Adem Yze

[MD Jazz]

So, if we get a team of snails?
There's very few perfect players.

I don't want Castagna's and Dow's kicking skills again, but at a pick in the second round, I'm OK with a McIntosh or Rance type kicking skills, as there were other attributes to trade off of. We just can't have 22 of em.

Please. Rance was a very very good kick. You sound like Luke *smile* Darcy, he never ever let go of the Rance brainfades. There was about 2 seasons where Rance made blunders, purely through a lack of composure, not kicking skills. But he was the best FB in the game for about 3 years before any moron in the media noticed. What are Rance type kicking skills anyway?

And what we couldn't give for George's dynamism right now! The best small tall at the Tigers. Give me the ball in George's hands with the critical shot rather than the likes of Shai.

Anyway, this is the Yze thread, he's doing about as well as anyone could with what he has had to work with. The beauty is we are getting games into the kids. FWIW I have been guilty of writing kids off too early (impatience with losing does this) we really need to see them over a the course of a couple of seasons before making definitive calls.

It will be a frustrating few seasons, for me it is about incremental improvement. List management decisions are the most critical ones right now, lets hope we can get the balance right there.

 

[Coburgtiger]

We are, and I did lose faith with Hardwick.

After I gave him seven years.

But I do take your point and it makes for an interesting discussion board.

Good on you, mate.

If it's worth anything, the discussion as probably moderated my point of view, which is as much as we can hope from the internet.

 

[MD Jazz]

Mark Neeld got judged pretty quick. And that was not just the wider public, I think that was led by players/club admin etc.

From the outside it appears Yze has the support of the players and club. Not even the likes of Morris, Kornes, Manure have been able to create some sort of false narrative about internal problems.

Would be great to know how much input into list management Yze has. And what direction he thinks we should take.

 

[Tenacious]

……..

Anyway, this is the Yze thread, he's doing about as well as anyone could with what he has had to work with.

This sums up the whole Yze debate for me

 

[tiger3000]

But at the end of year 3.... After he’s built and crafted a list with player attributes HE wants.

Issue I see is that building a list with a particular skillset is going to take longer than 3 years (and really only 2 recruiting off seasons if its end of season 3) - fairly good number of examples of this, its 5+ if everything goes well.

So do we wait that period of time, in the hope that the end-game strategy is worth it (once list available to execute this specific vision), or do we query the gulf between demands on players vs their inherent skillset as a list. Which then erodes confidence and snowballs into 18th.

This is where I truly believe we shifted between 2016 and 17, instead of trying to force a gameplan that they couldn't execute, a new strategy was developed that harmonised with the list's strengths (and avoided its weaknesses). It was good real world (not theoretical) coaching.

I'm not saying he shouldn't implement his game plan. No-one is winning a premiership just by copying whats been done before. Just that there appears to be too big of a gap between ask and ability at the moment, and maybe it should be scaled back to a mid-ground strategy a bit for next year, and then built year on year as the list develops into the full skilful clearance mode. If not, and keep square pegging the round hole, I can't see it lasting the 5+ years needed, so then it's all wasted time and we start again.

Flexibility while staying on the path. Not easy, we'll see if he can (or is willing to) do it

 

[Sintiger]

Bomber blitz has more depressing threads / throat slitting / not renewing my membership / everyone in charge is useless / almost every player doesn't care / we don't develop properly / we don't recruit properly etc. threads

We need to be better than Essendon supporters. Accountability is fine but when you basically play everyone on your list, have a rotating list on in/out players, have some generational players retire/near retirement and probably many playing with injury people expecting miracles is deluded. A lack of connectivity is not surprising - in a 5 player basketball team just one person changing can unbalance everything - i can't imagine 5 or 6 changing in a 22 player team - it's no wonder teams at the top of the ladder have good runs with injuries, their best players not injured and 14 or 15 players who basically play every game. 2 wins sucks in the short term for sure.

In 2019 we were BOG ordinary when we had injuries in the first third of the season ... does everyone forget? Was Hardwick a dud in first half 2019 and triple premiership coach in the last third of 2019?

View attachment 23615

Yes we need to be calm and let this play out. Recovery is not going to come from panic moves, it is going to come from doing the job step by step. IMO there are too many calls that are based on knee jerk reactions and that is not the way RFC works now.

We have obvious holes in our list and we have had lots of injuries but so much of this is confidence and belief. The connection will come but what I don't want to see is us not trying to take the game on and we are definitely doing that at times, including on Sunday.

 

[Carter]

I’ve said it before but an semi-educated guess would be that Yze is looking to evolve the brutal stoppage and territory game that made Melbourne so unstoppable in 2021.

He needs Clayton Oliver types. They don’t come around very often but I’m hearing there’s a couple in this year’s draft pool.

Taranto would appear to be synergistic with the preferred style and I hope Tim can keep going into his thirties for us.

 

[AngryAnt]

Issue I see is that building a list with a particular skillset is going to take longer than 3 years (and really only 2 recruiting off seasons if its end of season 3) - fairly good number of examples of this, its 5+ if everything goes well.

So do we wait that period of time, in the hope that the end-game strategy is worth it (once list available to execute this specific vision), or do we query the gulf between demands on players vs their inherent skillset as a list. Which then erodes confidence and snowballs into 18th.

This is where I truly believe we shifted between 2016 and 17, instead of trying to force a gameplan that they couldn't execute, a new strategy was developed that harmonised with the list's strengths (and avoided its weaknesses). It was good real world (not theoretical) coaching.

I'm not saying he shouldn't implement his game plan. No-one is winning a premiership just by copying whats been done before. Just that there appears to be too big of a gap between ask and ability at the moment, and maybe it should be scaled back to a mid-ground strategy a bit for next year, and then built year on year as the list develops into the full skilful clearance mode. If not, and keep square pegging the round hole, I can't see it lasting the 5+ years needed, so then it's all wasted time and we start again.

Flexibility while staying on the path. Not easy, we'll see if he can (or is willing to) do it

It did take Hardwick 7 years of course, with a better base of junior players to start with. All you can do is recalibrate your targets each year taking into account development, recruitment, whatever else has happened in the game. Hardwick's teams did show improvement year on year in terms of results and other intangibles like style of play, buy-in to team rules etc, taking out 2016 of course. You could also say the failure to win a final after making the 8 a few times could have been the end of him as well.

Dunno if Yze gets ten years like Hardwick did but we start judging him on results from next year.

 

[TigerFurious]

It did take Hardwick 7 years of course, with a better base of junior players to start with. All you can do is recalibrate your targets each year taking into account development, recruitment, whatever else has happened in the game. Hardwick's teams did show improvement year on year in terms of results and other intangibles like style of play, buy-in to team rules etc, taking out 2016 of course. You could also say the failure to win a final after making the 8 a few times could have been the end of him as well.

Dunno if Yze gets ten years like Hardwick did but we start judging him on results from next year.

Yep, we improved our win loss record every year under Hardwick from 2010-2013, culminating in a 15 win season in 2013 which was the same number of wins we had in 2017 premiership year. 2014 we regressed but still made finals.

As you pointed out, Yze doesn’t have the young talent on the list that Hardwick had even in 2010. It will take at least three years and a lot of draft picks to get that base of talent to build the side around. In the meantime, Yze is likely going to lose a lot of games and this is why I don’t see him surviving long term. New coaches just don’t survive multiple bottom 4 seasons and that’s what we are facing.

Demographics are destiny as they say and poor Yze’s destiny is looking pretty bad right now.

 

[TigerForce]

Yep, we improved our win loss record every year under Hardwick from 2010-2013, culminating in a 15 win season in 2013 which was the same number of wins we had in 2017 premiership year. 2014 we regressed but still made finals.

As you pointed out, Yze doesn’t have the young talent on the list that Hardwick had even in 2010. It will take at least three years and a lot of draft picks to get that base of talent to build the side around. In the meantime, Yze is likely going to lose a lot of games and this is why I don’t see him surviving long term. New coaches just don’t survive multiple bottom 4 seasons and that’s what we are facing.

Demographics are destiny as they say and poor Yze’s destiny is looking pretty bad right now.

It's all myth. Sam Mitchell's looking good. Clarko did well and could do it again. Wallace failed. All depends on when coaches and players click together.

 

[Carter]

It's all myth. Sam Mitchell's looking good. Clarko did well and could do it again. Wallace failed. All depends on when coaches and players click together.

Wisdom

 

[theglove3]

Wisdom

So what are you saying, Tilt?
Tiger Frenzy is a PRE clone of our sage Whisperer, Balmey?

Like it.

 

[daniel30]

If the players are confused that’s on the coaches. Remember what he said during preseason. The coaching group have failed dismally this year.

Are the players capable of executing the game plan ?. Based on general skills and kicking I'll say no.

 

[Smoking Aces]

Multiple bottom 4 finishes wont end his coaching career. The club knows we are in full rebuild mode and will need every bit of 3 years to see improvement.

The only way Yze doesnt see out his contract is if he loses the players along the journey.

 

[Carter]

Multiple bottom 4 finishes wont end his coaching career. The club knows we are in full rebuild mode and will need every bit of 3 years to see improvement.

The only way Yze doesnt see out his contract is if he loses the players along the journey.

100%

Club is fully invested

I mean, we’re talking about a club who dug deep in keeping Hardwick around in the summer of 16.

That took huge balls and they would’ve learnt a ton from it.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

It did take Hardwick 7 years of course, with a better base of junior players to start with. All you can do is recalibrate your targets each year taking into account development, recruitment, whatever else has happened in the game. Hardwick's teams did show improvement year on year in terms of results and other intangibles like style of play, buy-in to team rules etc, taking out 2016 of course. You could also say the failure to win a final after making the 8 a few times could have been the end of him as well.

Dunno if Yze gets ten years like Hardwick did but we start judging him on results from next year.

It took Hardwick a number of years with access to decent draft picks, some very clever trading and risks on unfancied players that paid off. There was no future planning and Hardwick left Yze with a *smile* sandwich. Gale and his team aren’t blameless there, either. The tsunami of injuries, the retirements and the cliff like drop off in form from experienced players have all combined to create a perfect storm and give Yze the worst possible start to his senior coaching career. This will take 4 - 5 drafts of low finishes and high picks before we even start to see the needle shift much.

 

[Carter]

It took Hardwick a number of years with access to decent draft picks, some very clever trading and risks on unfancied players that paid off. There was no future planning and Hardwick left Yze with a *smile* sandwich. Gale and his team aren’t blameless there, either. The tsunami of injuries, the retirements and the cliff like drop off in form from experienced players have all combined to create a perfect storm and give Yze the worst possible start to his senior coaching career. This will take 4 - 5 drafts of low finishes and high picks before we even start to see the needle shift much.

I would argue that the price for dynasties is that you cannot plan for the future.

I certainly don’t blame the regime for going for another flag, even if their assessment of the list in 2022 was wrong.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

I would argue that the price for dynasties is that you cannot plan for the future.

I certainly don’t blame the regime for going for another flag, even if their assessment of the list in 2022 was wrong.

There was some of that, true. But no plans for the forward line post Jack. Not really adequately replacing off field staff. Hardwick could see the crash coming and parachuted to safety, leaving everyone else on the plane.

 

[TigerForce]

I would argue that the price for dynasties is that you cannot plan for the future.

I certainly don’t blame the regime for going for another flag, even if their assessment of the list in 2022 was wrong.

I still think there is always luck involved with risks such as trading in Nank, Prestia and Caddy. Only Prestia was the higher rated expected to play well as a mid. Somehow these 3 really gelled our team leading to a flag.

 

[RoarEmotion]

I would argue that the price for dynasties is that you cannot plan for the future.

I certainly don’t blame the regime for going for another flag, even if their assessment of the list in 2022 was wrong.

I still reckon 2022 was right. Injuries hurt us. Plus some self immolation - multiple games with last 2 minute mega fuxk ups, Prestia’s hammie and the arc.

Easily had a top 4 team and turned it into bottom part of the 8. It was like the reverse of Collingwood last year with a better side.