America, will they ever learn? (Gun Control Debate)

[Rosy]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

They say the killer had mild autism which could be a reason as to the usual "what was he thinking?" question that's always hard to answer.

The article says that he had Asperger's which is a form of, but different to, autism. There's no claim the condition was in any way relevant to his actions. From what I've read there is no connection with Asperger's and violence.

Making assumptions based on a mental condition is not only futile it's also doing a great disservice to those who live with it and have little support and understanding already.

 

[TigerForce]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

The article says that he had Asperger's which is a form of, but different to, autism. There's no claim the condition was in any way relevant to his actions. From what I've read there is no connection with Asperger's and violence.

Making assumptions based on a mental condition is not only futile it's also doing a great disservice to those who live with it and have little support and understanding already.

I agree. My nephew's 13 and gets a bit too animated for no reason at times which makes it difficult for my sister to keep monitoring him frequently. He broke her nose once. The older he gets, the harder it gets.

 

[Jason King]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I had a friend at school who was diagnosed with autism. She appeared aloof and as though she just wanted to be alone but fact is she couldn't hold conversations and was very uncomfortable with other people. She was one of the gentlest people I've ever known. Why are we discussing autism in relation to this awful situation?

Domestic involving guns in Tassie today. A man shot dead his ex and her new partner then turned the gun on himself. The woman's 9yo daughter was there and called police. Sad.

Because a relative of the family said he had a form of autism.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

You could ban guns and these people would use something else like a bomb, knives or poison. The fundamental change needs to be about how we treat people that are different in society, for when people are bullied and outcast they will naturally want some sort of revenge. Why cant we ban bullies!

I think gun control is a start and is accessible and controllable from a governmental perspective. Altering the course of societal behaviours is much harder and much less immediate. Start with gun control I reckon. But in terms of society I think we have been drifting away from community for a long time. People act as individuals with little regard for others. I think this shows up in driving habits, pedestrian habits, unwillingness to intervene in violent situations... You name it, where we congregate we act as though we are individuals rather than a collective. I think this is where we need to start but I have no idea how. There are programs in some schools that talk about "knights" as a bulwark against bullying. I prefer this to an American program with "heroes" because knights work collectively while heroes are often loners.

We can't ban bullies because too often they are only the bully sometimes. When you ask bullies to describe themselves invariably they will tell you they are the victim. It isn't cut and dried. Trying to re-discover our nature as members of a collective, feeling like you are not alone on train carriage with 20 other people would be a start. Bullies can't act in a situation where they can't get access to the weaker ones, or intimidate people and make them feel powerless. As I said I have no idea how you do it, but maybe teaching kids it in primary school will help them to re-ignite community.

 

[Harry]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Agree Harry. People shouldn't try and change this to a discussion about mental health. First and foremost it is about the availability of guns and the weak laws that allow people access to them.

gun groups will fight this, it's massive dollars for manufacturers and gun shops. heard somewhere there are more gun shops in the US than mcdonalds. unfortunately this will boost business for them as the paranoid yanks will go out and arm themselves even more.

 

[Jason King]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I think gun control is a start and is accessible and controllable from a governmental perspective. Altering the course of societal behaviours is much harder and much less immediate. Start with gun control I reckon. But in terms of society I think we have been drifting away from community for a long time. People act as individuals with little regard for others. I think this shows up in driving habits, pedestrian habits, unwillingness to intervene in violent situations... You name it, where we congregate we act as though we are individuals rather than a collective. I think this is where we need to start but I have no idea how. There are programs in some schools that talk about "knights" as a bulwark against bullying. I prefer this to an American program with "heroes" because knights work collectively while heroes are often loners.

We can't ban bullies because too often they are only the bully sometimes. When you ask bullies to describe themselves invariably they will tell you they are the victim. It isn't cut and dried. Trying to re-discover our nature as members of a collective, feeling like you are not alone on train carriage with 20 other people would be a start. Bullies can't act in a situation where they can't get access to the weaker ones, or intimidate people and make them feel powerless. As I said I have no idea how you do it, but maybe teaching kids it in primary school will help them to re-ignite community.

Really good post Knighter

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Really good post Knighter

Thanks mate. I wish I had the answers.

 

[tigersnake]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Back in the day when the constitution was being framed, it was single shot muskets, not automatic, high-powered military grade weapons or 15 bullet handguns.

Yes, and also the country was undeveloped and full of wildlife and game people needed to shoot and eat to survive, there was the frontier wars against Indigenous people, and also they had just won a war against the oppressor with an armed citizen militia. As the need for guns has reduced the guns have gotten bigger and more efficient.

Its sad to say but gun control in the US is like peace in the middle east. It might happen one day, but its hard to envisage in my lifetime.

I heard an American bystander interviewed about gun control, he said 'it'll never happen, Americans care more about their guns than they do about children'.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Yes, and also the country was undeveloped and full of wildlife and game people needed to shoot and eat to survive, there was the frontier wars against Indigenous people, and also they had just won a war against the oppressor with an armed citizen militia. As the need for guns has reduced the guns have gotten bigger and more efficient.

Its sad to say but gun control in the US is like peace in the middle east. It might happen one day, but its hard to envisage in my lifetime.

I heard an American bystander interviewed about gun control, he said 'it'll never happen, Americans care more about their guns than they do about children'.

They make a tired and ridiculous libertarian argument often. Actually last time this discussion got going in the depressingly recent past someone on here was arguing quite strongly the libertarian angle. Hard to fathom for me.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

The article says that he had Asperger's which is a form of, but different to, autism. There's no claim the condition was in any way relevant to his actions. From what I've read there is no connection with Asperger's and violence.

Making assumptions based on a mental condition is not only futile it's also doing a great disservice to those who live with it and have little support and understanding already.

Agree. In lieu of a suicide note, people will naturally focus on the killer's 'weird' personality in their search for answers. In some cases they will draw uninformed conclusions. They're still doing it with Martin Bryant (http://a4.org.au/a4/node/326).

FWIW I have a nephew who was diagnosed with a mild autism spectrum disorder. He's responded well to early intervention treatment.

 

[Ian4]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

on twitter michael moore said something along the lines of - if only the guys mother had a gun, she could have stopped this from happening... oh wait.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Good reading.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/debunking-the-gun-culture_b_2332088.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

 

[Brodders17]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people.
dont ban guns, ban people having guns.

 

[tigersnake]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Good reading.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/debunking-the-gun-culture_b_2332088.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

It is good reading, but the gun lobby has a logic forcefield around it. Hopefully the people on the fence can be pursuaded. The 'they don't ban cars' response is a good one, and chilling to think that cars are far more regulated than guns.

The 'its just as easy to kill someone with a knife' argument is straight out loony.

 

[Brodders17]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

The 'they don't ban cars' response is a good one, and chilling to think that cars are far more regulated than guns.

cars are for the purpose of getting around. guns are for the purpose of killing.
the 'cars kill more people' line is utter rubbish used to cloud the facts.

 

[tigersnake]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

cars are for the purpose of getting around. guns are for the purpose of killing.
the 'cars kill more people' line is utter rubbish used to cloud the facts.

rubbish indeed. The level of debate and flawed logic is akin to the shunning of people suspected to be witches in Africa. The 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' is a doozy. um, people with guns kill people. Take away the guns.....

 

[Brodders17]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Take away the guns.....

or the people.... (which is what happens if you dont take away the guns.)

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

rubbish indeed. The level of debate and flawed logic is akin to the shunning of people suspected to be witches in Africa. The 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' is a doozy. um, people with guns kill people. Take away the guns.....

Agree ts. I thought that when I was young and naive and semi automatics were banned in Victoria. Came to the realization that it is not the case and removing the most dangerous guns from society is the best approach.

 

[Liverpool]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I think per capita, there are more guns in Canada than in the USA, yet per capita the USA have more gun-related deaths.

So is it really the guns that are the problem or the people using them?
The culture?
Their history and patriotism?

I think its a lot more of a complex problem than just blaming guns.

 

[tigersnake]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I think per capita, there are more guns in Canada than in the USA, yet per capita the USA have more gun-related deaths.

So is it really the guns that are the problem or the people using them?
The culture?
Their history and patriotism?

I think its a lot more of a complex problem than just blaming guns.

I agree its more complex, difficult problems always are. Culture definately a factor. I'm not across the details, but I'd venture Canada might have similar levels of gun ownership, but more regulated in terms of what guns you can buy, how you buy them, justification of use etc. The point for me that there needs to be some sensible regulation within the US context. Banning high-powered military issue machine guns, and doing background checks on gun buyers would seem to be a pretty basic measures. Clinton actually brought some measures like this in, quite minimal measures, then Bush repealed them. The right to bear arms isn't the right for lunatics to bear machine guns, anyway, its crazy IMO.