Coronavirus

[mrposhman]

Common sense finally. Going to virtually impossible to police & will only create wide divisions & civil unrest in society.

Agree and posted similar in another thread. The whole premise of a vaccine passport is false. It may be prevalent if as a global society we were looking to eradicate Covid but the vaccine doesn't do that. It may still spread it but it reduces symptoms.

All we create by bringing in vaccine passport is as you say division, civil unrest and this wouldn't even be focused on the government, a lot of the unrest would be on the businesses that are trying to implement the passport scheme in fear that they may lose their licences.

 

[Redford]

What I am really struggling to understand why many vaccinated people are fearful of those who aren't.

It’s not fear ToOba. It’s just common sense stemming from:

1. There are severely immunocompromised people in the community that can’t receive a vaccine that we still need to protect;

2. Young children, for which there is no recommended vaccine, that we still need to protect and;

3. We can’t have such a quantity of unvaccinated people that they totally drain our health system and prevent the broader services that we still need to supply to everyone. Emergency operations, cancer and heart treatments in hospitals, and on and on. We can’t have these people totally f’ing up our health system.

Any pressure that limits the above is a good thing - even if vax passports in general day to day application are somewhat impractical.

 

[Tigers of Old]

It’s not fear ToOba. It’s just common sense stemming from:

1. There are severely immunocompromised people in the community that can’t receive a vaccine that we still need to protect;

2. Young children, for which there is no recommended vaccine, that we still need to protect and;

3. We can’t have such a quantity of unvaccinated people that they totally drain our health system and prevent the broader services that we still need to supply to everyone. Emergency operations, cancer and heart treatments in hospitals, and on and on. We can’t have these people totally f’ing up our health system.

Any pressure that limits the above is a good thing - even if vax passports in general day to day application are somewhat impractical.

All good points Red & I think it highlights the complexities.

However to counter.

1. I obviously feel very sorry for those most vulnerable. Do we all live our lives differently as a result because of a few? Or should they be the ones protecting themselves?

2. Yes sadly there's no vax for kids yet (hopefully soon).
However currently at least they're not as badly effected as those older people (although long covid is an unknown factor).
Remember kids are also contributing to the virus spreading. How do covid passports affect them as a result?..

3. Agree on this point but I'm not sure having vaccine passports will change peoples minds to get vaxed or or just create further unrest & chaos.

Challenging situation with no exact answer.

 

[Ridley]

True but where do you stop with that? Do you stop people smoking & drinking because they fill hospitals too with associated illnesses?
For the life of me I don't know why people don't want to get vaccinated but at some point it's got to come down to personal choice about your own health.

The difference is Oldie that the taxes paid to governments on grog and smokes are enormous and contribute to the funding of the health system. 30 years ago a packet of durries cost $2; I haven't smoked for 20 years but I believe the price is close to $50 a pack. The vast majority of that increase is due to tax hikes.

 

[Tigers of Old]

The difference is Oldie that the taxes paid to governments on grog and smokes are enormous and contribute to the funding of the health system. 30 years ago a packet of durries cost $2; I haven't smoked for 20 years but I believe the price is close to $50 a pack. The vast majority of that increase is due to tax hikes.

True. Who knows? It may get to a point in the future where covid related illnesses won't be covered by medicare or insurance if you're not vaccinated due to the costs involved.

 

[Ridley]

I suppose this ties in with a parallel that I saw someone mention on here weeks ago. People resistant to the vaccination are obviously going against scientific medical advice, which is foolish. But such a phenomenon is not uncommon. People drink to excess or smoke all of the time. Neither of these things are illegal, but certainly those things go against scientific medical advice. And by partaking in those actions, one would argue that they aren't really effecting anyone but themselves. But similar to the anti-vaxx example you give, we can argue undoubtedly that these people generate long term pressure on the health system.

Yeah but you're not going to catch a deadly virus sitting in the same room as a heavy smoker or drinker for 30 minutes. Plus much of the tax they pay for the vice goes to funding the health system.

An anti-vaxxer contributes nothing additional to the health system for his or her ignorant and selfish stance. Well I guess they do contribute one additional thing; stress.

 

[Ridley]

True. Who knows? It may get to a point in the future where covid related illnesses won't be covered by medicare or insurance if you're not vaccinated due to the costs involved.

That would be a reasonable position IMO.

 

[Redford]

All good points Red & I think it highlights the complexities.

However to counter.

1. I obviously feel very sorry for those most vulnerable. Do we all live our lives differently as a result because of a few? Or should they be the ones protecting themselves?

2. Yes sadly there's no vax for kids yet (hopefully soon).
However currently at least they're not as badly effected as those older people (although long covid is an unknown factor).
Remember kids are also contributing to the virus spreading. How do covid passports affect them as a result?..

3. Agree on this point but I'm not sure having vaccine passports will change peoples minds to get vaxed or or just create further unrest & chaos.

Challenging situation with no exact answer.

The passports won’t work on a “retail” level - impossible. But they will work on a corporatised or governmental level where there’s the structure, resources and technology to apply it eg flying, travelling overseas, large employers mandating vaccination etc etc

There’s no real countering, as such, for a quantity of unvaccinated people that is too large. The ramifications of having too many unvaccinated people will be devastating to ALL Australians. If we have to create some societal division initially to achieve it, then so be it. Just like Joe Biden, people are losing patience.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Yeah but you're not going to catch a deadly virus sitting in the same room as a heavy smoker or drinker for 30 minutes. Plus much of the tax they pay for the vice goes to funding the health system.

An anti-vaxxer contributes nothing additional to the health system for his or her ignorant and selfish stance. Well I guess they do contribute one additional thing; stress.

But if you're vaccinated, they aren't really hurting you, spreading the virus to you. Isn't that exactly why you are vaccinated? So that point is relatively mute.

On your other point though, I think for consistency's sake, I could definitely see merit in paying a higher Medicare levy or medical insurance for not being vaccinated. Given the higher risk that they get the virus to a more serious degree and require higher level medical care. That's basic actuarial principles that all insurance products work to.

 

[Ridley]

But if you're vaccinated, they aren't really hurting you, spreading the virus to you. Isn't that exactly why you are vaccinated? So that point is relatively mute.

On your other point though, I think for consistency's sake, I could definitely see merit in paying a higher Medicare levy or medical insurance for not being vaccinated. Given the higher risk that they get the virus to a more serious degree and require higher level medical care. That's basic actuarial principles that all insurance products work to.

Yes but you can still contract the virus if vaccinated; but it obviously reduces the risk of transmission and serious illness and death which is why everyone should do it. The more people vaccinated the less chance of transmission etc. It's the attitude of those who won't get vaccinated that *smile* me and as for all I care they reap what they sow. Don't *smile* whinge if you can't do stuff because you unreasonably refused vaccination.

Agree on the Medicare levy position.

 

[Redford]

Yes but you can still contract the virus if vaccinated; but it obviously reduces the risk of transmission and serious illness and death which is why everyone should do it. The more people vaccinated the less chance of transmission etc. It's the attitude of those who won't get vaccinated that *smile* me and as for all I care they reap what they sow. Don't *smile* whinge if you can't do stuff because you unreasonably refused vaccination.

Agree on the Medicare levy position.

Plus the impact on the health system they place. And the argument that when it comes to them “making their own bed and lying in it” so why should a vaccinated person worry, well, that’s true to some extent, but that bed is also needed for the person diagnosed with a brain tumour.

 

[Ian4]

Really interesting in here is seeing the adverse reactions on the 7 day moving average between 15th August and 23rd August. They both go in inverse patterns which would appear to be a clear indication of when NSW were taking vaccines from VIC directly. These weren't "new" doses from Poland, but essentially doses that should have been given to VIC appear to have been given to NSW. No other reason to explain the inverse reactions for that week or so.

great pickup. wow.

I agree Al. Once we get to a predetermined Vac rate services should open and the unvaccinated should not be ‘locked out’. Personally l find the lack of outrage over this issue staggering ,

could not disagree more. lock em out and put pressure on them to get vaccinated.

As for the “lack of outrage,” where the hell have you been hiding?? You must be reading in different social media circles then me. Anti-vaxxers are everywhere posting their selfish, overproportionate outrage. Try ABC news on Facebook. They have to turn off comments for literally every vaccine related post.

I just don't understand why people wouldn't want to get vaccinated. Unless there is a genuine and undeniable medical reason then what is the excuse? Whatever happened to the "greater good". I can't see how anyone can deny that vaccination is the only way to deal with this virus; to be able to live our best possible lives. Do we want to be locked in our houses for the rest of our lives?

the whole "me me" culture has taken over society over the past 20 years. there is no caring for their fellow man. only "what is in it for me?"

What I am really struggling to understand why many vaccinated people are fearful of those who aren't.

I'm not fearful of them i just despise their selfishness

 

[pete and tys]

I suppose this ties in with a parallel that I saw someone mention on here weeks ago. People resistant to the vaccination are obviously going against scientific medical advice, which is foolish. But such a phenomenon is not uncommon. People drink to excess or smoke all of the time. Neither of these things are illegal, but certainly those things go against scientific medical advice. And by partaking in those actions, one would argue that they aren't really effecting anyone but themselves. But similar to the anti-vaxx example you give, we can argue undoubtedly that these people generate long term pressure on the health system.

There is a difference.
Smokers, drinkers, drug users etc...ACCEPT that scientific advice and evidence is correct, but make a choice based on pleasure, addiction etc. They accept that what they are doing is wrong and harmful and not sensible.
Anti vaxers ...REJECT scientific evidence, argue against it illogically, hang their hats on pseudo science which is sexy but hollow and reject common sense arguement. Go figure.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Plus the impact on the health system they place. And the argument that when it comes to them “making their own bed and lying in it” so why should a vaccinated person worry, well, that’s true to some extent, but that bed is also needed for the person diagnosed with a brain tumour.

But like I said, the same goes for smoking and excessive drinking. Both selfish decisions that have the same effect on this front. But we don't make these activities illegal. They are discouraged by putting high taxation on the products. And in theory (whether governments actually do or not is debatable) those extra taxes go to the health system. Hence why for consistency's sake I could see merit in higher medicare levies or medical insurance premiums for the unvaccinated.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

When lockdowns end, and when Australia opens up again, a measure of caution would be well advised.

After having vaccinated 80% of their population 12 and over in June, Israel lifted restrictions, they are now having daily cases of 16,000.

Why Israel's latest COVID outbreak holds important lessons for Australia

With the majority of its adult population fully vaccinated, Israel lifted virtually all COVID-19 restrictions and life returned to normal. But now it has one of the highest infection rates in the world. What happened?

www.abc.net.au

Israel were early with the vaccinations, so people who got jabbed in January were susceptible by July. Same will happen here, but we might get a relative breather for three months or so without new infections getting out of control before vaccine efficacy across the board drops significantly.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

There is a difference.
Smokers, drinkers, drug users etc...ACCEPT that scientific advice and evidence is correct, but make a choice based on pleasure, addiction etc. They accept that what they are doing is wrong and harmful and not sensible.
Anti vaxers ...REJECT scientific advice, argue against it illogically, hang their hats on pseudo science which is sexy but hollow and reject common sense arguement. Go figure.

Not always. The reason I see the parallels is the amount of times I have heard the tired old anecdote, "My 86YO grandfather has smoked a pack a day for 70 years and he's still living".

And in reference to your point on people acknowledging the extra risk and still doing it for pleasure. Well that perhaps makes them even more selfish than a delusional anti-vaxxer.

 

[Brodders17]

Those arguing against restrictions for those who arent vaccinated keep stating if you are vaccinated you catch catch so no need to worry. this is wrong. wrong. wrong.
if you are vaccinated you are a lot less likely to catch the virus, and spread the virus. if you are vaccinated and come into contact with someone who ahs the virus who is unvaccinated you are more likely to then get infected than if you have contact with a positive case who is vaccinated. unless you dispute the science that is fact.
if you are vaccinated you are less likely to then infect others, but you can. again fact. so sitting at the footy, or being in a restaurant in contact with an unvaccinated person increases the risk of you catching and then spreading the virus. to your kids, to your elderly parents, to your ill friend.

from a selfish POV that is why I am i in favour of restrictions to those who refuse to be vaccinated.

from a wider view, if people who have not been vaccinated dont have restrictions, the virus will continue to spread faster and more widely. this will put the vulnerable at risk, and will put greater strain on the health system. this has the potential to impact everyone.
as numbers increase we will also have to choose whether to continue to try and contact trace cases. if we do we will end up with more and more people in isolation. if we dont we will end up with faster and more unknown spread.

 

[Redford]

But like I said, the same goes for smoking and excessive drinking. Both selfish decisions that have the same effect on this front. But we don't make these activities illegal. They are discouraged by putting high taxation on the products. And in theory (whether governments actually do or not is debatable) those extra taxes go to the health system. Hence why for consistency's sake I could see merit in higher medicare levies or medical insurance premiums for the unvaccinated.

The comparison of smoking and drinking v non vaccination doesn’t work for me. At all.

Smoking and drinking and the effects of it are a slow burn across our societies that we have managed to account for in our health systems for over 100 years plus now. Covid is an en masse instantaneous illness that short circuits our health system completely. You also don’t make someone else sick by drinking alcohol or eating fatty foods or whatever. Remaining unvaccinated you DO have that potential to make someone else sick.

There’s a reason why Biden and other democratic governments around the world are pressuring and heading towards a mandated position on vaccinations.

As for insurance premiums I raised that months ago as an inevitable outcome. But not everyone is insured.

 

[Baloo]

Real example of vax passport/restrictions working.

Bloke in my building is a mad anti-covid vaxxer. Got to the point people avoided him because it's all he wanted to talk about. He was also a fitness freak and the main user of the building's gym.

They've reopened the gym after 6 months of closure about a week ago. Big sign say "Vaccinated residents only". Saw him coming out of the gym this morning and he saw my quizzical look. He whipped out his phone to show he's had his first jab then walked away muttering something about it all being *smile*.

Made my day.

 

[caesar]

True but where do you stop with that? Do you stop people smoking & drinking because they fill hospitals too with associated illnesses?
For the life of me I don't know why people don't want to get vaccinated but at some point it's got to come down to personal choice about your own health.

Well rules were brought in long ago for no smoking in work places, indoor and outdoor dining etc to protect other peoples health. Drinking it is only your own liver you're damaging so you reap what you sow.
I for one are happy once everyone has had the chance to vaccinate that certain liberties and restrictions will apply. People can *smile* about it but it is happening around the world and it will happen here.