Atheism

[jayfox]

Well it must be true then. :

There are hundreds of prophecies contained in the Bible, many regarding the end times. That was only one small example. For you to make a comment like this shows that you have little or no knowledge or understanding of these prophecies.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

There are hundreds of prophecies contained in the Bible, many regarding the end times. That was only one small example. For you to make a comment like this shows that you have little or no knowledge or understanding of these prophecies.

I am very much aware of what you consider prophecies....the problem is that these prophecies are often vague (like the one I was responding to) or the authors of the New Testament were aware of the Old Testament prophecies when they wrote their respective books, making the fulfilment of those prophecies dubious at best.

I am happy to see the evidence suggesting otherwise.

 

[jayfox]

Quite the contrary Jay. I don't believe in your god so these hypotheses are meaningless to me. I just try and articulate them as though they are true because that seems to be the way it's done.

But that doesn't really respond to my point, that if you do assume God is real, then you make Him take responsibility for the bad things in this world, even though it is against his instruction, rather than those perpetuating the bad behaviour. I just don't think that is right. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and admit that they have done wrong and that it is no-one's fault but their own. (And further to that they probably should admit that such behaviour is in direct opposition to God's instructions.)

 

[jayfox]

I am very much aware of what you consider prophecies....the problem is that these prophecies are often vague (like the one I was responding to) or the authors of the New Testament were aware of the Old Testament prophecies when they wrote their respective books, making the fulfilment of those prophecies dubious at best.

I am happy to see the evidence suggesting otherwise.

Regardless of the evidence I put forward, I would doubt that you would ever believe because you have it set in your mind that He does not exist and that the Bible story is not real. You will argue otherwise, of course, but I would suggest that just about anything apart from the return of Christ himself would struggle to convince you. There is a story in the bible about this type of situation -

Luke 16:19-31 (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In [HADES] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Regardless of the evidence I put forward, I would doubt that you would ever believe because you have it set in your mind that He does not exist and that the Bible story is not real. You will argue otherwise, of course, but I would suggest that just about anything apart from the return of Christ himself would struggle to convince you. There is a story in the bible about this type of situation -

Luke 16:19-31 (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In [HADES] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

You seem to have passed judgement without trying me out. Put forward your evidence and give me a chance to be persuaded. Everything you have put forward in the past can't really be taken as evidence can it? If you take it as such then you are more credulous than me. How do you know that you aren't being deluded?

As for your passage....I haven't seen anyone rise from the dead (but that would be rather persuasive - much more persuasive then the vague and contradictory stories of the bible). I take it you perceive yourself as Lazarus and I am that rich fella in purple - nice ;D.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Most Buddhists are aware of Jesus and christianity.

Exactly but Jay is basically saying that they are are going to hell if they don't embrace his god.

I've done a search but 'Living without the law' seems to be a pretty grey area.

Those that live "without the law", i.e. without hearing the truth about Jesus, cannot be judged by the law.

In other words, they will be judged on how they lived their lives, not on the fact that they had never heard the name of Jesus.

Which is it Jayfox?
Is it hearing Jesus's name or failing to hear the truth?

 

[jayfox]

I am very much aware of what you consider prophecies....the problem is that these prophecies are often vague (like the one I was responding to) or the authors of the New Testament were aware of the Old Testament prophecies when they wrote their respective books, making the fulfilment of those prophecies dubious at best.

I am happy to see the evidence suggesting otherwise.

Just on this, these prophecies are not vague. They are designed, like much of the Bible, to be understood with via careful study. God didn't want to just give us all of the answers that easily. He wants us to really delve into His word, and to study it deeply, in order to fully understand it.

 

[Tiger74]

Just on this, these prophecies are not vague. They are designed, like much of the Bible, to be understood with via careful study. God didn't want to just give us all of the answers that easily. He wants us to really delve into His word, and to study it deeply, in order to fully understand it.

I still don't get how the future can be preordained if we have free will.

 

[jayfox]

You seem to have passed judgement without trying me out. Put forward your evidence and give me a chance to be persuaded. Everything you have put forward in the past can't really be taken as evidence can it? If you take it as such then you are more credulous than me. How do you know that you aren't being deluded?

As for your passage....I haven't seen anyone rise from the dead (but that would be rather persuasive - much more persuasive then the vague and contradictory stories of the bible). I take it you perceive yourself as Lazarus and I am that rich fella in purple - nice ;D.

I know that I am not being deluded via the perfect peace of God. An assuredness that only someone with a relationship with Him can understand. Djevv and PPT would know what I am talking about.

I, in no way, consider myself to be the Lazarus figure in this story. I just think it is an apt description that no matter what some people are presented with they will not believe.

 

[jayfox]

Exactly but Jay is basically saying that they are are going to hell if they don't embrace his god.

I've done a search but 'Living without the law' seems to be a pretty grey area.

Which is it Jayfox?
Is it hearing Jesus's name or failing to hear the truth?

I don't think you understand those quotes. They both back each other up.
Quote 1 - A person who has lived without knowledge of Jesus cannot be sent to Hell for not accepting Jesus as his saviour. How could he. he had never heard of Him?

Quote 2 - They wil be judged on how they lived their lives, not on whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not.

They are making the same point.

 

[jayfox]

I still don't get how the future can be preordained if we have free will.

Because whilst we can choose whichever way we want to, God knows which way we will end up before we even decide. A preacher that I know once said that Jesus sacrificed himself before mankind was even created because He knew that He was going to have to in order to save us from an eternity without God. In other words, God created us, knowing that we would fall short of His glory, but loved us so much that He was still willing to sacrifice Himself for us from before we were even created.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I know that I am not being deluded via the perfect peace of God. An assuredness that only someone with a relationship with Him can understand. Djevv and PPT would know what I am talking about.

I, in no way, consider myself to be the Lazarus figure in this story. I just think it is an apt description that no matter what some people are presented with they will not believe.

It is not an apt description because witnessing the resurrection of a human IS convincing evidence of something that we currently don't understand, whereas theist assertions are not.

Can you not see that the security that your faith provides you with, could potentially delude you into believing things that there is no evidence for? How do you avoid this?

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Because whilst we can choose whichever way we want to, God knows which way we will end up before we even decide. A preacher that I know once said that Jesus sacrificed himself before mankind was even created because He knew that He was going to have to in order to save us from an eternity without God. In other words, God created us, knowing that we would fall short of His glory, but loved us so much that He was still willing to sacrifice Himself for us from before we were even created.

No offence Jay....but that is nonsense.

We have free will, but god knows what we are going to do?

This is the paradox of omniscience and omnipotence....you can't have both, because if you know everything that will ever happen...then you don't have the power to change it .

 

[Disco08]

Agreed. It's unpossible.

 

[Disco08]

But that doesn't really respond to my point, that if you do assume God is real, then you make Him take responsibility for the bad things in this world, even though it is against his instruction, rather than those perpetuating the bad behaviour.

That's right. He made us, knew exactly what would happen before he made us and decided to go for it anyway. Who else can you possibly blame.

The cruelest people on Earth don't choose to be born the way they are. Their brains simply dictate to them how they will act. There is no free will at all in the hand you are dealt and to me this is the basis of free will on an eternal level.

 

[Tigers of Old]

I don't think you understand those quotes. They both back each other up.
Quote 1 - A person who has lived without knowledge of Jesus cannot be sent to Hell for not accepting Jesus as his saviour. How could he. he had never heard of Him?

Quote 2 - They wil be judged on how they lived their lives, not on whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not.

They are making the same point.

OK.

Back to the Buddhists.
If they are aware of Christianity yet were born into a society that practices Buddhism are they going to hell or not?
They still live their lives as very good people and are aware of your God however instead choose Buddha.

Yet you are saying because of this they are going to hell anyway.

Am I right in saying that or not?

 

[jayfox]

That's right. He made us, knew exactly what would happen before he made us and decided to go for it anyway. Who else can you possibly blame.

The cruelest people on Earth don't choose to be born the way they are. Their brains simply dictate to them how they will act. There is no free will at all in the hand you are dealt and to me this is the basis of free will on an eternal level.

So it is not the rapist, murderers or pedophiles fault. Their brains dictated to them how they will act. I think this is rubbish and is exactly what I am talking about of not accepting responsibility for your own actions.

 

[jayfox]

No offence Jay....but that is nonsense.

We have free will, but god knows what we are going to do?

This is the paradox of omniscience and omnipotence....you can't have both, because if you know everything that will ever happen...then you don't have the power to change it .

Completely disagree. Knowing something is going to happen does not mean those involved don't have free will. I know Richmond won't make the finals next year but I am letting them battle it out!

 

[jayfox]

OK.

Back to the Buddhists.
If they are aware of Christianity yet were born into a society that practices Buddhism are they going to hell or not?
They still live their lives as very good people and are aware of your God however instead choose Buddha.

Yet you are saying because of this they are going to hell anyway.

Am I right in saying that or not?

Truth is, in your Buddhist example, I am not sure. I am glad that I am not judging these people and that God has that responsibility. The good thing is that He is a perfect judge so these people will be judged fairly, just as we all are.

 

[Disco08]

So it is not the rapist, murderers or pedophiles fault. Their brains dictated to them how they will act. I think this is rubbish and is exactly what I am talking about of not accepting responsibility for your own actions.

It's their fault if you don't assume a creator created them specifically the way they are and knew exactly how their life (and everyone else's) would turn out before he did it.