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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Atheism
- Thread starter Disco08
- Start date
In life everything is a matter of perspective, and I guess it is easy to set a few staw men up to cast doubt on reasonable assertions. So much of this I won't worry about. I think that western nations being free and democratic is a direct result of their cultures being immersed in Christianity for the past 1500 years. Can prove it, but I think it is a reasonable inference.
This, like much on this discussion forum submitted by unbelievers about the Bible, is a total misrepresentation of the facts by taking the Bible verses out of CONTEXT. Slavery was ubiquitous in both OT and NT - God simply give instructions on how to live with it. Doesn't mean He approved of it! Later in history, when the time was right, He organised, through His people that it be abolished. If you doubt that do some googling on a chap by the name of Wilberforce.
Utter rubbish. I KNOW missionaries, they are hard-working people who sacrificed a lot to bring the gospel to all sorts of difficult situations, at personal cost. At the same time they often brought financial, medical and teaching expertise. A whole generation of Aboriginal people learnt to read and write (and hence became a political force) because of the efforts of missionaries.
Christians STILL do this and often access free food and distibute it to people in need. This is hard work and takes serious committment. Yes the Gospel is on offer, this will also be beneficial to people if the obey it. So whats the problem, its better than DOING NOTHING.
ROT. I went to, and have taught in a variety of religious schools. Its 100% about educating the students. The education students recieve is at least the equal of what they receive through the public system. In the past, prior to public education, it was the ONLY way for students from poorer families to receive an education.
What you are saying here is 100% media brainwashing. It is very rare for the Church to say much about MOST science discoveries. When they do say something there is usually a ethical dimension. In fact many scientists have been in the past and are Christians. Science was invented in a Christian society and is based on the Christian idea that the universe is a rational place which is governed by laws set in place by a creator. As for the 'creation science' spending 'millions' on their research :hihi, the people with their hands very firmly around the purse strings of tax dollars are evolutionists.
As for pre-determined outcomes, if anyone operates like this they are not doing science. Making drawing creationist conclusions form data, however, is no more controversial than making evolutionary ones (or at least should not be).
I'm not referring to church/state separation here (note, in Australia our Head of state is also the Head of the Anglican Church BTW)- just numerous politicans who try to apply their Christian faith to this profession, and in so doing bring a Christian perspective to parliament. Personally I DEFINITELY DONT want Australia to become some fundamentalist tyranny (like Saudi Arabia), and thankfully our political system and constitution prevent this happening. As far as Israel is concerned I am a strong supporter, and believe this nation is a true democracy - I believe that is has bent over backwards to give the Arabs a voice & self determination, only to havr this repeated thrown in their faces.
What on Earth are you talking about re South America???
Point 8 abuses do happen in church (they have happened to me), never stopped me reading the Bible to check out whether what is said is true or not.
Tiger74 said:
This, like much on this discussion forum submitted by unbelievers about the Bible, is a total misrepresentation of the facts by taking the Bible verses out of CONTEXT. Slavery was ubiquitous in both OT and NT - God simply give instructions on how to live with it. Doesn't mean He approved of it! Later in history, when the time was right, He organised, through His people that it be abolished. If you doubt that do some googling on a chap by the name of Wilberforce.
Tiger74 said:
Utter rubbish. I KNOW missionaries, they are hard-working people who sacrificed a lot to bring the gospel to all sorts of difficult situations, at personal cost. At the same time they often brought financial, medical and teaching expertise. A whole generation of Aboriginal people learnt to read and write (and hence became a political force) because of the efforts of missionaries.
Tiger74 said:
Christians STILL do this and often access free food and distibute it to people in need. This is hard work and takes serious committment. Yes the Gospel is on offer, this will also be beneficial to people if the obey it. So whats the problem, its better than DOING NOTHING.
Tiger74 said:
ROT. I went to, and have taught in a variety of religious schools. Its 100% about educating the students. The education students recieve is at least the equal of what they receive through the public system. In the past, prior to public education, it was the ONLY way for students from poorer families to receive an education.
Tiger74 said:
What you are saying here is 100% media brainwashing. It is very rare for the Church to say much about MOST science discoveries. When they do say something there is usually a ethical dimension. In fact many scientists have been in the past and are Christians. Science was invented in a Christian society and is based on the Christian idea that the universe is a rational place which is governed by laws set in place by a creator. As for the 'creation science' spending 'millions' on their research :hihi, the people with their hands very firmly around the purse strings of tax dollars are evolutionists.
As for pre-determined outcomes, if anyone operates like this they are not doing science. Making drawing creationist conclusions form data, however, is no more controversial than making evolutionary ones (or at least should not be).
Tiger74 said:
I'm not referring to church/state separation here (note, in Australia our Head of state is also the Head of the Anglican Church BTW)- just numerous politicans who try to apply their Christian faith to this profession, and in so doing bring a Christian perspective to parliament. Personally I DEFINITELY DONT want Australia to become some fundamentalist tyranny (like Saudi Arabia), and thankfully our political system and constitution prevent this happening. As far as Israel is concerned I am a strong supporter, and believe this nation is a true democracy - I believe that is has bent over backwards to give the Arabs a voice & self determination, only to havr this repeated thrown in their faces.
What on Earth are you talking about re South America???
Point 7 you are making for the third time. Obviously you think it is wrong for people to wish to spread their faith - why?Tiger74 said:
Point 8 abuses do happen in church (they have happened to me), never stopped me reading the Bible to check out whether what is said is true or not.
Djevv,
Even if Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) has done good for human culture in the past, what does this have to do with the truth of its central tenets?
I would be the first to admit that religions do offer some good things to human culture, including an organising principle that encourages fellowship and in some case altruistic behaviour. However, wouldn't an ideal 'religion' retain these principles while discarding the damaging, unsubstantiated supernatural claims? My problem isn't with religion per se but the damage that adherence to dogma, in this case supernatural dogma, can wreak on human society.
Many of Tiger74's points with regard to recruitment are dead on, but that is how religions have always propagated themselves.
To say that religion is only bad is to disregard its history. It certainly has a chequered past, but it is responsible for the mass organisation of whole societies, which has led to some benefits.
As for your comment about evolutionists vs creationists: your approach still belies an incorrect scientific approach. You are using a preconceived idea and looking to fit the evidence to it. You can't look at the geological, fossil, biological, ecological and molecular evidence and say....that looks like creation. You can only follow a dogma that supports creation and then try, in many cases in a intellectually dishonest manner (not directly referring to you there), to mould the evidence to fit it.
Even if Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) has done good for human culture in the past, what does this have to do with the truth of its central tenets?
I would be the first to admit that religions do offer some good things to human culture, including an organising principle that encourages fellowship and in some case altruistic behaviour. However, wouldn't an ideal 'religion' retain these principles while discarding the damaging, unsubstantiated supernatural claims? My problem isn't with religion per se but the damage that adherence to dogma, in this case supernatural dogma, can wreak on human society.
Many of Tiger74's points with regard to recruitment are dead on, but that is how religions have always propagated themselves.
To say that religion is only bad is to disregard its history. It certainly has a chequered past, but it is responsible for the mass organisation of whole societies, which has led to some benefits.
As for your comment about evolutionists vs creationists: your approach still belies an incorrect scientific approach. You are using a preconceived idea and looking to fit the evidence to it. You can't look at the geological, fossil, biological, ecological and molecular evidence and say....that looks like creation. You can only follow a dogma that supports creation and then try, in many cases in a intellectually dishonest manner (not directly referring to you there), to mould the evidence to fit it.
Djevv said:
As I mentioned above to Jay, Im not saying Christians are evil or they have done no good, I just cannot swallow the story that Christians have done nearly all the good in the world and athiests most of the evil. Pell was singing this song again this week, and its something I cannot tolerate. All peoples are equally prepared to do good and evil, and if history shows us anything faith just determines what outfits you wear or book you carry when you perform these acts, not the actual act itself.
Djevv said:
If he doesn't approve of it, why did he tolerate it? A God should not be concerned with the social structures of the day, and if something is evil it should be stopped.
Djevv said:
This is a matter of perspective. You think getting someone to adopt Jesus saves them, I believe getting clean water to their village does even more.
Djevv said:
Agree its better than nothing, but again its not something for nothing. There are strings attached, so the charitable works should be remembered to be a recruitment tool as well as an act for the greater good. Not saying the act is bad, just saying there are deeper motives behind it other than just 100% wanting to feed the poor (for example).
Djevv said:
The majority of schools I have had contact with (which is mainly on the catholic side to be fair) have religious studies as mandatory. If you refuse to do it, you are out. Also some schools (mainly in the states) have handled issues like abortion and evolution in classes in a very biased manner, while trying to tell the students they are teaching an impartial truth. Personally I think if you go to a christian school you have to accept you are going to have their values ingrained on your kids, so I have no issue with this. But as with the charity work, lets not pretend teaching the next generations the word of God is not a key part of churches being active in education.
Djevv said:
So the Church DIDN'T kill people who said the Earth was round, and that it revolved around the Sun?
Djevv said:
Actually the Queen's status is one of the reasons I became a republican
Israel has hardly been fair to the locals, they were forced into refugee camps and its Syria's and Jordan's fault because they won't take them in? They lived in Israel but were pushed aside to make space for the newcomers. Hardly democratic. Absolutely agree on the Saudis, and the sooner the House of Saud comes under pressure the better. It was good to see the pressure they came under with the recent rape case (although they came around in the end kicking and screaming).As for South America, established nations with their own technologies and cultures and economies were operating until the Spanish arrived. Unfortunately they had the misfortune of not believing in Jesus and sitting on a pile of gold and silver. This resulted in one of the biggest genocides in human history, as whole nations were eliminated, cultures destroyed, and independance squashed, as the people were either "saved" or killed.
Djevv said:
No issue with recruitment, just call it what it is (recruitment), and don't say its doing greater good for the world. This is a matter of faith, and is debatable unlike running a soup kitchen or irrigation and teaching programs.
Djevv said:
Agreed, and sorry to hear it mate. Point is not all Christians are pure and wonderous, and the Bible is not able to purify some taints. As mentioned above, not saying Christians are any worse than the rest, just that they are not any better.
Nice to see one church reviewing its financial priorities, but I must admit I did reconsider a life of serving God when I did the math ($500k per annum for a life of praying ain't bad!).
Church leaders facing the chop
Jonathan Petre, London
December 28, 2007
MORE than a fifth of the Church of England's bishops could face the axe under proposals being drawn up by its leaders.
Secret documents discovered by The Daily Telegraph reveal that the Church Commissioners - the financial wing of the Church of England - are considering reducing traditional funding for the hierarchy.
The proposals come in the wake of criticism that the church is top-heavy and the bishops too costly, while congregations are shrinking and parishes are strapped for cash.
But the proposals are likely to anger some bishops, who feel they are already overstretched.
All of the Church's 113 bishops are currently paid for centrally by the commissioners, last year to the tune of nearly £25 million ($57 million).
Under the proposals being discussed by the archbishops and other leaders, the commissioners would reduce their support to no more than two bishops per diocese. According to confidential church papers, any diocese with more than two bishops - nearly half have between three and six - would have to fund the extra posts themselves or scrap them.
Under another option, the commissioners, who also manage the church's historic investments, would fund more than two bishops only if certain "objective" criteria were fulfilled.
The proposals are being considered by the House of Bishops' Standing Committee, chaired by the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, as part of a wider review of the role of bishops.
The church is already setting up a new national commission to recommend the scrapping or merging of dioceses.
Church spokesmen confirmed that "various options" were being considered, but said that no final decisions had yet been made.
Some clerics believe that a quarter of the church's suffragans, or assistant bishops, should be shed.
They want more money for missionary initiatives to attract people back to church, such as Fresh Expressions, the Archbishop of Canterbury's scheme to promote alternative worship.
Critics of the hierarchy point out that in 1900 there were 57 bishops - 31 diocesan and 26 suffragan - and about 24,000 clergy. While there are now 113 bishops - 44 diocesan and 69 suffragan - and only 9000 full-time parish clergy, supplemented by a similar number of part-time clergy and licensed lay people.
TELEGRAPH
Church leaders facing the chop
Jonathan Petre, London
December 28, 2007
MORE than a fifth of the Church of England's bishops could face the axe under proposals being drawn up by its leaders.
Secret documents discovered by The Daily Telegraph reveal that the Church Commissioners - the financial wing of the Church of England - are considering reducing traditional funding for the hierarchy.
The proposals come in the wake of criticism that the church is top-heavy and the bishops too costly, while congregations are shrinking and parishes are strapped for cash.
But the proposals are likely to anger some bishops, who feel they are already overstretched.
All of the Church's 113 bishops are currently paid for centrally by the commissioners, last year to the tune of nearly £25 million ($57 million).
Under the proposals being discussed by the archbishops and other leaders, the commissioners would reduce their support to no more than two bishops per diocese. According to confidential church papers, any diocese with more than two bishops - nearly half have between three and six - would have to fund the extra posts themselves or scrap them.
Under another option, the commissioners, who also manage the church's historic investments, would fund more than two bishops only if certain "objective" criteria were fulfilled.
The proposals are being considered by the House of Bishops' Standing Committee, chaired by the Archbishop of York, Dr John Sentamu, as part of a wider review of the role of bishops.
The church is already setting up a new national commission to recommend the scrapping or merging of dioceses.
Church spokesmen confirmed that "various options" were being considered, but said that no final decisions had yet been made.
Some clerics believe that a quarter of the church's suffragans, or assistant bishops, should be shed.
They want more money for missionary initiatives to attract people back to church, such as Fresh Expressions, the Archbishop of Canterbury's scheme to promote alternative worship.
Critics of the hierarchy point out that in 1900 there were 57 bishops - 31 diocesan and 26 suffragan - and about 24,000 clergy. While there are now 113 bishops - 44 diocesan and 69 suffragan - and only 9000 full-time parish clergy, supplemented by a similar number of part-time clergy and licensed lay people.
TELEGRAPH
Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honour at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely. Mark 12: 38
evo said:
No good Evo, you should do it Homer Simpson style.
Quote a completely benign and irrelevant reference from the Bible (i.e. Mark 16:32 (no idea what this is btw)), and when people come back and say "and John walked into Bethany with his goat??", you then go "yeah...think about it!".
Homer:
Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me and for the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is ok, please give me absolutely no sign. (pause) Ok, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. (pause) Thy will be done.
Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me and for the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is ok, please give me absolutely no sign. (pause) Ok, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. (pause) Thy will be done.
Tiger74 said:
According to James, faith = works. In other words, if you have faith, you ought to be doing something good. Thats why I was, and am able to give plenty of Christians doing good things that have benefitted society. Not saying no-one else does any good though, but for everyone of those I'll show you 100 Christians!
Tiger74 said:
It was stopped, by Christians.
Tiger74 said:
Funny you should say that. I met a Sth African Christian missionary/educator recently, who told me how he showed a group of African tribesmen how to purify water during a church service. Subsequent to his visit, the area experienced a drought with little clean water available, many died, but not those who recieved his presentation!
Tiger74 said:
Well, if you believe the unsaved are going to hell, then what alterative do you have other than try to get them to respond?
Tiger74 said:
Must say I prefer education with values as opposed to no values. Remember parents (like myself) have to PAY to send their children to these schools. Not all of them are Christians either. They must see something worthwhile in them.
Tiger74 said:
Not as far as I know. If I remember rightly, Galileo suffered house arrest. Certainly they opposed this idea, but eventually saw the error of their ways (not long afterward). At the time it was a radical idea and a huge reorientation of how man saw himself - its not surprising that the idea caused a stir.
Tiger74 said:
Israel is rather paranoid about the protection of it's citizens, understandably, if you ask me, as various Arab groups would love nothing more than to exterminate the lot of them. I'm sure Israel would welcome Arabs who want to live in peace. Israel is a modern, western democracy. Look, I understand your concerns, and undoubtedly the Israelis have been over zealous on occasions, but its not an easy situation.
Tiger74 said:
You can't blame the church for what a bunch of Spanish freebooters did surely? You can be seriously suggesting the Church organised this whole episode? I suspect also that disease may have caused many of the deaths.
Tiger74 said:
I think you have to realise that the 'Church' doesn't always give an accurate representation of Christ, unfortunately. But this does not invalidate Jesus message.
Djevv said:
Don't you see how offensive this kind of view is for non-Christians? That only 1% of good is done by those without a Christian faith?? I'm happy to debate the issues of faith and so forth that make up much of this thread, but if you honestly think non-Christians only do 1% of the good in the world, you must have a pretty low opinion of us.
Tiger74 said:
I think you lot missed my point, which was that good works and service is an intrinsic part of a serious Christian Faith. I wasn't saying that only 1% of good is done by non-Christians :hihi. How do you measure goodness in % terms BTW? Sorry if the comment offended tho :-[.
Look fellas, my whole background is non-Christian, as well as nearly all my extended family (not my immediate family). Plenty of really decent and intelligent people in that lot as well. I still think that they'd be better off with Jesus, nevertheless!
Djevv said:
I came up with the 1% from your comment about showing 100 Christians doing good for one of everyone else.
Happy to accept your position on us being better off under Jesus, but I think I speak for a few of us when we don't accept being told we are less likely to be "good" if we don't accept him. I have no issue going to Hell for my believes (if I am to be damned for being a non-believer), but this is a seperate issue to one of people doing good for others.
Tiger74 said:
I think there is a negative media mythology about Christianity that needs to broken. You know the type of thing: the pedophile priest, the hypocrite pew-warmer, the starchy moralist, the loony tongue talker, the sappy loser etc. In my own experience of Church, Christians do HEAPS more than people realise. In my own community I could and have given numerous examples. This is really what I was talking of, Christians do a lot, rather than Non-Christians do nothing. The reason I make this point is to show that faith in Jesus is a very positive thing, both for the individual and society.
I certainly believe non-Christians can and do do a lot of good, but would be empowered to do more with Jesus!
The other thing about Hell is crazy talk. If you belive in Hell - really believe it is true - then you will do everything in your power to avoid it!! Not only that you will make every effort to make sure others don't go either!
