Fires

[Tigers of Old]

To give you an idea Harry we calculate fire risk by calculating a Fire Danger Index (FDI). Fire management have kittens when it is between 80-100. The CFA's system cannot calculate a FDI beyond 100. On Saturday in SW Vic we were calculating on DSE system FDIs of 335!

That is litterally out of this world. :-\

 

[IanG]

It doesn't help now and not sure how easy it is to implement but I read a good suggestion the other day that houses in the Australian bush should be fitted with manditory underground fire shelters. Much like they have for tornados in the states. Does anyone know if this type of structure exists?

1 of the stories coming out is about a family that survived because they had a wine cellar which they hid in as the fires blew over. My wife's a civil engineer and she thinks that they should be mandatory. Oxygen supply is probably an issue in some instances, I dunno how the family in the wine cellar coped with the fire sucking up the oxygen.

 

[RemoteTiger]

I posted this on the General Board under the "How is everybody coping with the Heat" thread - but it is probably more appropriate here.......

The carnage is horrific, I am so deeply saddened by the loss of life, I am bewildered by the scenes of once picturesque towns and hamlets that I have been too or driven through in years gone by, now razed to the ground, I am astounded by the stories of heroes and heroines, I am in debt to the herculean efforts of the emergency services, in particular the CFA.

But the one thing I cannot remove from my memory is -

The look on the faces of those in the shelters as they are interviewed or just filmed by the TV crews. For me, the shear fear and yet stunned look on their faces is so emotionally moving that tears well in my eyes.

Yet whilst they have lost everything - house, car, belongings all they want to know is - if their neighbour, their mates are safe.
Whoever said the Aussie spirit of mateship is dead is wrong for we are witnessing it during Victoria's greatest hour of need.

God Bless them and please bring some relief into their lives............

 

[Tiger74]

Fair points raised mate. But I think we only "share" 2 heavy lift crane copters (could be wrong).
With fires in NSW, Vic and last year SA who decides where they go?
The reason I said sea water, there seems to be a dearth of freshwater around atm. With most fires would have been within 200-400k's of the coast, with a relay of planes or heavy lift copters it would be an hour or two flight time initially, then a constant relay in cycles
While I'm sure the farmers would need to cope with it, to me it could have been dumped near where people were at risk, that would be the priority.
Maybe something to look at in the aftermath review. Where Rudd was going to give out $42b and borrow another $200b, perhaps look at and building infrastructure that could pipe excess floodwater (ie from Nth Qld) and store it near NSW/Qld border. To help irrigation and provide a central water source for National Emergencies such as this.
Maybe "pie in the sky" but it needs looking into every alternative.
There have to be serious questions raised and solutions forthcoming.

I don't profess to be a fire-fighting expert WT, but I would have thought that with extra assets it could have helped slow the build up of fires. I know conditions were horrendous and a recipe for disaster, but with saturation bombing, even if it was in or around towns, it may have reduced some fatalities. But that alone, would not be enough. Early warning systems, fire-proof shelters. Maybe some people were just unaware of the speed these fires can travel. General apathy, who knows, we need more education with how to deal with such fire storms. When you see people standing in thongs and singlets spraying a garden hose it goes to show people aren't aware of the effects of radiant heat etc.
I think in the aftermath, more education, early warning systems, planned evacuation systems, water storage, underbrush/forestry growth management and building permits will all come under some scrutiny.
Bloody shame it wasn't in place prior to such loss.

Go to this website, there is a national body that co-ordinates all aerial resources

http://www.nafc.org.au/portal/DesktopDefault.aspx

in it, it details the aircraft used - there are 5 air-crane craft they have access to, out of a pool of 25 (that was in 2007 - with plans to increase this).

Also it comments on sea water in the FAQ. Didn't think of this, but damage to the aircraft apparently is a key issue, although it already is used.

 

[Willo]

Go to this website, there is a national body that co-ordinates all aerial resources

http://www.nafc.org.au/portal/DesktopDefault.aspx

in it, it details the aircraft used - there are 5 air-crane craft they have access to, out of a pool of 25 (that was in 2007 - with plans to increase this).

Also it comments on sea water in the FAQ. Didn't think of this, but damage to the aircraft apparently is a key issue, although it already is used.

Thanks for that mate. Very informative.
So sea water can be used (with the right equipment).
Terrible conditions, but we were still caught short.

The carnage is horrific, I am so deeply saddened by the loss of life, I am bewildered by the scenes of once picturesque towns and hamlets that I have been too or driven through in years gone by, now razed to the ground, I am astounded by the stories of heroes and heroines, I am in debt to the herculean efforts of the emergency services, in particular the CFA.

But the one thing I cannot remove from my memory is -

The look on the faces of those in the shelters as they are interviewed or just filmed by the TV crews. For me, the shear fear and yet stunned look on their faces is so emotionally moving that tears well in my eyes.

Yet whilst they have lost everything - house, car, belongings all they want to know is - if their neighbour, their mates are safe.
Whoever said the Aussie spirit of mateship is dead is wrong for we are witnessing it during Victoria's greatest hour of need.

God Bless them and please bring some relief into their lives............

My thoughts too RT. Well said mate.

 

[Ruby]

its just crushing....i have sat at the computer with my hands on my face just reading things...it is so so so sad


we have a holiday place up at thornton, near taggerty and eildon...i have rung and offered it to who ever needs it...if thornton goes i will be truly devastated...i all ready am actaully.... we were up there only a few weeks ago...when we drive to our holiday place we go through narbethong, and buxton..and taggerty...and if not that way then we go home through glenburn etc...it is all way to real and way to close..after all this has come to a close we will have to go ack to our cravan park and i am sure i will be in shock all the way...i spoke to the owner of the caravan park a couple of hours ago at thornton and she sounded so distraught...she said they were under ember attack and had been for hours....my thoughts are with them and all the other people so affected by the fires

.

Ronnit

I have also been devasted by the news. We own land up at Buxton. Used to have a house up there, but sold that several years ago. We have hung onto about 60 acres on the hill beyond the Buxton Primary School and Municipal Hall - behind the Igloo Road House. The block used to extend past Seal Rock (but no longer). Being going up there all my life. I am gutted that the entire area may have been burnt out and houses lost. I am even more devasted at the loss of life in the area and across Victoria. My heart go out to everyone who has lost family and friends.

How dreadful is it that Marysville has been raised (probably the most beautiful and picturesque country town in Victoria). It is difficult to comprehend that Narbethong has been destroyed (along with that faux tudor style road house that I have been driving past for longer than I can remember). Hopefuly the fire has not been through the Black Spur (hopefully the fires around the Healsville area don't spread up that way).

If anyone knows anything about what has happened up at Buxton, I would appreciate any news. Is the Buxton pub gone? The General Store? I heard a rumour that the trout farm is gone. What about the Igloo? The papers have not reported any deaths in Buxton, so I hope everyone made it out.

Also hope your place at Thornton remains safe. Thorton is a beautiful spot. While I haven't been up that far for a while, I used to love crossing that old ricketty wooden bridge on the back road to Eildon. Is it still there or has it been remade into a concrete monstrosity? Good luck!

My thoughts are with everyone who is in the area.

 

[Rosy]

This is scary as...everyone waiting on tenterhooks. The radio giving acute warnings for our district but nobody, even the local CFA, know what's happening. Had burnt leaves blown into our yard yesterday. More ash and debris in the air each day and at times you can hardly see your hand in front of your face the smoke is so thick. Cooler today has meant the fire activity didn't increase that much over night but the wind is really picking up now.

I went to the local refuge centre yesterday to help in any way I could as well as try to find missing friends. Absolutely heartbreaking. All the people from Marysville, Narby and Buxton. The ones with no home left seem so fortunate compared to others.

Went to town to visit someone in hospital today. They're stretched to the limit there. It's hard to look people in the eye walking down the street whereas I usually say hello and smile at everyone I pass. Everyone is lost, shellshocked and shattered. I want to offer to take soem of their dogs and care for them but they'd be at more risk here. They probably wouldn't want to part with them anyway. One lady hugged me crying and told me her dogs were all she had left in the world now. She felt so lucky she still had them.

Ruby was talking a freind from Buxton at the refuge centre. The Igloo has gone but pretty much the rest of the town was saved. Can't say about the trout farm but the pub and the store are ok. The whole district is being treated as a crime zone.


My love and gratitude goes out to all volunteers who put their lives, and own properties, at risk to help save others.

The winds are really picking up now...unfortunately things are likely to get far worse before they get better.

Thanks again for the messages, phone calls and text messages. Keep safe everyone. Tragic times but my shattered heart is proud of how everyone is banding together in the sorrow.

 

[TigerForce]

Rosy, are you in Healesville or Hurstbridge?

 

[Rosy]

Due to experience with threats by lowlife internet stalkers I'd rather not post where I live TF.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby was talking a freind from Buxton at the refuge centre. The Igloo has gone but pretty much the rest of the town was saved. Can't say about the trout farm but the pub and the store are ok. The whole district is being treated as a crime zone.

Rosy

Thanks for the news. I will try to head up that way on the weekend if the fires at Healsville have been contained and the roads have reopened. That said, I don't want to get in the way of fire and police services simply to check over property damage.

Good luck and stay safe!

 

[Rosy]

SorryRuby..I think I might be confused with names. Not sure what it's called but it's the petrol station on the Melb end of town that I was told has been burnt out.

 

[Ruby]

SorryRuby..I think I might be confused with names. Not sure what it's called but it's the petrol station on the Melb end of town that I was told has been burnt out.

Rosy

There are two that I am aware of. There is the old Golden Fleece on the Narbethong side of town (left hand side of the Highway driving towards Alex, before the river). Then there is the Igloo (home of the Buxton Burger) on the right hand side of the Highway as you leave Buxton towards Alex. The newspapers don't identify the Buxton PS as being destroyed, so I am holding out hope (possibly misguided) that Buxton has not been totally raised (and that many people's homes have survived).

I note that we don't have an emoticon with crossed fingers. If we did, I would be using it now.

 

[ronnit]

i sure home its not the buxton burger shop!!! i heard the pub was gone but rosys info is probably more reliable,..i have not heard anything today from anyone at thornton ...as far as i know they are in direct threat as we speak...as for the bridge ruby...if you mean the one neear the school..on the way to eildon..it is concrete!!

 

[benny_furs]

We seem to find $1b for Indonesia, donate patrol boats, $100m for Friendship Bridge in Vietnam etc, etc. I don't mean this as any sort of political rant, but I can't help thinking that the money invested in our Defence Forces could be better spent and utilised in helping to protect our own people at home, when needed.

Interesting topic, I'm not sure I agree though.

Should we spend more money on precautions for ourselves? How much is enough? How much can we afford to give away to help others?

I wouldn't want to be like a rich kid going to school with 50 bucks for lunch and refusing to lend a poor kid he's friends with 5 bucks for food because "I might get hungry later". We can spend all the money in the world and still be hit by an unforeseen disaster. If a neighbour is suffering then I'd like to help them out on the basis that you simply can't prepare for all tragedies.

Spending it on neighbours where disaster has already hit guarantees 100% of the money is helping people. It's a more efficient use of our resources, and while many of us are affected by these fires I don't think there were many reasonable measure we could have taken to prevent them. There are ways, but risk vs cost?

We already live in one of the safest and wealthiest countries in the world. How important or realistic is it to try and almost completely remove all the risks that could affect our lives? That is what it would take to prevent the fires we have seen in recent days. You would need extreme precautions for every disaster that could occur.

No, we have done the right thing by spending millions of dollars on countries in desperate need of help. The option of ignoring our neighbours while they suffered so we could eliminate unlikely risks for ourselves was never really an option.

Because don't forget, these fires are a rare disaster on this scale.

Preventions for a rare disaster come second priority to one that has already taken place to our neighbours.

 

[Willo]

Interesting topic, I'm not sure I agree though.

Should we spend more money on precautions for ourselves? How much is enough? How much can we afford to give away to help others?

I wouldn't want to be like a rich kid going to school with 50 bucks for lunch and refusing to lend a poor kid he's friends with 5 bucks for food because "I might get hungry later". We can spend all the money in the world and still be hit by an unforeseen disaster. If a neighbour is suffering then I'd like to help them out on the basis that you simply can't prepare for all tragedies.

Spending it on neighbours where disaster has already hit guarantees 100% of the money is helping people. It's a more efficient use of our resources, and while many of us are affected by these fires I don't think there were many reasonable measure we could have taken to prevent them. There are ways, but risk vs cost?

We already live in one of the safest and wealthiest countries in the world. How important or realistic is it to try and almost completely remove all the risks that could affect our lives? That is what it would take to prevent the fires we have seen in recent days. You would need extreme precautions for every disaster that could occur.

No, we have done the right thing by spending millions of dollars on countries in desperate need of help. The option of ignoring our neighbours while they suffered so we could eliminate unlikely risks for ourselves was never really an option.

Because don't forget, these fires are a rare disaster on this scale.

Preventions for a rare disaster come second priority to one that has already taken place to our neighbours.

I never said that we should ingore our neighbours Benny. But one thing irks me is that, the tsunami disaster aside, we can donate patrol boats etc to Indonesia and "aid" to other countries, they don't seem to go short on providing weapons for their own.

These fires aside, we still seem to be lacking funds for health care for our own people. I just believe our money could be utilised more prudently "at home" in many cases.
I guess if you spoke to any CFA/CFS organization and asked them if they were fully equipped with all the modern appliances/pumps trucks, air support etc, I bet they wouldn't say they've got all they need or the best money could buy. Why haven't they got it? We live in an environment thats so susceptible to major bush fires. If, as you say we are such a wealthy nation, why are being stiffed in so many areas that could be addressed.

 

[Angie]

My partner and I are still reeling... we lost our house and everything we own (including my Richmond membership) when the fire ripped through our place in St Andrews on Saturday. We are lucky to have got out - we had already deemed our house 'not worth saving' (it needed a lot of work)... just wish we'd had time to pack a bag though - if I had known the clothes I was wearing on Saturday morning would be the only ones I would own by Saturday night, I might have made a different choice. And like most people, we can tell a harrowing tale of fleeing in terror, but you've probably heard enough of that in the past few days and I can assure you, I've had enough of recounting it.

The support from family and friends has been amazing but a special mention from me must go to the volunteers at the Diamond Creek 'situation room' and the Red Cross and Dept of Human Services. As someone who has always lived a fairly comfortable life and never had to rely on government support or charity, I have been humbled by the 'no questions asked' support that has been provided. And we're in a better situation than most - we have a place to stay, we still have our cars and our livelihoods have not been affected. I've been watching the news and thinking, 'those poor people', only to pull myself up and realise I'm one of them too. My heart goes out to everyone who has lost their homes but even more so to those who lost family and friends... I feel overwhelmed by the enormity of what has happened to us - I can't imagine how they must feel.

We're insured and we'll rebuild but it will certainly be a different place to live... most houses on our road are gone and our neighbours on both sides perished trying to save their houses. Absolutely shattering.

I'm sure a huge 2009 from the Tigers will go some way to cheering us all up.

 

[Scoop]

Shocking. Have been been flat out trying to help family in Kinglake who have lost everything. You cannot grasp the enormity of what is happening. And is still happening, this is far from over. For the first time ever, a lot of the things you think are important actually mean very little. Your value system is rearranged. The only thing that impresses me is the ability of the human spirit to just keep going, people just pushing on, one foot in front of the other.

 

[Rosy]

Angie my heart goes out to you.

We're on high alert here but at least have had warning to be prepared for the worst. I'm glad you're ok...buidings can be replaced but life can't. I'm sure everyone will band together in an unprecedented way to help get everyone back on track.

When we've got power and things aren't quite as scary I try to log on to PRE and keep some kind of normality. This waiting in terror and not knowing what is going to happen is awful. The wind is really strong this morning and is bringing in lots of burnt matter.

We've decided to stay and fight but I think I'll pack some treasures like photos and things the kids made when they were little and get it to a safe place just in case.

Keep your chin up Angie. Your Tiger family will stick by you. :grouphug

 

[WesternTiger]

Angie my heart goes out to you.

We're on high alert here but at least have had warning to be prepared for the worst. I'm glad you're ok...buidings can be replaced but life can't. I'm sure everyone will band together in an unprecedented way to help get everyone back on track.

When we've got power and things aren't quite as scary I try to log on to PRE and keep some kind of normality. This waiting in terror and not knowing what is going to happen is awful. The wind is really strong this morning and is bringing in lots of burnt matter.

We've decided to stay and fight but I think I'll pack some treasures like photos and things the kids made when they were little and get it to a safe place just in case.

Keep your chin up Angie. Your Tiger family will stick by you. :grouphug

Good luck Rosy and look after yourself.

 

[tigertim]

I have recently moved out to a 5 acre property in the semi rural area of Officer ( goodbye Frankston!) which is surrounded by "trees" and will one day be threatened by fire. We both agree that if (or when) it comes we get out early and *smile* trying to save the house. We are more important than appliances and weatherboards!