Atheism

[jayfox]

Jay, as you know i have dipped in and out of this debate from time to time, but one constant is that when the Christian posters are confronted with stuff that is pretty hard to deal with or untangle they come out with a sort of magical 'cos God can do anything' sort of statement.

And that doesn't cut it for the Atheists.

For example, the Jonah story. However illogical and irrational that story is you can argue it with the power of God. I'm afraid that's a major problem for us Atheists. You tend to explain the unexplainable and it just sounds fanciful.

It really doesn't matter whether or not miracles cut it for the atheists. The fact is that an all powerful God is capable of breaking the rules of what is normal on this Earth. Jesus walking on water is another example. We can't claim to know how God did everything He did in the Bible because He has powers that we will never be able to comprehend. Yes this takes some faith, but if you believe that God is all an all powerful being who is not held to the laws of this Earth like we are, then you can believe that He is capable of what we would think to be impossible.

 

[Disco08]

Do you believe Jesus uses his power to perform miracles to cure cancer and other diseases for people who pray for his help Jay?

 

[jayfox]

Sorry Jay, you're just not making any sense. You're second sentence is a complete contradiction of itself. If God knows what I'm going to decide before I make my choice then I clearly have no choice at all. My destiny is already set because God knows what it is.

I don't think I can explain it any clearer and I don't think at all that it was a contradiction. I don't agree that your destiny is "set" as I believe it is your choice of which way you go. God knows which way you will go but He still leaves that decision to you to make. If God "set" all of our destinies then we would all be perfect Christians, wouldn't we? Our destinies are 'known' but not "set".

 

[Six Pack]

It really doesn't matter whether or not miracles cut it for the atheists. The fact is that an all powerful God is capable of breaking the rules of what is normal on this Earth. Jesus walking on water is another example. We can't claim to know how God did everything He did in the Bible because He has powers that we will never be able to comprehend. Yes this takes some faith, but if you believe that God is all an all powerful being who is not held to the laws of this Earth like we are, then you can believe that He is capable of what we would think to be impossible.

it's convenient then that all these so called miracles happened in the mists of time and not in the current day where they could have been recorded accurately.

 

[jayfox]

Do you believe Jesus uses his power to perform miracles to cure cancer and other diseases for people who pray for his help Jay?

I absolutely believe that God answers prayer in miraculous ways to save people. The Bible has many stories of these types of encounters. I myself have experienced my friends mother be given months to live with a brain tumor, and we prayed for her and the tumor has miraculously disappeared and she is in complete remission and back to full health. I can't explain how that happened but it did.

 

[Disco08]

Our destinies are 'known' but not "set".

Impossible.

I absolutely believe that God answers prayer in miraculous ways to save people. The Bible has many stories of these types of encounters. I myself have experienced my friends mother be given months to live with a brain tumor, and we prayed for her and the tumor has miraculously disappeared and she is in complete remission and back to full health. I can't explain how that happened but it did.

Why do you think that Jesus never answers the prayers of amputees?

 

[Six Pack]

That's a ticklish one!

 

[jayfox]

it's convenient then that all these so called miracles happened in the mists of time and not in the current day where they could have been recorded accurately.

Miracles do still happen today. Read my previous post. Perhaps they are a bit different to the Jonah one but amazing things do still happen in this world. I would also think that you could go down to your local Koorong bookstore and quite easily find a book that would tell stories of modern day miracles as well.

 

[jayfox]

Didnt Jesus crack it with the money lenders? The sin of wrath or something?

Yeah, they were trading in the temple and disrespecting God so he turned their tables over and kicked them out. Fair enough too. The Bible says that God is "slow to anger" not free from anger.

 

[jayfox]

Impossible.

Not with God.

Why do you think that Jesus never answers the prayers of amputees?

Why on Earth would you say "never"? Have you personally spoken to every amputee, especially the Christian ones? God always answers our prayers it is just not always with a 'yes'. Sometimes we have to go through trials to strengthen our faith so that we may be found worthy. It is easy to believe when everything in life is easy but in tough times our trust in God gets tested and our true amount of faith revealed.

 

[Disco08]

Not with God.

Trumped again.

Why on Earth would you say "never"?

Have you ever heard of an amputee regrowing a lost limb, or a person born without all their limbs suddenly growing the one(s) their missing? Ever?

 

[Six Pack]

What about that kid the other day who was born with four arms and four legs? In the past good christians would have murdered the child at birth. These days doctors might operate, or the child might be left grossly deformed.

How does god sort that one out? Why would a loving god allow a child to be born like that?

Answer: no such thing as god.

 

[Disco08]

That child is just being tested.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Not with God.

You can't trump this one with the 'God card'.

If something is know ahead of time, then it can't be changed. The concept of an omniscient, omnipotent god and free will in his creations in internally contradictory, by definition.

I would still like to hear your response to my previous posts on how you error check your feelings on these matters.

 

[jayfox]

Trumped again.

Have you ever heard of an amputee regrowing a lost limb, or a person born without all their limbs suddenly growing the one(s) their missing? Ever?

Okay, I misunderstood what you were saying with that. No, I have never heard of it but did you ever consider that perhaps those people were born like that as part of God's greater plan. Perhaps those people have a greater ability to relate to others who have hardships in their lives, deformities or disabilities. Perhaps having a disability like that allows them, or should I say encourages them, to perform roles in the community that they otherwise would not? I am talking about the counseling, aiding, encouragement or tips on how to cope for people with similar types of difficulties as them.

 

[Six Pack]

Okay, I misunderstood what you were saying with that. No, I have never heard of it but did you ever consider that perhaps those people were born like that as part of God's greater plan. Perhaps those people have a greater ability to relate to others who have hardships in their lives, deformities or disabilities. Perhaps having a disability like that allows them, or should I say encourages them, to perform roles in the community that they otherwise would not? I am talking about the counseling, aiding, encouragement or tips on how to cope for people with similar types of difficulties as them.

What about when they were killed at birth, or locked in asylums, or travelling in freak shows?

What part of the grand plan did they play then?

 

[jayfox]

Trumped again.

I know that you are being sarcastic but I'm not sure why? I have always said that everything is possible with God but it is you guys who try to put human limitations on him. Just because our minds don't understand something does not necessarily make it non-existent or not factual.

 

[Tigers of Old]

As for the wars comment, I don't really see how those two fit together?

Because what you are basically saying is that Christianity it is intolerant of other faiths and those that have no faith by suggesting that they are somehow impure and can expect to go to hell for an afterlife of torture and pain.

It's intimidating and offensive to say it's my way or the highway(hell).
Intolerance leads to conflict hence the war comment.

Ideally IMO we should all aspire to just be good people and tolerant of each other regardless of religious preferences.

More often than not religion is the fundamental cause of war and Christianity is as much to blame as any.

 

[jayfox]

What about that kid the other day who was born with four arms and four legs? In the past good christians would have murdered the child at birth. These days doctors might operate, or the child might be left grossly deformed.

How does god sort that one out? Why would a loving god allow a child to be born like that?

Answer: no such thing as god.

No "good Christian" would ever have killed this child as it is in direct conflict with the word of God. I can't claim to know the reasons behind everything that God allows but you can be sure that He has them.

If there is no such thing as God then we may as well not go on. You cannot like the direction that this world is heading in surely?

 

[jayfox]

You can't trump this one with the 'God card'.

If something is know ahead of time, then it can't be changed. The concept of an omniscient, omnipotent god and free will in his creations in internally contradictory, by definition.

I would still like to hear your response to my previous posts on how you error check your feelings on these matters.

I agreed that God knows the outcome before it occurs, but He still allows you to make your own way to that outcome. To keep it simple, the choice is still yours it's just that God knows which choice you will make. That is not contradictory. If God made our choices for us would we not all be perfect? Please answer that.

Please ask the questions again in one post and I will reply. I'm fighting to keep up with all the questions and get my work done as it is.