Roar, that is a reasonable point, but it might be best for everyone if the conversation about racism stops now. History suggests threads about racism on PRE never go well and end with more work for mods and threads locked.
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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Feminism
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
I can’t comment on your mindset, and fear levels, and it wouldn’t be fair for me to either.
I took exception to the message the post sent about how we treat/address/interact with people based on their race in a casual meeting.
Yeah I skimmed it so missed the first part, apologies PT. I'll go back and read more carefully.
Fair enough. I’ve generally stayed away for fear of being blown up for saying the wrong thing accidentally.
...that’s probably not a good thing either.
As I attempted to explain, race wasn't the sole factor. It was a factor. The sidestreet (Little Victoria St) having no properties facing the street was another. Brickwork all round. A good place to get mugged.
Anyway...
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Well at some stage there is someone illegally conspired to deprive a woman of a job which should have hers on merit. At least I think that's what the argument is. Hence the pay gap. Right? How does the 'system' support this when gender discrimination is illegal?
What's wrong with it is that discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong. Its not about power in my view - if it is, like I argued before, then discrimination is not wrong and it is a legitimate tool (for all people) in the pursuit of power. The pursuit of power is not immoral.
No both racial and sex discrimination are wrong. But both are illegal so that would seem to me to have been dealt with.
I think change was always going to be generational, it was never going to happen overnight.
People make choices, women have babies. There are always going to be consequences. I don't think it should preclude women from being in the highest offices as indeed it doesn't given the example of Jacinda Ardern. Women do get generous maternity leave benefits which are not available to the same extent as men. To me raising children is of vast and under-rated importance. Quality parenting produces quality citizens - to choose family over a high flying career is not a poor choice although it may be sacrificial.
Racial and sexual discrimination are illegal so that has been dealt with?
FFS are you seriously saying that people of colour and women are treated just the same as white fellas?
If that is the case then what is your explanation for the fact that men outnumber women in cabinet, in CEO positions, in senior positions across the workforce and there is still a gender pay gap?
This is totally about power, what else is it about? It is all about how men have more power to further their interests than women do. When power is tied to sex at birth or skin colour it is wrong.
DS
FFS are you seriously saying that people of colour and women are treated just the same as white fellas?
If that is the case then what is your explanation for the fact that men outnumber women in cabinet, in CEO positions, in senior positions across the workforce and there is still a gender pay gap?
This is totally about power, what else is it about? It is all about how men have more power to further their interests than women do. When power is tied to sex at birth or skin colour it is wrong.
DS
maybe Djevv can let Lee know terrorism is also illegal so he no longer needs to fear every Muslim he meets wants to behead him.
David what are you doing personally and in your workplace to promote equality?
I think it has to be a group effort and a step by step process to get better outcomes. Interested to know what ideas you have.
I’m trying in my family unit 2 daughters and a son to support my wife in bringing 3 children up in a way that they feel anything is possible. And with hard work they reap the rewards. I hope that I raise my children to be happy, confident and great human beings.
Well for a start I am pushing back against the attitudes above that apparently everything is fine and equality is already with us despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
The push back on this just shows how far we have to go.
Always excuses, blame lies elsewhere, nothing to do with a system biased towards men.
No wonder we get nowhere on these issues.
DS
The push back on this just shows how far we have to go.
Always excuses, blame lies elsewhere, nothing to do with a system biased towards men.
No wonder we get nowhere on these issues.
DS
What persuasion was that Colorado gunman the other day? What does it say that nobody even bothered to log in in the terrorism thread?
Politics is a tough game. Tough like boxing, but different. We've got a female defence minister who's about to be shuffled because the job is too tough. It's already been mentioned that women aren't queing up for tough jobs. Only one in three Young Liberals are women. And quotas are the Devil.
There is no gender pay gap below the level of negotiated salaries. None. Stop banging on about it.
What is the ratio of women: men applying for senior management positions? Without those numbers you cannot claim there is bias in promotion. If you've taken time off to have children you are going to automatically possess less experience than other applicants of the same age. Women also take more sick days and tend to be clockwatchers... 5pm, gotta pick up kids/go to gym/make dinner appointment. Are they as dedicated to progression as their male colleagues, or do they simply expect to get ahead, just because?
When it comes to leadership, people still lean towards having a male in charge. Not sure whether it's a common experience, but men generally seemed to have better control of the classroom while I was at school (there were extreme exceptions like Mrs Weekes who locked my classmate in a curpboard and had us all terrified. I have stories - lots of stories!). Women generally are perceived to be more emotional and are more prone to mental illness. I don't know how you get around this perception that men make better leaders.
What do you think makes people change their views?
Anger and frustration just create more anger and frustration In my opinion and leads folk to dig in.
Clearly you are passionate about this and frustrated with the status quo.
I find myself generally reacting emotionally to your posts in a negative way even though I agree with much of what you say. e.g. IMO societies norms favor financial outcomes for white men but there have clearly been some dramatic shifts in behaviours and attitudes and outcomes over time and the average wage of men and women being equal as a goal in of itself seems a Too one dimensional goal - although it is easy to measure and it is a reasonable proxy for many things but definitely not all things. You seem to ignore these other factors in your responses which would probably explain my reaction as it doesn’t feel like you are listening or acknowledge the responses of others.
So I guess it depends if you are venting or actually trying to have people think about things in a different way. It’s great here we all have the tigers in common. I actually find great interest in trying to understand different peoples views on various topics and sometimes it changes the way I think about things. It seems to be the most civil place I’ve seen for discussion online.
With all respect maybe there is a better way to have people understand where you are coming from and maybe understanding where others are coming from too. I found this interesting as these guys came up with a way to get democrats and republicans talking which seems impossible. Trying to help so I hope this doesn’t come across as condescending. Admire your passion.
i 100% agree no pay gap for same work. pretty sure this has been eliminated in Australia at least almost 100%
for senior management representation you need it to start with recruitment. To get adequate representation of any group you need hiring to be in those ratios too and Then you are looking 20 years down the road assuming you get applicants. It’s a tough thing to change because ’integrity of selection’ is critical Too. Starts with everyone feeling like they can make it in that profession.
not sure how You can assert to having a man in charge being a preference . Generally I find male leaders to be lacking in EQ relative to female leaders and being poor people managers. Fear as a motivator from Some of the men who taught in school may control a classroom but not sure that is what you want from a leader. Would you follow Cameron or dimma? What we want from a leader is subjective too and I think In general you want a variety of perspective to get better decisions.
myers Briggs studies and brain science (men are from Mars / women are from Venus) clearly show female brains activate much more (typically) in the social space. i have no comment on mental illness percentages - maybe women are more likely to seek help and get diagnosed? men clearly suicide successfully a lot more. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women _ maybe because men don’t know how to deal with emotions because generally we see them as ‘bad’. I think you are confirming this in your post. This is being acknowledged more widely now with things like ‘r u ok day’ and the talk it out game this week for spud.
since separating I have more child care responsibilities. I get my job done and work different hours sometimes when the kids are asleep to do it. But sometimes I leave at 330pm to pick the kids Up I’d put it to you that women (or men) who manage all this stuff and a career are far more balanced and usually effective than folks who just do work. I’m sure there are some too who exploit it But IMO those folk don’t get the promotions. generally Outcomes and not time at work is the measuring stick For any job that works this way.
There's a difference between emotions and "emotional". The belief that the latter is a negative trait is time-honoured, perpetuated by such things as the (now obsolete) practice of naming cyclones exclusively after women. It was pointed out that Linda Reynolds was unsuited as defence minister after becoming "emotional" and requiring leave. That doesn't get the respect of leaders from e.g. China. And now she's being shuffled, justifiably IMO.
Would need to see some suicide data before commenting on that. Are the males committing suicide successful family men, or unemployed/substance abusers/mentally unstable? More women attempt suicide than men.
Oh yeah. I'm not saying being a workaholic is good or healthy or even desirable. But those ultra-dedicated people tend to reap the rewards.
agree. It’s like anything. If you 100% dedicate to one thing you will get pretty good at it (you would hope!) but probably forgo and burn other things. It’s what we are looking for stack to do.
for those with families they are probably missing out on a lot (maybe they don’t care) and relying on either paid or family caregiving. certainly The most senior folks where I work do the 80+ hour work weeks regularly. Not for me.
Morrison has been putting on the emotion the last few days. does that make him unsuited to be PM? or because he is a fake we just ignore because we know an advisor told him to look upset?
Porter was pretty emotional before going on leave. should he be booted too?
im am not sure to be honest.
What persuasion was that Atlanta gunman the other day? What does it say that nobody even bothered to log in in the terrorism thread?
That gunman is actually suspected of targeting women of an ethnic group.
an article about some actual research on the gender pay gap.
www.theage.com.au
Gender wage gap may never close for some women, research finds
New research shows businesses that work at it can close their gender pay gaps. But in some areas, the gap may never be closed.
Disappointing that acting was required and that the ABC set out to publicly destroy Porter (who is aalso being shuffled). The ABC deserves to be sued off the face of the earth.
