criticises Howard's lack of infrastructure spending

The head of the company directors group says a lack of spending on infrastructure needed for future development during the boom times of the Howard government was a mistake and politicians need to learn from it.

www.afr.com

 

[Willo]

I agree 100% on the lack of infrastructure foresight and spending.

John Howard should cop a fair bit of the blame, what is his government/s infrastructure legacies?

AICD's Brogden criticises Howard's lack of infrastructure spending​

"The head of the company directors group says a lack of spending on infrastructure needed for future development during the boom times of the Howard government was a mistake and politicians need to learn from it.

"I personally lament the last years of the Howard government for not turning some of that boom money into infrastructure. It's absolutely spilt milk but I think we should learn from that lesson and not make that mistake again," said John Brogden, the chief executive of the Australian Institute of Company Directors.

He added it was disappointing that Western Australia Premier Colin Barnett is looking at selling assets to deal with debt rather than trying to build up the state.

Infrastructure is viewed by directors as the most important long-term issue for the government but 90 per cent of them think investment in the sector is far too low.

"After decades of below-par investment in public and private infrastructure, the lobby group is calling for a national conversation to deal with a range of issues including travel times in capital cities that are expected to increase by at least 20 per cent in the next 15 years, and demand for public transport in some cities that is tipped to double in the same time frame."

"AICD chairman Elizabeth Proust outlined three recommendations that involve getting the Council of Australian Governments to agree to a 15-year plan that would help target specific needs, a better way to determine the cost and benefit of each project and the ongoing process of recycling older assets to help build new ones."

"I think the Victorian Melbourne East West project showed that governments think that infrastructure is partisan, and have differing plans. We're calling for a 15-year plan – which probably in Japanese terms would probably be short-term thinking – but a 15-year commitment which would get hopefully both major parties supportive so that there are cost-benefit analysis things that are dealt with," Ms Proust said.

"She added that Sydney and Melbourne continue to grow and roads and rail systems are just coming to a halt and are unsustainable.
The directors group pointed to the success in 2015 of the Baird government in NSW as proof that voters will agree to controversial issues, such as electricity privatisation, if they can see that the money raised will be spent on new infrastructure."

"We're very supportive of the asset recycling concept now" said Mr Brogden.
"I think the public are now becoming very supportive of the concept where you sell this piece of infrastructure to build the next piece of infrastructure and it recycles itself through to the next piece."

"If nothing is done within the infrastructure space then, according to the AICD, "increasing congestion and bottlenecks will test Australia's productivity and quality of life".

"In addition, by 2031 the national freight network will exceed capacity and regional roads, town water and rail infrastructure will all fall to such a low standard that most Australians will consider them not up to scratch."


Sorry to turn this thread political, but a lack of infrastructure foresight and spending annoys me a lot.

AICD's Brogden criticises Howard's lack of infrastructure spending

The head of the company directors group says a lack of spending on infrastructure needed for future development during the boom times of the Howard government was a mistake and politicians need to learn from it.

www.afr.com

Seeing Howard hasn’t been in power for nigh on 17 years and you haven’t held anyone else to task , for a lack of public infrastructure. I can see why that would be annoying.
Good to see Chalmers has announced some surpluses. Obviously it’s time to invest in public infrastructure. Not before time.
It’s been lax for decades.

 

[Willo]

And that really is, as I said before, the root issue or problem here: a total lack of investment in public infrastructure that goes back 50 years or more. Little planning for the future.

Yes Redaffordit, it pisses me off that lack of investment within Australia. We always seem to have money or the capacity to borrow money and send it overseas. Or waste on crap white elephants.
It’s an issue I’ve always felt strongly about. Not just investing inpublic infrastructure either….but a major one.

Somebody on PRE, can't remember who, said some time ago that governments should be forced to allocate a minimum spend in their budgets on high level-high demand public infrastructure. Excellent idea.

Yes, that was me.
Sometimes it takes time for us true, modest geniuses to be recognised

 

[tigerman]

Seeing Howard hasn’t been in power for nigh on 17 years and you haven’t held anyone else to task , for a lack of public infrastructure. I can see why that would be annoying.
Good to see Chalmers has announced some surpluses. Obviously it’s time to invest in public infrastructure. Not before time.
It’s been lax for decades.

All governments since Howard and Costello have been better on infrastructure, it wasn't hard to be better than them though.

 

[Willo]

All governments since Howard and Costello have been better on infrastructure, it wasn't hard to be better than them though.

What have the big infrastructure investments by the Feds been during the last 17 years? I can’t remember too many, but that’s not say there haven’t been any..or many

 

[tigerman]

What have the big infrastructure investments by the Feds been during the last 17 years? I can’t remember too many, but that’s not say there haven’t been any..or many

Engineering Construction Activity, Australia

www.abs.gov.au

 

[Willo]

Engineering Construction Activity, Australia

www.abs.gov.au

So good of you to provide that reference.
So it’s value of work done? Not where or what on?
Without going through the whole lot, or even the last 20 years, just taking a few snapshots! There have been some years of bloody poor investing and some years of decent investing. On what though, it doesn’t say? But I’m now 8nterested to see if I can find where some the spending went. Good exercise for my brain before I get JoeBidened

 

[tigerman]

So good of you to provide that reference.
So it’s value of work done? Not where or what on?

The graphs during the Howard and Costello years are damning.

Google is your friend, I'm sure there will be more data out there.

 

[Willo]

The graphs during the Howard and Costello years are damning.

Google is your friend, I'm sure there will be more data out there.

No doubt they were too busy paying down the deficits Labor left them.

Yeah I must admit, I need to do some reading.Refer to my previous post.
But it’s nearly a full time job educating the masses. Especially in some of the threads I get immersed in. It seems a lot of posters keep wanting and needing me to help them. Being such a good hearted fella, I do my best to accomodate them all.
But it’s no easy task I tell you. And not a lot of reward either But one thing I’m about is never quitting, help those less fortunate, and just do your best