Acceptance - we are now a middling side | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Acceptance - we are now a middling side

I assume the 'Richmond Man' ethos is written down? Is it a guiding set of principles that players are given when drafted - a bible of sorts?

Or is it just a set of behaviours that players learn as they progress along their journey at the Club, guided by Dimma, Cotch, JR8, Nank, Grimes, etc, etc...?
 
I’m firmly in the culture camp, I think a thriving, selfless culture, started years earlier with the likes of Ivan Maric and his refusal to leave crap on the locker room floor, was integral to our flags.

In fact, I reckon our chaotic play style, which involved skill but not necessarily so, was fuelled by strong culture.

Chris Scott would look at us with genuine bewilderment. We were a club that hadn’t completely bottomed out, had some decent draft picks but a fair few unskilled labourers.

He didn’t understand there was something else driving us, something greater than elite coaching, technical brilliance and tactical innovation.

He still doesn’t get it because Patrick Dangerfield is captain.

Culture. Doesn’t guarantee success, isn’t necessary for success, but I am certain you don’t build dynasties without it.
 
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by what we have put out on the paddock so far this season , yes we are a middling side
but i don't believe we are anchored there
there are flashes of great play which to me suggest the coaches are working on stuff , but can this playing execute it on a regular basis ?

we have the mature imports that will need time to settle (lynch prestia & caddy all took time before playing really good footy in our colours)

Sonsies back and doesnt he look good :) dare I say we have been collectively drooling over this guy for a while
Taylar Young has come out of nowhere and looks promising , yes more improvement , but look how few games he's played
Ryan Sampson is steadily progress and hopes are still high there for a quality tall
Josh Gibcus is wait and see after the surgery , but given the draft pick we used and form last year , hopes are high for a quality defender

Cumberland, MJR, Hugo, Dow , Clarke - I don't believe all will become regular 1st graders but some will and each one is an interesting study in their own right

Banks, Brown , Campbell, Green , Smith have all excited training and vfl watchers at some point but seriously at this stage who knows

and theres still Biggie , Colina & Bradtke

I think that lot will produce enough quality players and roles players to get us above a middling side
 
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by what we have put out on the paddock so far this season , yes we are a middling side
but i don't believe we are anchored there
there are flashes of great play which to me suggest the coaches are working on stuff , but can this playing execute it on a regular basis ?

we have the mature imports that will need time to settle (lynch prestia & caddy all took time before playing really good footy in our colours)

Sonsies back and doesnt he look good :) dare I say we have been collectively drooling over this guy for a while
Taylar Young has come out of nowhere and looks promising , yes more improvement , but look how few games he's played
Ryan Sampson is steadily progress and hopes are still high there for a quality tall
Josh Gibcus is wait and see after the surgery , but given the draft pick we used and form last year , hopes are high for a quality defender

Cumberland, MJR, Hugo, Dow , Clarke - I don't believe all will become regular 1st graders but some will and each one is an interesting study in their own right

Banks, Brown , Campbell, Green , Smith have all excited training and vfl watchers at some point but seriously at this stage who knows

and theres still Biggie , Colina & Bradtke

I think that lot will produce enough quality players and roles players to get us above a middling side

Good post and agree.

The premise of this thread is to observe that the Round 1 team had a limited ceiling and no lasting club benefit.

If there’s a silver lining to all these injuries it’s the chance to inject games into kids.

I’ll take a youngish middling team trending upwards over the team we started the year with. That team was doomed to be average without any benefit to the club.
 
I’m firmly in the culture camp, I think a thriving, selfless culture, started years earlier with the likes of Ivan Maric and his refusal to leave crap on the locker room floor, was integral to our flags.

In fact, I reckon our chaotic play style, which involved skill but not necessarily so, was fuelled by strong culture.

Chris Scott would look at us with genuine bewilderment. We were a club that hadn’t completely bottomed out, had some decent draft picks but a fair few unskilled labourers.

He didn’t understand there was something else driving us, something greater than elite coaching, technical brilliance and tactical innovation.

He still doesn’t get it because Patrick Dangerfield is captain.

Culture. Doesn’t guarantee success, isn’t necessary for success, but I am certain you don’t build dynasties without it.
That's a pretty good summary & is the point I'm trying to make, the club is bigger than the individual. The Richmond Man label may well have worked in the past, I think it had a place during the dynasty years, we had a squeaky clean captain & a number of selfless agents who oozed professionalism, it was an easy sell. I'm more focused on the future however, I think our next leadership group needs their own identity, a fresh coat of paint so to speak. Speaking of which, the post Nankervis years will be an interesting watch, massive shoes to fill. If Cotchin hasn't been our most influential leader in the club's history he's the clear number 2.
 
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I like good culture. No dickh*#ds. Repercussions for actions. Taking responsibility. Accepting others' faults and talents. Picking up your own rubbish in the change rooms. Etc etc.

Just not sure how much it has to do with winning. You can have the best culture in the world but if you don't have the talent - it won't take you to the promised land. But it probably helps.

The Richmond man thing doesn't work for me though. Too much like a marketing logo. Too blustery. Hollow. And our culture (perceived admittedly) over the premiership period has been spotty at best - and that's a comment made only in reference to the indiscretions we know about. But if it works for a certain demographic of age and maturity to buy into a team first ethos - then more power to it.
 
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I like good culture. No dickh*#ds. Repercussions for actions. Taking responsibility. Accepting others' faults and talents. Picking up your own rubbish in the change rooms. Etc etc.

Just not sure how much it has to do with winning. You can have the best culture in the world but if you don't have the talent - it won't take you to the promised land. But it probably helps.

The Richmond man thing doesn't work for me though. Too much like a marketing logo. Too blustery. Hollow. And our culture (perceived admittedly) over the premiership period has been spotty at best - and that's a comment made only in reference to the indiscretions we know about. But if it works for a certain demographic of age and maturity to buy into a team first ethos - then more power to it.

Great post.
 
I like good culture. No dickh*#ds. Repercussions for actions. Taking responsibility. Accepting others' faults and talents. Picking up your own rubbish in the change rooms. Etc etc.

Just not sure how much it has to do with winning. You can have the best culture in the world but if you don't have the talent - it won't take you to the promised land. But it probably helps.

The Richmond man thing doesn't work for me though. Too much like a marketing logo. Too blustery. Hollow. And our culture (perceived admittedly) over the premiership period has been spotty at best - and that's a comment made only in reference to the indiscretions we know about. But if it works for a certain demographic of age and maturity to buy into a team first ethos - then more power to it.
Spotty? 3 flags in 4 years....nearly 4 in 4. Isn't the change of culture between players and coaches what made us better after 2016? Dimma said it many times to be open, no secrets, think positive, respect each other. The way Dimma promotes it now probably sounds a bit cheesy as after 7 years and different players/coaches/staff it wears out, but I still feel it was the core of our success. Most of our team were always labelled 'blue collar' types which means not much talent and skill.
 
Spotty? 3 flags in 4 years....nearly 4 in 4. Isn't the change of culture between players and coaches what made us better after 2016? Dimma said it many times to be open, no secrets, think positive, respect each other. The way Dimma promotes it now probably sounds a bit cheesy as after 7 years and different players/coaches/staff it wears out, but I still feel it was the core of our success. Most of our team were always labelled 'blue collar' types which means not much talent and skill.
Well, when I think of culture I think more about the off-field stuff more than the on-field. Over our premiership period – we had a few off-field indiscretions that if looked at objectively could appear to indicate a poor club culture.

Team chemistry and the magic that happens when a team becomes more than the sum of its parts is a different thing to me to culture. Culture may help – I’m just not sure how much.
 
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Success takes selfless sacrifice to achieve an objective or a stated outcome. In a team environment selfishness can disperse energy from the whole to achieve the stated objective. Call it what you want however 80 people at an AFL club pulling together for the same outcome is a powerful force. Success breeds complacency and arrogance. To return to the Victory Dias you have to go back to the beginning and start with the basics....There are no shortcuts to success.
 
Well, when I think of culture I think more about the off-field stuff more than the on-field. Over our premiership period – we had a few off-field indiscretions that if looked at objectively could appear to indicate a poor club culture.

Team chemistry and the magic that happens when a team becomes more than the sum of its parts is a different thing to me to culture. Culture may help – I’m just not sure how much.

And I think our lack of on field discipline also does not equate with a great culture
 
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Were a team going though generational change . Also we have a lot of injuries' atm that doesn't help .
The Good ..
We have some young players with potential :)
We have 1 pick ( maybe 2 ? ) in the mid season draft . Hopefully we can get a player /s who will help with our deficiencies eg fast midfielder etc :)


The Bad
Not Having first draft pic in a good draft year :(
Older players just a getting a bit off the pace :( 3 to 4 retiring at the end of season . It will be a different Tigers line up in 2024 .
Some young players not quite ready yet / maybe not good enough ( time will tell ) ?
Injuries :( :( ( but that does give opportunities to young players )
 
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I reckon I could give you 20 reasons for the change in performance that were all more valid than sitting down talking about your feelings.

Without even thinking about it there's injury occurrence, player development, training years, list changes, the draw, experience levels, game style changes and individual motivation that are all so far ahead of anything cultural that it's not in the same field.
No need to relitigate this, but the original contention was that coaching/culture/management were significant, whereas you thought they weren't. Then as now I think they are significant, you don't ... and that's fine.

The elephant in the room is there is no way Dustin Martin meets the definition of a 'Richmond man'. Not when he was drafted and not now.

That's by no means a knock on him, he is a fine man and great company but there is no way his personality matches the stuff espoused as being necessary to meet that definition.

Like all aspects of 'culture' however, they don't apply when you are a great player.

On the field he looks every inch a Richmond man - unselfish, talented, hard at it - I guess defensively you could argue he doesn't fit the criteria. Off-field, apart from the rumours and gutterpress stuff I wouldn't know.

On your Australian cricket team comparison, I'd argue cricket is an unusual team sport in that most of the time only two players are involved, bowler and batsman, then sometimes a fielder/wicket keeper, the other batsman if there's a run. Communication happens mostly between balls when not much is happening. It's a totally different scenario to a continuous game like AR where you run/shepherd/move into space/wait for the tap/etc etc. Team bonds, trust and instantaneous understanding of moves/patterns/reactions is totally different from cricket.
 
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No need to relitigate this, but the original contention was that coaching/culture/management were significant, whereas you thought they weren't. Then as now I think they are significant, you don't ... and that's fine.



On the field he looks every inch a Richmond man - unselfish, talented, hard at it - I guess defensively you could argue he doesn't fit the criteria. Off-field, apart from the rumours and gutterpress stuff I wouldn't know.

On your Australian cricket team comparison, I'd argue cricket is an unusual team sport in that most of the time only two players are involved, bowler and batsman, then sometimes a fielder/wicket keeper, the other batsman if there's a run. Communication happens mostly between balls when not much is happening. It's a totally different scenario to a continuous game like AR where you run/shepherd/move into space/wait for the tap/etc etc. Team bonds, trust and instantaneous understanding of moves/patterns/reactions is totally different from cricket.
Richmond Man was viable with Cotchin at the helm, he was the perfect embodiment of all the ideals the club was attempting to project, he sacrificed personal achievement for the team, he conducted himself with grace & humility, he led from the front when we needed spark, he set the standard for others to follow. If the club wants to run with another round of Richmond Man then they need another Cotchin & a support cast with a Houli, Jack, Rance, Dusty etc. At the moment we don't have a clear candidate for leadership therefore it would be wise to step back and switch the focus to the collective, at least until an appropriate leading man can be sourced. The Hawks never found their Hodge, Geelong will probably struggle with a Selwood replacement, these things don't just magically appear.
 
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Richmond Man was viable with Cotchin at the helm, he was the perfect embodiment of all the ideals the club was attempting to project, he sacrificed personal achievement for the team, he conducted himself with grace & humility, he led from the front when we needed spark, he set the standard for others to follow. If the club wants to run with another round of Richmond Man then they need another Cotchin & a support cast with a Houli, Jack, Rance, Dusty etc. At the moment we don't have a clear candidate for leadership therefore it would be wise to step back and switch the focus to the collective, at least until an appropriate leading man can be sourced. The Hawks never found their Hodge, Geelong will probably struggle with a Selwood replacement, these things don't just magically appear.

all good but has nothing to do with my reply to TBR

I do agree though that we are in different times now and we need a new message and new ways of powering the collective. I stated a couple of years back that I thought Dimma's productive time at Richmond was probably over and this may still prove to be the case - or proved wrong, hopefully.

Great article from the always excellent Cameron Rose here about the responsibility for our last season and so far this season being on Dimma - I tend to agree. Losing every close game we played (and all our losses were close) tells me something ain't right. I always felt we underachieved massively last year and should have prevented Geelong from winning that flag.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2023/04/...bility-to-win-close-games-falls-on-the-coach/
 
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