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Ivan Soldo
- Thread starter buenavista
- Start date
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Bill James
Guest
Nice opinion but doesn't match the facts. We win the cc 10/16 games and we only lost two games when we lost cc.Blind Turn said:
Against Melbourne and Western Bulldogs they didn't play Rucks and Nank smashed the hitouts but we lost the cc.
Blind Turn said:
1 in 3 Nanks hitouts went to our advantage. Only 1 in 5 for Soldo, so that debunks that theory. The next biggest advantage you have with Nanks over SOldo is once it does hit the ground you have effectively an extra midfielder as Nanks is excellent at ground level. 10 contested possessions Nanks had on the weekend (4th most behind Dusty, Cotch, Caddy). Only ruckmen with better contested ball averages this year are Ryder, Grundy, Kreuzer, Martin. All except Grundy are significantly older and more experienced. Nanks is a gun. I think though if Soldo's performance trajectory keeps rising that these two would make an excellent future ruck combination as they complement each other well to cover differing requirements against different team's ruckmen.
By the way the games that we lost were not Nankervis's fault, they were typical Richmond brain fades, games that a Hawthorn (of the past) or Geelong would have never dropped being in that position.
Blind Turn said:
You're talking about when an aerial ruck gets a ground ruck by the hair, BT. It's ugly. Set plays.
Nank got a career-worst hiding from Billy Longer a couple of weeks ago, BT. Ugly. I expected that a bit more often than once a year from Nank. Toby can't get air, as you say. And he can get a bit lost. I initially thought it'd only be a matter of time til aerioal rucks started just hitting to space and quadrants at will. Set plays and then - massacre.
But Longer is the first to get Nank by the hair and even then Longer mainly beat him up at ground level. Jacobs kinda got him but it was mainly through superior running and inside game. Not ruck rout set plays.
Ryder threatened to do it but our man fought back. Likewise Grundy. Our man has always fought back. And he does get the ball going our way but usually close, as you suggest. Mainly he's just getting the ball to brawl height and depth. But crucially in doing that he's stopping them from working to space and set plays.
But you're right. Toby can't send the ball to planned areas for our smalls to hit en masse. Wide areas. Long areas. He moves it close so that whether he hits the target or not he can block or tackle. Or clear it himself. Longer smashed him at his own game. Us at ours. Next thing you know Soldo's in. Not to beat rucks at ground level - to tap it away from them.
Blind Turn said:
It works the other way with Soldo. He can hit it to planned areas, wide or long. He can shove it down the throat of a running mid (sometimes ours ;D). But on the flip, while he's young they do get to knock him over and run off him. Or hit to planned wide areas themselves.
Despite Soldo's youth/weaknesses he's still potentially a much more dangerous aerial ruck than Nank. Dusty asked Soldo for a hit before one of the stoppages last week and Soldo obliged. Piece of *smile*.
Soldo isn't doing this often yet but he will.
Here's the next issue - Mostly, even if rucks have the leap they don't hit wide or long. It's risky. Dice rolling. The cost of a miss is too high. Because of this preference for close work (defensive) the tap ruck may be on the way out.
Further again on this point, because the tap ruck is largely out of favour with the odd exception, and because the strategic outnumber is fashionable (because effective) in some clubs the second ruck may be phased out. Rucks are too easy to get off. Soldo especially.
But we'll get to have another look this year.
Blind Turn said:
I thought our man got on top of Grundy in their earlier meeting, BT. I think our man has the stronger will. He wears opponents down.
Grundy is more likely to chop Soldo up IMO. On the outside. Soldo would out tap him despite them being the same height. But probably not win the duel at this stage. Maybe even get a hiding.
Among the many reasons Soldo is in ATM one is to lighten Nank's load in the winter months so we can keep him sound for the finals. Smart play IMO.
BT Tiger said:
Yes, I racked my brain quickly to think if we had ever spent a high pick on a ruck. Odd that Vicks just didn't come to mind. :hihi
Simply because I've always regarded him as a supposed 'power forward' - not sure if that term is defunct now. The club were most likely expecting him to transition into a ruck, or at least ruck/forward.
Unfortunately, (but not for us any more), he is still not quite there - as either.
tigerlove said:
The point I was trying to make was not really disparaging Nanks but that a ruck combination that includes an aerialist is ideal for us because Nanks will get beaten by superior athletes at the centre bounce. He is a very fine acquisition but not without limitations. I'm not sold on Soldo but on a very tall man with a leap because as Jack succinctly points out, once a tall with a leap grabs a ground ruckman by the hair, it can get ugly very quickly. Especially in last quarters, if you can dominate centre bounces and you can get the ball to your forwards quickly, you can score freely. Much easier than transitioning from the back half where teams have the ability to cover forwards.
As far as being anyone's fault, If the onballers were good enough you could argue they could collect the ball regardless of who wins the ruck but surely a hit out to their advantage dramatically increases the likelihood of successful set plays or at the very least 50/50 contests?
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Bill James
Guest
We won the centre clearances against the saints so it was not accurate.leon said:
Soldo smashed the hitouts against the bulldogs but we lost the centre clearances so it was not balanced.
It's talking about past games so it was not prescient.
You can use all the adjectives you like Leon, but a hitout is of no value without a clearance. This is why Ivan got selected over Hampson when they were both fit. If Hampson ever gets fit, Nank will be preferred for the same reason.
Bill James said:
Like a dog with a bone, aren't you Bill?
We lost the (total) CLRs against the Aints 34/29. CC, we supposedly won 16/15. Totally inconsequential differential of +1, Bill. What are you so excited about? Did you check out and connect the I50s, which were 64/45 in their favour! They slaughtered us in disposals, contested possessions, tackles and HIT-OUTS, Bill - 47/18 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, Bill, the score was 14. 8 to 1 .4 at half-time!!
Your claim about Maric and Hammer is disproven by all the games the latter was preferred in 2016. I could go on and look at the Dogs game, but your credibility is already shot anyway after all that rubbish. Got better things to do.
I really appreciated Dyer're's post and rate his views way beyond yours. Each to their own. Please yourself, Bill.
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Bill James
Guest
leon said:
Let me do it for you, with Nank out and Soldo rucking......
We lost the total CLRs against the Dogs 40/32, we lost the I50's 62/47 but they lost the HIT OUTS, Leon - 27/50 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the bone is "hitouts don't matter as much as clearances" I'm your dog.
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easy_tiger
Guest
I thought big Ivan did a good job yesterday, he didn't get many stats, but he bashed & crashed with Mummy, he used his body to help the little blokes, also tackled & hurt a few Giants, admittedly gave away a few frees but a lot of their players would have been pretty sore after the game due to him. He also gave Nank a spell in the ruck which meant that Nank was able to run the game out better & had an influence in the last quarter.
He's come a long way Considering that he's only been playing for around 2.5 years. Yes he's still got a long way to go, but I like the way he's tracking.
He's come a long way Considering that he's only been playing for around 2.5 years. Yes he's still got a long way to go, but I like the way he's tracking.
Agree - Nankervis is finally being supported plus it gives us a second & bigger option when being beaten in the ruck as happened at the St Kilda game. Nankervis can compete when resting forward as well so in the absence of anything better in the VFL (and there isn't anything), we may as well stick with this. Second key forward is the number one recruiting issue to fix at season's end - need one mature body ready to go plus best young tall draft selection to be developed over the next 1-2 years.TT33 said:
an absolute bonus to be "alive" at this stage of the season and help fast track Soldo. Picking up the tempo of seniors, developing his craft, slowly gaining confidence and playing in a winning team. I still think he is at least 4 years away from the potential influence he may have as a big ruck man.
Still raw but upside may be huge.
Still raw but upside may be huge.
