Don,t Fly the Flag | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Don,t Fly the Flag

tigersnake said:
I hope you didn't delete ssstone's post on my account Rosy. Its water off a ducks back to me, but you're the boss. I actually reckon it strengthens my argument. (its still there where I've quoted it anyway)

So now I'm a chattering upper-middle class elite handwringing apologist warmest moron. If you knew me, you'd think that was pretty funny.
i do know you snake and it aint funny ,apoligists like your self have alot to answer for ,did little kevvy saying sorry change anything? nup and will the likes of you and your pims sipping ,fairfax mates actully do any thing to improve the abo rigines lot.... nup
you just continue to divide under the guise of *smile* knows what
i and or any of my family have not shot,raped or dispersed any blacck australians.
and nor will i be made to feel gulty for them .the past is the past ...GET OVER IT AND JOIN THE REST OF US PEASANTS,
whom raise our kids ,pay taxes ,taxes that the likes of you throw at the basket case welfare addicted,feel SORRY for our selves pissant class that YOU AND YOURS HAVE ENABLED


indegenious............ means born to the land ,that includes me ,my wife and our kids
 
I love anaimals.
Us humans are born to hate. politics religion all that petty pussy crap.

I hope animals rule the World.
 
smasha said:
I love anaimals.
Us humans are born to hate. politics religion all that petty pussy crap.

I hope animals rule the World.,
yep smash pretty simple in the animal world
try and put a horse and a zebra in the same paddock
 
ssstone said:
i do know you snake and it aint funny ,apoligists like your self have alot to answer for ,did little kevvy saying sorry change anything? nup and will the likes of you and your pims sipping ,fairfax mates actully do any thing to improve the abo rigines lot.... nup
you just continue to divide under the guise of *smile* knows what
i and or any of my family have not shot,raped or dispersed any blacck australians.
and nor will i be made to feel gulty for them .the past is the past ...GET OVER IT AND JOIN THE REST OF US PEASANTS,
whom raise our kids ,pay taxes ,taxes that the likes of you throw at the basket case welfare addicted,feel SORRY for our selves p!ssant class that YOU AND YOURS HAVE ENABLED


indegenious............ means born to the land ,that includes me ,my wife and our kids



haha nice.

Dimwittio would have bought the land off if the Brits didn't come lol or any other race exploring here.
 
NIce to see the SS Tone offering up the best defence of the riot/flag burning that I have seen.
 
ssstone said:
i do know you snake and it aint funny ,apoligists like your self have alot to answer for ,did little kevvy saying sorry change anything? nup and will the likes of you and your pims sipping ,fairfax mates actully do any thing to improve the abo rigines lot.... nup
you just continue to divide under the guise of *smile* knows what
i and or any of my family have not shot,raped or dispersed any blacck australians.
and nor will i be made to feel gulty for them .the past is the past ...GET OVER IT AND JOIN THE REST OF US PEASANTS,
whom raise our kids ,pay taxes ,taxes that the likes of you throw at the basket case welfare addicted,feel SORRY for our selves p!ssant class that YOU AND YOURS HAVE ENABLED


indegenious............ means born to the land ,that includes me ,my wife and our kids

2 points.

First, it gets nobody nowhere to put a negative label on everyone who hold a view different to yours. Pims sipper or whatever. Its symptomatic of avoidance or fear. You're not gunna stop doing it, but please be aware of what you're doing.

Secondly, the whole 'the past is irrelevant' thing is, I hate to use this word but it does apply here, delusional. The past matters. Come on ssstone, have a serious think, If someone crossed my pop or my dad, I'm suspicious of them and their offspring. If someone hurt one of my kids, I'm never gunna forget it, not next week, not in 50 years time. I'm never gunna forget Adelaide dobbing in Jake King. Carlton 82 still hurts. The past matters, the good stuff, the bad stuff. I'know some would wish it didn't and I understand why, but there it is.

The 'basket case' part is just disappointing and a little depressing.
 
tigersnake said:
Secondly, the whole 'the past is irrelevant' thing is, I hate to use this word but it does apply here, delusional. The past matters. Come on ssstone, have a serious think, If someone crossed my pop or my dad, I'm suspicious of them and their offspring. If someone hurt one of my kids, I'm never gunna forget it, not next week, not in 50 years time. I'm never gunna forget Adelaide dobbing in Jake King. Carlton 82 still hurts. The past matters, the good stuff, the bad stuff. I'know some would wish it didn't and I understand why, but there it is.

The past isn't irrelevant but there's not a lot of use dwelling on it and punishing people who weren't involved in any way. Having such bitterness for hundreds of years, to the point of bringing down your own life and that of your children, is futile.

I can't think of an answer. Non-aboriginals can't all leave the country and I doubt most aboriginals would want to live a nomadic lifestyle in the outback without any creature comforts anyway.

I'd love to see the eyesore of a tent city, and the obnoxious behaviour of those involved, become a thing of the past. I don't know what they are trying to achieve but I don't see it helping the cause in the slightest way.
 
The burning and spitting on the flag is a sign of disrespect, not for the flag but the country and culture the flag represents. So, with the Big Day Out in Melbourne today, just check the news and see what some of the people who attend think of our country and culture.

When I was little we used to sing God Save the Queen every Monday morning at school. meh!

But the thing was that I was at a small school and two flag monitors had to hold the flag at the front of the assembly. The key instruction was that the flag was not to touch the ground. At Cubs the same thing was stressed.

We've come a long way........ :-X
 
rosy23 said:
The past isn't irrelevant but there's not a lot of use dwelling on it and punishing people who weren't involved in any way. Having such bitterness for hundreds of years, to the point of bringing down your own life and that of your children, is futile.

I can't think of an answer. Non-aboriginals can't all leave the country and I doubt most aboriginals would want to live a nomadic lifestyle in the outback without any creature comforts anyway.

I'd love to see the eyesore of a tent city, and the obnoxious behaviour of those involved, become a thing of the past. I don't know what they are trying to achieve but I don't see it helping the cause in the slightest way.

Its not about dwelling on the past, its not about punishing anyone, Its definitely not about nomads or us leaving, its about knowing what happened, and UNDERSTANDING why it happened and the UNDERSTANDING the effects of what happened. Its about understanding. Isn't that what we all want? To be understood? Like I said, if Aussies were willing to do that, we could fix the problems together in good faith and all move on. It shouldn't be that hard, but it is.

As for the hundreds of years of bitterness, its easy to say when you're on the winning dominant side. And Aborigines were officially second class citizens until 40 years ago, there were still a lot of state-based discriminatory laws until 30 years ago. And I'd argue a lot of Australians still believe Aborigines are inferior.
 
tigersnake said:
Its not about dwelling on the past, its not about punishing anyone, Its definitely not about nomads or us leaving, its about knowing what happened, and UNDERSTANDING why it happened and the UNDERSTANDING the effects of what happened. Its about understanding. Isn't that what we all want? To be understood? Like I said, if Aussies were willing to do that, we could fix the problems together in good faith and all move on. It shouldn't be that hard, but it is.

As for the hundreds of years of bitterness, its easy to say when you're on the winning dominant side. And Aborigines were officially second class citizens until 40 years ago, there were still a lot of state-based discriminatory laws until 30 years ago. And I'd argue a lot of Australians still believe Aborigines are inferior.

I'd argue that some Aborigines still feel they are inferior and take pride in playing the victim card too. Things have changed a lot in the last few decades, as you reference. That doesn't mean the past didn't happen, or that things can't continue to improve, but to me the protesters in Canberra aren't helping the cause at all. Can you suggest any positives from having such poorly behaved people squatting in such squalid conditions and harassing innocent people? How would that help promote understanding? What exactly are they trying to achieve. As far as I'm concerned far more would be gained by moving on and trying to work together. Plenty of Aboriginal people are outstanding role models to all Australians. Plenty are happy, everyday citizens. They share the same history as the tent city rabble but their attitude and self-belief and respect for others are a far better way to go. Yes there's a lot of work to be done but effort has to be made to build bridges from all sides. Burning flags won't help the cause in the least little way.
 
If you argue some black people some Aborigines feel inferior, your on pretty safe ground. I'd argue a lot of black people feel inferior. Why is that?

You're really fixated on the Canberra protest. Why? You're right it was counterproductive. But as I said, I have some understanding of the perspective of the people involved for reasons I've already stated. As for the tent embassy, like it or not, having a busted-arse camp in the middle of a nice shiny city serves the purpose of reminding people that all is not well. Things are different outback. It makes some people think 'what is going on here?' who would otherwise be oblivious to the situation.

Where was that Native Title thread rosy? this is all deja vu all over again.
 
tigersnake said:
If you argue some black people some Aborigines feel inferior, your on pretty safe ground. I'd argue a lot of black people feel inferior. Why is that?

It's up to individual attitudes. Some might like to feed their grudge by camping out in an eyesore of a humpy and some might work hard, be happy, achieve great things and be a positive role model. I'd say those who wallowed in self pity rather than live a positive productive life would be more likely to be viewed as inferior than those who sue different methods to get their story across.

tigersnake said:
You're really fixated on the Canberra protest. Why?

Because this thread is about the Australian Flag and they are the group responsible for desecrating it in Canberra..based on the articles I've read.

tigersnake said:
As for the tent embassy, like it or not, having a busted-arse camp in the middle of a nice shiny city serves the purpose of reminding people that all is not well. Things are different outback. It makes some people think 'what is going on here?' who would otherwise be oblivious to the situation.

Yes it is visible proof that all is not well. It's an absolute disgrace. It's an eyesore and many involved are rude and obnoxious towards others. I can think of far better ways to get a message across. Nothing will take back the evils of the past but this kind of thing won't do anything for a better, united future either. If you behave like you're inferior and take it out on others you'll probably have people thinking you are inferior.

Who does more for the Aboriginal cause..a young Cathy Freeman or a young girl burning a flag?

tigersnake said:
Where was that Native Title thread rosy? this is all deja vu all over again.

I don't recall a thread called Native Title. The search engine is your friend. :)
 
Type native title in the search engine and then look for posts by tigersnake. Several posts and threads of yours show up but there isn't a one called Native Title. Maybe you'll find the thread you refer to there under a different name.
 
Found this old post FWIW:

As I’ve already said I’m over this debate. I’m sure people are getting sick of me saying it then I come back in.

Obviously nothing I say is going to change anyones mind. If people really want to believe that blacks get given too much, are hopeless and get just as much opportunity as anyone else, it seems they are gunna keep believing that regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

I’ll tell you a story though. You can look it up on google to check any wrong facts. It’s a good story, and a good illustration of what blacks have been up against until fairly recently.

Elly Bennett was born in Cherbourg south Qld in 1924, a pretty poor aboriginal community that was an old mission then, on the outskirts of Murgon. (Chris Sandow and Steve Renouf are from there for NRL fans). He started off as a labourer, cane cutting and other farm work, and used to box in the boxing tents when they came to town and bet on himself to make extra dough. He was good so one of the shows put him on, he was quickly identified as being too good for the tents and began to fight as a pro.

He became Aus bantamweight champ from 1948-51, then he moved to featherweight and held the Aus championship from 1951-1954. His pro record ended up being 59 fights for 40 knockout wins. His fights included Cecil Shoemaker of the US who was ranked No. 1 at the time, Elly knocked him out. Bennett tried to fight the Mexican Ortiz for the WC but he refused the fight.

Later, a fight was set up with Vic Trowell of South Africa who had beaten Ortiz and held the title. Trowell pulled out at the last minute after discovering Bennett was aboriginal. Bennett also fought Jimmy Carruthers but lost to the champ on points.

Elly Bennetts earning were estimated at 12,000 pounds, roughly $3-4 million in today’s money. He never saw a cent. Under Queensland law at the time, laws that weren’t repealed until the late 1960s, blacks were’nt entitled to receive any income they earned. Didn’t matter if you were a pro boxer, can cutter, nurse, whatever. It all went to the local ‘Aboriginal protector’, who was usually the police sergeant, and could pay a discretionary amount of 'pocket money' to the black worker. The rest of the money, in theory, was paid into the Aboriginal Welfare fund, This was a state government fund that was meant to benefit aborigines in general statewide. The reality of this policy was that corrupt protectors usually creamed some off the top, blacks often couldn’t read or write, then because blacks had no political power, the Queensland government just dipped into the Welfare fund whenever they were short of cash, to fix roads or whatever, eroding it to virtually nothing.

Elly Bennett died broke in Bundaberg in 1981.

You might ask ‘what has this got to do with us now, in this day and age?’ Well I’d say a lot. The way Australian culture, society and economics has evolved means that white people, our ancestors, have always been entitled to earn as much as we can, and keep that money and spend it how we see fit. Usually, in the case of my family at least, this means that people earn money, feed, clothe and educate their kids. Each generation gets it a bit better. For example my great grandparent were dirt poor, my grandparents were just poor, my parents were'nt poor. Each generation is better educated, more confident and has higher expectations.

These basic rights tha we take for granted were denied to black people. If fact the reverse is true. State governments’ policies, not just Queensland, actively put up obstacles to deny black people the opportunity to improve things for their families. Like paying them at lower rates, then not letting them keep the lower pay they did earn. So in basic economic terms, aboriginal people are 100 years behind us. Those discriminatory policies are now gone, but we’ve had a massive head start. I'll say it again, a massive head start.

To say history doesn’t matter and everyone has the same opportunities just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Does James Packer’s kids have the same opportunities as Elly Bennett’s grandchildren?
 
tigersnake said:
If people really want to believe that blacks get given too much, are hopeless and get just as much opportunity as anyone else, it seems they are gunna keep believing that regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

Not sure why you make that statement. Has anyone suggested so on this thread?

tigersnake said:
To say history doesn’t matter and everyone has the same opportunities just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Has anyone said that? You've questioned my posts in regard to Canberra's tent slum protesters. I feel the same about them as I do the rent a crowd protesters for any cause. I don't think they represent the majority view and I don't think they do their cause any good at all.

tigersnake said:
You might ask ‘what has this got to do with us now, in this day and age?’ Well I’d say a lot. The way Australian culture, society and economics has evolved means that white people, our ancestors, have always been entitled to earn as much as we can, and keep that money and spend it how we see fit. Usually, in the case of my family at least, this means that people earn money, feed, clothe and educate their kids. Each generation gets it a bit better. For example my great grandparent were dirt poor, my grandparents were just poor, my parents were'nt poor. Each generation is better educated, more confident and has higher expectations.

These basic rights tha we take for granted were denied to black people. If fact the reverse is true. State governments’ policies, not just Queensland, actively put up obstacles to deny black people the opportunity to improve things for their families. Like paying them at lower rates, then not letting them keep the lower pay they did earn. So in basic economic terms, aboriginal people are 100 years behind us. Those discriminatory policies are now gone, but we’ve had a massive head start. I'll say it again, a massive head start.

Has anyone for one second suggested history doesn't matter? Yes we've had a massive head start and yes opportunities WERE denied. Thankfully although that won't change for those affected then it opens the door for a better future. Some seem to want to wallow in the past and others think it would be more beneficial to try and heal the wrongs. My issues on this thread have been, as you pointed out, the behaviour of those in Canberra's tent city. I don't think they are helping improve things, or open the door of opportunity for future generations, in the slightest.

The girl who burned the flag said she really wanted to do it the same as her Father had done. It would be good if her father gave her a metaphorical kick up the backside and encouraged her to get an education and have a happy productive life rather than continue to hit out at others. Her life, and that of future generations, would be better for it.
 
that was weird, my little green light was on but I couldn't post.

We seem to be talking at crossed purposes here rosy, which happens a lot on race issues. People have implied history doesn't matter by saying things like 'get over it' or 'just move on' etc. Thing is people say those things without having much knowledge of history and no understanding of it. This post is a small attempt at a history lesson, probably a fairly futile attempt. People who are genuinely sympathetic to indigenous issues will appreciate it, people who aren't will put up a wall, ignore it, see it as a personal attack, whatever.

You say 'some seem to want to wallow in the past and some want to heal the wrongs' as if they are opposed or mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. Nobody wants to live in what is a horrific past. But in order to heal the wrongs, people have to face up to the past. It hasn't happened, its not happening, and there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest it ever will happen.