Don,t Fly the Flag | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Don,t Fly the Flag

tigersnake said:
Thing is people say those things without having much knowledge of history and no understanding of it. This post is a small attempt at a history lesson, probably a fairly futile attempt. People who are genuinely sympathetic to indigenous issues will appreciate it, people who aren't will put up a wall, ignore it, see it as a personal attack, whatever.

Are you referring to anyone specific or any comments on this thread with those remarks? How do you judge "genuine" sympathy to indigenous issues?

The history lesson is well and good. Some atrocious things happened. I wish they didn't, and am very sad and sorry they did, but nothing will ever change the facts. Same with the war. Nothing will ever change what the Germans did, for example. We can harbour it and be bitter, and that's possibly the easiest option, or we can acknowledge it while trying and ensure a better future. It will never be easy but an us against them tent city attitude will make it harder.

tigersnake said:
You say 'some seem to want to wallow in the past and some want to heal the wrongs' as if they are opposed or mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. Nobody wants to live in what is a horrific past. But in order to heal the wrongs, people have to face up to the past. It hasn't happened, its not happening, and there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest it ever will happen.

I didn't mean it that way at all.

I assume you mean non-Aboriginal people need to face up to the past? Do you think Aboriginal people have a role to play there as well as in being willing to move on in order to help their cause? You might think having the tent city is helping to show all is not right but I think there are far better ways to do it. You don't have to forgive and you don't have to forget but you have to make an effort in order to move forward.

Elly Bennets had a sad and tragic past but nobody around now was responsible for that. He would probably be a rich man under today's laws. We've come a long way. Is it best to focus on how tragic things were in the past or work on making them better for the future.
 
Deleted - Messages shouldn’t threaten or humiliate any other person or contain personal insults.
 
tigersnake said:
Found this old post FWIW:

As I’ve already said I’m over this debate. I’m sure people are getting sick of me saying it then I come back in.

Obviously nothing I say is going to change anyones mind. If people really want to believe that blacks get given too much, are hopeless and get just as much opportunity as anyone else, it seems they are gunna keep believing that regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

I’ll tell you a story though. You can look it up on google to check any wrong facts. It’s a good story, and a good illustration of what blacks have been up against until fairly recently.

Elly Bennett was born in Cherbourg south Qld in 1924, a pretty poor aboriginal community that was an old mission then, on the outskirts of Murgon. (Chris Sandow and Steve Renouf are from there for NRL fans). He started off as a labourer, cane cutting and other farm work, and used to box in the boxing tents when they came to town and bet on himself to make extra dough. He was good so one of the shows put him on, he was quickly identified as being too good for the tents and began to fight as a pro.

He became Aus bantamweight champ from 1948-51, then he moved to featherweight and held the Aus championship from 1951-1954. His pro record ended up being 59 fights for 40 knockout wins. His fights included Cecil Shoemaker of the US who was ranked No. 1 at the time, Elly knocked him out. Bennett tried to fight the Mexican Ortiz for the WC but he refused the fight.

Later, a fight was set up with Vic Trowell of South Africa who had beaten Ortiz and held the title. Trowell pulled out at the last minute after discovering Bennett was aboriginal. Bennett also fought Jimmy Carruthers but lost to the champ on points.

Elly Bennetts earning were estimated at 12,000 pounds, roughly $3-4 million in today’s money. He never saw a cent. Under Queensland law at the time, laws that weren’t repealed until the late 1960s, blacks were’nt entitled to receive any income they earned. Didn’t matter if you were a pro boxer, can cutter, nurse, whatever. It all went to the local ‘Aboriginal protector’, who was usually the police sergeant, and could pay a discretionary amount of 'pocket money' to the black worker. The rest of the money, in theory, was paid into the Aboriginal Welfare fund, This was a state government fund that was meant to benefit aborigines in general statewide. The reality of this policy was that corrupt protectors usually creamed some off the top, blacks often couldn’t read or write, then because blacks had no political power, the Queensland government just dipped into the Welfare fund whenever they were short of cash, to fix roads or whatever, eroding it to virtually nothing.

Elly Bennett died broke in Bundaberg in 1981.

You might ask ‘what has this got to do with us now, in this day and age?’ Well I’d say a lot. The way Australian culture, society and economics has evolved means that white people, our ancestors, have always been entitled to earn as much as we can, and keep that money and spend it how we see fit. Usually, in the case of my family at least, this means that people earn money, feed, clothe and educate their kids. Each generation gets it a bit better. For example my great grandparent were dirt poor, my grandparents were just poor, my parents were'nt poor. Each generation is better educated, more confident and has higher expectations.

These basic rights tha we take for granted were denied to black people. If fact the reverse is true. State governments’ policies, not just Queensland, actively put up obstacles to deny black people the opportunity to improve things for their families. Like paying them at lower rates, then not letting them keep the lower pay they did earn. So in basic economic terms, aboriginal people are 100 years behind us. Those discriminatory policies are now gone, but we’ve had a massive head start. I'll say it again, a massive head start.

To say history doesn’t matter and everyone has the same opportunities just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Does James Packer’s kids have the same opportunities as Elly Bennett’s grandchildren?
[/quote elly,s grand kiddies have the same opportunities as mine GET OVER IT
 
mld said:
NIce to see the SS Tone offering up the best defence of the riot/flag burning that I have seen.
ITS SSS mate.and it was a RACE RIOT not disimaler to cronulla
 
ssstone said:
ITS SSS mate.and it was a RACE RIOT not disimaler to cronulla

one was a rowdy protest directed at politicians, one was a mob of people attacking and threatening people of another race, but yes besides minor details, not too dissimilar.
 
Brodders17 said:
one was a mob of people attacking and threatening people of another race, but yes besides minor details, not too dissimilar.
got it in 1
p.s
go and talk to the WHITES involved in cronulla and see how many years in the making it was and why
or read the agist and the Smug Moronic Haters for your one sided opine
 
Brodders17 said:
one was a rowdy protest directed at politicians, one was a mob of people attacking and threatening people of another race, but yes besides minor details, not too dissimilar.

Indeed. Gillard was lucky to be extricated from this position:

cronulla_wideweb__470x313,0.jpg
 
Martin Flanagan raises some good, thoughtful points in the paper today:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/why-we-need-to-find-a-new-date-for-australia-day-20120127-1qlr4.html

I am not sure that i agree with his choice of a new Australia Day, but it's thought provoking.
 
Dead against changing Australia Day to coincide with war in any way. If it needs to be changed I'd much prefer a date not associated with past history. I'd be more accepting if a date was plucked out of the air. I wonder if people would still protest no matter what day is designated to celebrate our wonderful country.

The quotes support my belief that the tent city protesters are a minority and not reflective of Aboriginal beliefs overall. They do the cause more harm than good.
 
I agree. No war days.

What about a random date. Make it a long weekend, like the Queen's Birthday one. Or replace that one with Australia Day.

Seems like if it's tagged to an event it can't be inclusive.
 
The new Australia Day should clearly be on 20 February, to commemorate the formation of RFC.
 
They burnt the flag to make a point and capitalise on media exposure from the Australia Day incident. It's a statement of what they're about, and lost them a heap of support.

The fact it wasn't illegal and there were no repercussions shows what Australia is about. I find the burning distasteful, but I'd rather see it being burnt than see a bunch of federal police storming in and arresting the people involved.

I reckon most people would agree that the flag is a symbol of tolerance. It may end-up getting burnt sometimes to demonstrate that tolerance. People can draw their own conclusions about the people who do the burning.

The greater aboriginal cause is a different matter. The disease, crime, and high mortality rate are massive issues. Whether we like it or not, the clash of cultures is a contributor. We can take the view that they just need to stop living in the past and wake up to themselves, then leave them to their lot. Or we can work with them to adapt both cultures and bridge the gap. The first option is easy, offers no lessons, and continues us down the path of a heartless, uncivil society. The second is much tougher, and requires creative, strong leadership, and a spirit of co-operation and unity. I know which I prefer for the sake of Australian society in general, but I wonder which one is most likely...
 
tigersnake, I agree with just about everything you say, however, reckon domestic violence, child abuse, substance abuse, unemployment and poor education trumps symbolic gestures - flags and tent cities. Wish our indigenous cousins could be seen to be as passionate and active and committed about those issues as the symbolic ones.

When are we going to see indigenous people protesting against domestic violence, child abuse, substance abuse etc perpetrated by indigenous australians?
 
glantone said:
When are we going to see indigenous people protesting against domestic violence, child abuse, substance abuse etc perpetrated by indigenous australians?

Very good question. As an Australian I want to help, but I want some indigenous leadership on improving their lot. Then I will start to take their concerns more seriously.
 
I'm pretty sure I remember some of the women from the communities around protesting about most of those things.
 
My comments on here were in relation to the rabble protesters and their flag burning, as per the title of the thread. I don't think for one second the trouble makers reflect the Aboriginal attitude in general. I also don't think they do the cause any good whatsoever. They are rude, have racist tendencies and are abusive. I comment from personal experience and the experience, in a professional capacity, of someone else close to me. When there's one rule for some and not for another things will always be divisive.