Why should women be expected to balance career and family but men aren't? Why do you assume that this is a choice for women and not for men? Men seem to have had the best of both worlds without question.
DS
-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Feminism
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
Why should women be expected to balance career and family but men aren't? Why do you assume that this is a choice for women and not for men? Men seem to have had the best of both worlds without question.
DS
If anybody was in any doubt that feminism has a lot more work to do then this thread is proof that there is so far to go.
What have we seen here?
When you claim to treat everyone the same then what you do is to perpetuate existing advantage and make sure that systemic discrimination is perpetuated.
Where is the responsibility of men here? All the focus is on how women need to somehow change their behaviour to fix issues. But it is men who benefit from the gender wage gap, it is men who are overwhelmingly the predators in sexual violence, it is men who run the world.
The defensiveness of those arguing feminism is somehow no longer needed is revealing.
DS
What have we seen here?
- Paranoia about quotas because that might threaten the advantages men have.
- Apparently women need to balance career and family but somehow men (who are also parents) don't. It is a joint choice of both parents to have children, and a joint responsibility to raise children.
- Blaming women for the gender wage gap.
- Apparently women choose to do lower paid jobs and not pursue higher level jobs
- That somehow the disadvantages of women are individual not systemic.
- Blaming women for their being unsafe in public contexts where men are not unsafe.
When you claim to treat everyone the same then what you do is to perpetuate existing advantage and make sure that systemic discrimination is perpetuated.
Where is the responsibility of men here? All the focus is on how women need to somehow change their behaviour to fix issues. But it is men who benefit from the gender wage gap, it is men who are overwhelmingly the predators in sexual violence, it is men who run the world.
The defensiveness of those arguing feminism is somehow no longer needed is revealing.
DS
There aren't any rules that relationships must follow. It's up to each couple to work out an arrangement that suits. I still can't see that the complaint boils down to anything more than a rant about being the child-bearer and traditional chief nurturer.
You want a career as well? Fine. Make choices and arrangements to suit.
Read an article a couple of months back suggesting everyone in Canberra was rooting everyone else. Presumably it's mostly consensual and the promiscuity is not all one way.
The higher the employment rank, the greater the expectation that you'll be on deck. Not sure what alternative there is except... lower salary in return for flexibility?
Yeah it's fair to say that "women's rights" are a long way down my priority list. Go and whinge to your husband, I'm just minding my own business.
One of my mates recently split with his wife (blames the lockdown). A large power imbalance is now evident - no prizes for guessing which way.
Last edited:
Why are women the default chief nurturer?
Why is it only mothers who have to make the choice between career and family and not fathers?
DS
Similar to comments I have made on other forums. I am a reasonably culturally/socially conservative person, because I had quite a traditionalist upbringing, very close to my maternal grandparents and value highly many of the old world values they instilled in me. This is not to deny that there have always been terrible things going on regarding male behaviour towards women. But in actual fact it is largely the antithesis of gentlemanly, chivalrous values I was taught in my personal experience.
The masculine values I picked up from my grandfather were to be self-disciplined, stoic, strong, responsible, reserved and restrained. Be humble and live with the duty and responsibility to serve your family (and by extension, take this into your community life). Don't let your emotions too much out into the open. And by extension, recognising the fact that as a male you do have burning urges that intensifies one's sexuality. But similar to acting restrained, reserved and with self-discipline regarding emotions, you also have a responsibility to keep those sexual urges in check. It's part of growing up and being a responsible adult man. Not doing so in my mind is a sign of weakness. And the consumerist culture of hedonism as people's central reason for being, denigrates much of that ideal of self control and restraint. And hence the disgusting behaviour like that being called out in Parliament seems to be on steroids.
There is an inconvenient truth for a lot people of the social constructionist school of thought, in that men and women are very different in their motivations from a biological point of view and hence, what this does to their conscience and psychology (a grossly generalised point of view I acknowledge, but it cannot be entirely denied as some try to). But like I say, this doesn't excuse bad behaviour. Just as failing to be stoic and reserved in relation to one's emotions is a sign of weakness of character. So too is a lack of self control regarding one's sexual urges. Blaming others for this lack of self-discipline and self-control (due to what they were wearing, or weren't wearing etc) is a cop out and only exacerbates how mentally weak one is.
I see women who I find attractive every day. I'm red blooded heterosexual male, with thousands of years of genetic programming behind me, who loves women. But doesn't mean I feel the need to look them up and down, ogle them or try and get them all into bed. Well, the fact I'm married also has something to do with that. Actually taking my marriage vows seriously. Not as a temporary arrangement for a couple of years, until something better comes along as self-serving popular culture seems to have evolved towards.
But even before I was married. Sure I find in general, women very attractive. I have raging hormones like everyone else. But as well as the obvious attraction, it was a mixture of respect, adoration, and cherishing amusement. If one loves women, why would you want to hurt them? I just don't get it. True, I was raised mainly by my mother who was a fairly firm hand - a relatively strict disciplinarian - who just wouldn't have stood for the types of attitudes I see in some blokes. A clip around the ear from her (or my maternal grandfather) would have been extremely forthcoming. But the disdaining shame I would have brought on myself and the family would act as a big self regulator also.
The masculine values I picked up from my grandfather were to be self-disciplined, stoic, strong, responsible, reserved and restrained. Be humble and live with the duty and responsibility to serve your family (and by extension, take this into your community life). Don't let your emotions too much out into the open. And by extension, recognising the fact that as a male you do have burning urges that intensifies one's sexuality. But similar to acting restrained, reserved and with self-discipline regarding emotions, you also have a responsibility to keep those sexual urges in check. It's part of growing up and being a responsible adult man. Not doing so in my mind is a sign of weakness. And the consumerist culture of hedonism as people's central reason for being, denigrates much of that ideal of self control and restraint. And hence the disgusting behaviour like that being called out in Parliament seems to be on steroids.
There is an inconvenient truth for a lot people of the social constructionist school of thought, in that men and women are very different in their motivations from a biological point of view and hence, what this does to their conscience and psychology (a grossly generalised point of view I acknowledge, but it cannot be entirely denied as some try to). But like I say, this doesn't excuse bad behaviour. Just as failing to be stoic and reserved in relation to one's emotions is a sign of weakness of character. So too is a lack of self control regarding one's sexual urges. Blaming others for this lack of self-discipline and self-control (due to what they were wearing, or weren't wearing etc) is a cop out and only exacerbates how mentally weak one is.
I see women who I find attractive every day. I'm red blooded heterosexual male, with thousands of years of genetic programming behind me, who loves women. But doesn't mean I feel the need to look them up and down, ogle them or try and get them all into bed. Well, the fact I'm married also has something to do with that. Actually taking my marriage vows seriously. Not as a temporary arrangement for a couple of years, until something better comes along as self-serving popular culture seems to have evolved towards.
But even before I was married. Sure I find in general, women very attractive. I have raging hormones like everyone else. But as well as the obvious attraction, it was a mixture of respect, adoration, and cherishing amusement. If one loves women, why would you want to hurt them? I just don't get it. True, I was raised mainly by my mother who was a fairly firm hand - a relatively strict disciplinarian - who just wouldn't have stood for the types of attitudes I see in some blokes. A clip around the ear from her (or my maternal grandfather) would have been extremely forthcoming. But the disdaining shame I would have brought on myself and the family would act as a big self regulator also.
Last edited:
Why are women endowed with breast milk? Obviously the bond between a mother and child is different, having carried the embryo/fetus for 40 weeks followed by the ordeal of giving birth. But if dad is happy to take over so mum can go straight back to work and not miss a chance for promotion, good luck to them.
You appear to be raging against nature. A futile fight if ever I saw one.
Isn't that "chest milk" in the more inclusive Orwellian Newspeak dialect?
This one is the best. Have you never felt unsafe on the streets at night?
Was walking back to my car in Fitzroy late one night carrying the work laptop in a nice leather bag. Turned down a sidestreet on my usual route and there are three Africans walking towards me. OK I say to myself, keep going straight and take the next right. And damned if there aren't four more Africans coming from that direction! This is a couple weeks after a murder (unsolved AFAIK) in Condell St where a cabbie was rolled for his takings around the same time of night. Do you think my heart didn't jump or I didn't start thinking about what to do if they pulled knives or jumped me?
I shouldn't have had to feel unsafe as the price for working late, but if they'd stabbed me full of holes I would've had plenty of time to regret taking the dark streets instead of going the long way in the light down Smith St.
There have been other experiences of fear. Had my head kicked in as a teenager by some guy named Trevor in a case of mistaken identity. I might not be here if his mate hadn't pulled him away. True, I don't fear rape, but I'm wary of dark streets. It's different, but it's the same.
Last edited:
Mmmm I will play a straight bat and suggest "breast" is more accurate, and adequate.
It's true. Sexism doesn't exist, and I'll prove it with Racism.
How is that racist? That is personal experience and factual based on what I’m reading.
Why aren’t men encouraged to do more? Why can’t men work in childcare industries without being labeled? To make real change I think you have to look at men’s rights and expectations in equal measure.
Was Trevor of African descent?
Lee reads to much New Corpse therefor thinks all dark skinned people and Muslims are evil.
Nah, Trevor was a drunken angry white 20-something.
On a previous night walking through Fitzroy, almost collided with a 6ft6 African bloke on a blind corner. I stepped back and said sorry mate; he had pinwheels for eyes and looked right through me, gave me chills. He was off his dial. Had the distinct feeling if I'd said the wrong thing I was a goner. So that coloured the encounter described above; there are commission flats in the area with a lot of Africans. But you can call it racism if you wish.
Can you please show examples of this gender wage gap - specifically women being paid less for doing the same role. Real world examples. Or are you merely arguing for lower paid jobs to get increased wages? Perhaps you could then explain who funds such arbitrary increases?
I suppose in childcare a solution would be make it all free (I think free childcare has merit personally) by having the gov't subsidise it. And then you could increase the wages by increasing the subsidies? Problem is you'd probably find more men seeking out childcare jobs.
Still don’t understand how that is racist? I missed the memo that said you can’t describe someone of African descent, Asian descent, Indigenous descent etc.
You are still yet to explain how it is racist? Please tell me best practice how you would describe what Lee went through in his life example?
Last edited:
Is it true that the "toxic alpha males" responsible are actually homosexuals? And the desks that were defiled belonged to MPs who voted against gay marriage?
The video swapping thing never made much sense, until now...
Last edited:
