Atheism

[Six Pack]

I was reading in today's paper about the lack of action of christian churches in Europe during the holocaust. This is nothing new, but worth remembering. They stood by and did nothing as their anti-semitism was very deeply rooted.

How does that fit the grand plan?

 

[Six Pack]

No "good Christian" would ever have killed this child as it is in direct conflict with the word of God.

god told abrahmam to kill his son. and old Abe was gonna do it!

 

[jayfox]

What about when they were killed at birth, or locked in asylums, or travelling in freak shows?

What part of the grand plan did they play then?

Killed at birth go to heaven.

Locked in asylums is too vague to comment on. How did they get there? what did they do? Did they kill people? etc.

Travelling in freak shows is a choice I would imagine? Again, too vague to comment on.

 

[Six Pack]

disabled people were often locked up in asylums. not their choice.

 

[jayfox]

I was reading in today's paper about the lack of action of christian churches in Europe during the holocaust. This is nothing new, but worth remembering. They stood by and did nothing as their anti-semitism was very deeply rooted.

How does that fit the grand plan?

It doesn't. Any church not sticking up for the directives of God is not doing His will. Pure and simple. They should have stood up.

 

[jayfox]

god told abrahmam to kill his son. and old Abe was gonna do it!

That was a test of faith but God didn't make him go through with it. God rewarded Abraham greatly because of his faith. Please tell the full story and in context.

 

[jayfox]

disabled people were often locked up in asylums. not their choice.

A very poor choice made by people not following the will of God. If these disabled people were unable to get access to the word of God or mentally unable to understand it then I assume that they would be going to heaven at death just as children who aren't old enough to make their decision do.

 

[Six Pack]

You are clutching at straws, Jay, but good onya for having a go.

 

[Disco08]

If God made our choices for us would we not all be perfect? Please answer that.

God doesn't necessarily have to be making the choices for everyone. The point is though that if God knows what you are going to choose then you have no choice in the matter. The only way you can rationalise this is by saying God does it in a way no one can understand.

To keep it simple, the choice is still yours it's just that God knows which choice you will make. That is not contradictory.

Of course it's contradictory. If the result is determined (which it has to be in order for anyone to know what it is) then you are not making a choice, you are just arriving at your predetermined destination.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

It is not an apt description because witnessing the resurrection of a human IS convincing evidence of something that we currently don't understand, whereas theist assertions are not.

Can you not see that the security that your faith provides you with, could potentially delude you into believing things that there is no evidence for? How do you avoid this?

 

[jayfox]

You are clutching at straws, Jay, but good onya for having a go.

I'm not clutching at straws at all. These are my firms beliefs and this thread has done nothing to dampen my resolve. It has actually increased my knowledge and strengthened my faith.

 

[Six Pack]

i guess that you don't realise how unconvincingly you come across, but yr faith covers for that i suppose.

 

[jayfox]

It is not an apt description because witnessing the resurrection of a human IS convincing evidence of something that we currently don't understand, whereas theist assertions are not.

Can you not see that the security that your faith provides you with, could potentially delude you into believing things that there is no evidence for? How do you avoid this?

Apart from the Bible which I clearly believe to be the true word of God, I have the evidence of a personal relationship with Him. Whilst this may not meet your scientific expectations it comes with an absolute assuredness that He is with me every day. You may think, in fact I'm sure you already do, that I am deluding myself as I do not have enough present, physical evidence to satisfy your scientific obligations but I guess that is where a little faith comes into it and once shown that faith is duly rewarded with a true awareness of Him.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Apart from the Bible which I clearly believe to be the true word of God, I have the evidence of a personal relationship with Him. Whilst this may not meet your scientific expectations it comes with an absolute assuredness that He is with me every day. You may think, in fact I'm sure you already do, that I am deluding myself as I do not have enough present, physical evidence to satisfy your scientific obligations but I guess that is where a little faith comes into it and once shown that faith is duly rewarded with a true awareness of Him.

Lets see how many times we can mention 'scientific evidence' .

So you clearly admit that it really comes down to faith....of course I would argue that the vagaries of the human mind open you up to self delusion, but I can accept that you are entitled to believe whatever you want. What irks me is that you then extrapolate this faith-based belief to dispute that for which there is clear evidence for or against. You also think this argument has merit.

Believe what you want, but don't think a faith-based belief will be taken as seriously as an evidence-based belief when it comes to discerning the nature of the real world.

 

[t-rob]

Lets see how many times we can mention 'scientific evidence' .

So you clearly admit that it really comes down to faith....of course I would argue that the vagaries of the human mind open you up to self delusion, but I can accept that you are entitled to believe whatever you want. What irks me is that you then extrapolate this faith-based belief to dispute that for which there is clear evidence for or against. You also think this argument has merit.

Believe what you want, but don't think a faith-based belief will be taken as seriously as an evidence-based belief when it comes to discerning the nature of the real world.

Haven't we had this discusion before.

The problem with "evidence-based belief" is that scientists keep finding new evidence and keep changing their beliefs.

Faith in the existence of an ultimate power has for millenium been the cornerstone for most of the population. Forget particular religions and the whole Jesus Christ debate and especially forget the nonsense argument about the validity of the Bible.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

The problem with "evidence-based belief" is that scientists keep finding new evidence and keep changing their beliefs.

The problem with this is?

Different hypotheses and theories have different levels of confidence ascribed to them, based on the evidence. When was the last time that scientists fundamentally changed a major theory due to the unearthing of new evidence? It is a very rare occurrence because to achieve the status of 'theory' their must be a lot of evidence to support it. Any new model must take all of this pre-existing evidence into account.

Would you rather believe religious dogma that has been clung to, despite the evidence?

Which method do you think will produce a more accurate worldview?

It sounds like you think it is more important to maintain a consistent and unchanging worldview, than it is to be able to change your mind as you learn more about the world. Interesting perspective.

 

[jayfox]

God doesn't necessarily have to be making the choices for everyone. The point is though that if God knows what you are going to choose then you have no choice in the matter.

You tell me this isn't a contradiction!

Of course it's contradictory. If the result is determined (which it has to be in order for anyone to know what it is) then you are not making a choice, you are just arriving at your predetermined destination.

See this is where you are putting human limitations on a spiritual being of unspeakable power. Even if the result is determined, as you say it has to be in order for anyone to know what it is, then it is determined by you, in the future. But God is not held by time and space as we are, so He can see the future, without affecting your ability to decide it for yourself.

 

[jayfox]

i guess that you don't realise how unconvincingly you come across, but yr faith covers for that i suppose.

It's a shame that you feel that way but not really surprising. If nothing else comes of this thread but a strengthening of my faith and an increase in my knowledge of God, then it will have been more than worth it. And it really is a pleasure to be able to discuss such important issues with you guys.

 

[jayfox]

Lets see how many times we can mention 'scientific evidence' .

So you clearly admit that it really comes down to faith....of course I would argue that the vagaries of the human mind open you up to self delusion, but I can accept that you are entitled to believe whatever you want. What irks me is that you then extrapolate this faith-based belief to dispute that for which there is clear evidence for or against. You also think this argument has merit.

Believe what you want, but don't think a faith-based belief will be taken as seriously as an evidence-based belief when it comes to discerning the nature of the real world.

I didn't mention "scientific evidence" once. I don't get what point you are making?

Of course the Christian 'faith' comes down to "faith". I have always maintained this. But there are many things that have happened on this Earth as a result of faith that science simply cannot explain.
If you don't want to take it seriously then that is your prerogative.

 

[t-rob]

If you have the time and want to listen to a more eloquent Christian than I...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGJcjuRJydI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY51gfGEcho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tadENf9NEhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIRDl8cVLvg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC7nq5ZsVvc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbtbe_OZhFg