Acceptance - we are now a middling side

[The Big Richo]

To give some further context to where I come from on this, the greatest influence on my life was the 10 or so years spent with the Australian Cricket Team.

In that period was one of the most successful sporting teams in the world, great respect for it's history and former players and the game but essentially no effort to drive any sort of off-field standards or culture.

Zero motivational techniques, zero team rules, zero bonding exercises and anytime someone had a spark to introduce those things they were pushed back on and quickly removed.

The simple notion was if you were a good enough player to reach that level, prepare and execute your skills as you need to, in whatever manner that is. If you want to train, train, if you don't don't. If you want to drink beers every day or smoke or go out or stay in do it. If you want to go to the gym, run 10km or play golf then do it.

If you need someone to motivate you, tell you what to do or how to do it, or set rules for you then you don't belong here in the first place.

Be a great player, execute your skills and help us win, celebrate and repeat. Play badly and you won't be here for long. It was as simple as that.

As SK Warne would say, winners have parties, losers have meetings. That's all the culture I believe in.

 

[Scoop]

Don't doubt that TBR. You are talking about perhaps the greatest collection of talent that Australian cricket ever put on the park, a once in a lifetime set of players that are close to best ever but at the time best in the world. Doesn't apply across the board to all sports.

 

[spook]

To give some further context to where I come from on this, the greatest influence on my life was the 10 or so years spent with the Australian Cricket Team.

In that period was one of the most successful sporting teams in the world, great respect for it's history and former players and the game but essentially no effort to drive any sort of off-field standards or culture.

Zero motivational techniques, zero team rules, zero bonding exercises and anytime someone had a spark to introduce those things they were pushed back on and quickly removed.

The simple notion was if you were a good enough player to reach that level, prepare and execute your skills as you need to, in whatever manner that is. If you want to train, train, if you don't don't. If you want to drink beers every day or smoke or go out or stay in do it. If you want to go to the gym, run 10km or play golf then do it.

If you need someone to motivate you, tell you what to do or how to do it, or set rules for you then you don't belong here in the first place.

Be a great player, execute your skills and help us win, celebrate and repeat. Play badly and you won't be here for long. It was as simple as that.

As SK Warne would say, winners have parties, losers have meetings. That's all the culture I believe in.

The Australian cricket team didn't bring in a raft of 18-year-old school boys every year. Eleven hardened professionals at the peak of their craeers, as opposed to 40-odd young men at every different stage of theirs.

 

[BrisTiger24]

As SK Warne would say, winners have parties, losers have meetings. That's all the culture I believe in.

Ben Cousins, Daniel Kerr and Daniel Chick would have said the same thing back in the 2000s. I doubt you could look at the Eagles and say they had a good culture back then.

 

[The Big Richo]

The Australian cricket team didn't bring in a raft of 18-year-old school boys every year. Eleven hardened professionals at the peak of their craeers, as opposed to 40-odd young men at every different stage of theirs.

Don't doubt that TBR. You are talking about perhaps the greatest collection of talent that Australian cricket ever put on the park, a once in a lifetime set of players that are close to best ever but at the time best in the world. Doesn't apply across the board to all sports.

Those things are all true but I think it also downplays some of the other challenges a team like that faces.

Older players have different challenges in terms of leaving families for long periods of time to tour, it can be more difficult to embrace the living in each others pockets for long periods when you are older as well. Then there's the challenges of being on the road for a long time, being in different cultures, the monotony of a long tour with no downtime in your own environment, the potential to slip into a holiday mindset whilst on tour etc... You are also less likely to find similar people to yourself in the smaller cricket team environment, vs a big footy list.

Different challenges but certainly not easy.

 

[The Big Richo]

Ben Cousins, Daniel Kerr and Daniel Chick would have said the same thing back in the 2000s. I doubt you could look at the Eagles and say they had a good culture back then.

Yep and just shows how overrated culture is in success.

I'd defy anyone to say Melbourne has a good culture either, their coach has behavioural issues, the board was self destructing earlier that season, there's plenty of self first in many players and clearly not all of them enjoy each other's company to the point of being prepared to fight over dinner.

Still won a flag though because they had good players who formed a good team.

 

[T-Shirt Tommy]

Yep and just shows how overrated culture is in success.

I'd defy anyone to say Melbourne has a good culture either, their coach has behavioural issues, the board was self destructing earlier that season, there's plenty of self first in many players and clearly not all of them enjoy each other's company to the point of being prepared to fight over dinner.

Still won a flag though because they had good players who formed a good team.

You could also argue that the lack of a good culture contributed to them not going back to back as well.

 

[Smoking Aces]

Wow this thread has had more twists and turns than an Agatha Christie novel.

 

[The Big Richo]

You could also argue that the lack of a good culture contributed to them not going back to back as well.

Back to back flags are pretty hard to win.

 

[jb03]

Impressive posting by everyone. A very good read. Hopefully it doesn’t descend into personal potshots. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

My thoughts too. Can see both sides. Many years ago I coached an under 12 team to a flag. I tried the whole Richmond man thing
(or a version of it) but I've decided that we won the flag on the back of our ruck who had 45 touches and kicked 3 of our 6 goals and played probably the best game I've seen from a junior at that age in the Grand Final. Not sure the Richmond man thing ultimately contributed at all.

 

[tigers80]

Speaking of Stacky does anyone know where he’s playing or how he is going ?

Had another court appearance a couple of weeks ago.

 

[tigers80]

Disagree vehemently, even if Sydney fails he is/was a Richmond man, you are trying to create an internal set of values that build culture. We were the first club to move away from the macho BS footy club cluture and part of a Richmond man was being yourself, good bad or indifferent. The club does a power of work with minority communities in ways that make us a nonconventional football club in many senses. Peggy and Benny led that culture, being a Richmond man was all tied up to that. Good character is a given the Richmond man is way beyond that. It's one of the key reasons we built a dynasty and just about every club has copied it in one shape or form. It's not about being perfect, its the complete opposite.

We celebrate imperfections and these traverse into our community work.

 

[tiger76]

I hate the 'Richmond Man' label, it's as meaningless as the term 'un-Australian', plenty of hubris and attempts to project the club as the demigods of player management (which we are not!) Sydney Stack a case in point, when he's firing he's a 'Richmond Man', when he's off the rails he's someone else's problem. Let's just stick to 'good character' as boring as it sounds.

Professional and personal relationships all have their limits; do you feel that Stack was treated unfairly by Richmond when they decided they no longer wanted to retain his services?

And in what way did Richmond deciding to part ways with Stack equate to them being anything less than professional with their ‘man management’?

The AFL has a cap on player and support staff spend which hampers the better supported and more successful clubs from leveraging their financial standing, which would lead proactive clubs to look for other avenues to try to gain a competitive advantage.

So having an ethos like ‘Richmond Man’ provides a framework that can assist in reinforcing a range of attitudes and behaviours that can strengthen culture and drive performance over time.

(Which can be a valuable tool given that just ‘having all of the best players together in the one team’ isn’t achievable a lot of the time).

And having an ethos like ‘Richmond Man’ is something to aspire to live up to, and isn’t rendered useless if someone is unable to live up to it. It’s something to constantly drive towards.

 

[Brodders17]

Back to back flags are pretty hard to win.

Not for Richmond Men.

 

[tigertim]

Speaking of Stacky does anyone know where he’s playing or how he is going ?

He was picked in the Perth seconds side for last weekend, presume he played.

 

[bullus_hit]

Professional and personal relationships all have their limits; do you feel that Stack was treated unfairly by Richmond when they decided they no longer wanted to retain his services?

And in what way did Richmond deciding to part ways with Stack equate to them being anything less than professional with their ‘man management’?

The AFL has a cap on player and support staff spend which hampers the better supported and more successful clubs from leveraging their financial standing, which would lead proactive clubs to look for other avenues to try to gain a competitive advantage.

So having an ethos like ‘Richmond Man’ provides a framework that can assist in reinforcing a range of attitudes and behaviours that can strengthen culture and drive performance over time.

(Which can be a valuable tool given that just ‘having all of the best players together in the one team’ isn’t achievable a lot of the time).

And having an ethos like ‘Richmond Man’ is something to aspire to live up to, and isn’t rendered useless if someone is unable to live up to it. It’s something to constantly drive towards.

Stack was raised because he was a good advertisement as to an ethos not living up to the hype. He came with question marks, we all knew prior to the draft yet Richmond still took the plunge despite the record of indiscretions. It's all good and well to promote clean & healthy living but there are limitations, levelling things down to 'Richmond Man' when you are rolling the dice with highly talented but wayward personalities seems like a game of whack a mole to me. Nobody is here to apportion blame anyway, you set up a culture and see who gravitates. The Richmond Man mystique seems over the top however, every club needs good characters, I get it, but what you are talking about is collective culture, not the embodiments of an individual man or woman for that matter.

 

[DavidSSS]

It takes a certain kind of person to work well in a collective.

Yeah, Richmond Man sounds a bit twee. I think it has been a positive along with some of the other stuff like mindfulness.

But the thing is, we all know just how close the competition is these days. All the equalisation, the talent it takes to even get to the draft, let alone get drafted to an AFL club. On their day the club in 12th spot can knock off the top team, just look at how Hawthorn beat Geelong last year.

Every little advantage can help in such a close competition, and the Richmond Man ethos was a little help. It also seems to be a reasonable set of values so I have trouble seeing why some are so upset about it. Good culture is valuable in and of itself.

DS

 

[tiger76]

Stack was raised because he was a good advertisement as to an ethos not living up to the hype. He came with question marks, we all knew prior to the draft yet Richmond still took the plunge despite the record of indiscretions. It's all good and well to promote clean & healthy living but there are limitations, levelling things down to 'Richmond Man' when you are rolling the dice with highly talented but wayward personalities seems like a game of whack a mole to me. Nobody is here to apportion blame anyway, you set up a culture and see who gravitates. The Richmond Man mystique seems over the top however, every club needs good characters, I get it, but what you are talking about is collective culture, not the embodiments of an individual man or woman for that matter.

I would have thought that the club parted ways with Stack for a number of reasons, and not because he was set up to fail by a hyped up and over the top ethos that didn’t account for his personal story, hardships and personal challenges.

Again, an ethos is something to aspire to and not used as a punitive template to mark down individuals who don’t live up to it.

And as I understood it, part of Richmond’s ethos was to embrace imperfection rather than denigrate it.

Nor is it some religious cult like group think template foisted over a group of people as a way of bludgeoning them all into thinking the same thing, or the same way.

Individuals can choose their own level engagement depending in their own temperament, and the contents of the principals. It’s just a tool.

I think you may be hung up on the wording; perhaps Tiger Culture would enable you to see it through a different lens.

And how do you know that Stack hasn’t left with any ideas, principals or behaviours that will help him in his future?

I’m happy to disagree with you completely on this one; but that’s cool it’s a public forum.

 

[Leysy Days]

Ben Cousins, Daniel Kerr and Daniel Chick would have said the same thing back in the 2000s. I doubt you could look at the Eagles and say they had a good culture back then.

Actually that West Coast era is a great case study of sporting culture gone wrong.

Yes, they had enough ability to win a flag before it turned sour. And good on em' for doing so.

But because of their poor culture and turning a constant blind eye to off field behaviour they:

1) Threw away what should have been an era of dominance or what is now termed a dynasty. The ruck/midfield that day was as good as has played the game;

Cox (25)
Judd (23)
Kerr (23)
Braun (28)
Cousins (28)
Embley (25)
Wirrpanda (27)
Fletcher (27)

That talent in that age group should be playing in grand finals and winning premierships for years to come. But poor culture saw the club be ripped to shreds.

Just two years later they finished 15th, then finished 11th and 16th and wouldn't make a GF again until they got spanked by Hawthorn in 15'.

Then even worse were the off-field ramifications of that WC culture:

2)

- Chris Mainwaring Dead. All time WA football legend and close friend of many players from that era died of a drug overdose in 2007
- Chad Fletcher overdosed, stopped breathing and choked on his own vomit in 2006
- Daniel Kerr is still a wreck
- As is Daniel Chick
- And we know of Cousins battles.
- Could go on...

Yep and just shows how overrated culture is in success.

The above actually shows the ramifications of poor culture better than most. Not that it is overrated.

Ask any coach/leader worth his salt what they want their legacy to be. The good one's wont say premierships.

They will genuinely want the people they are in charge of to leave the club better people than what they arrived. It certainly is Dimma's. How did West Coast fair on that criteria?

And that is the starting point (then follow many others) to getting the most out of people, then come wins, and then maybe success and if you are lucky flags. But the latter is only the final outcome of lots of other pieces of the puzzle (as you know).

But it all starts with culture. As the old saying goes it eats strategy for breakfast.

 

[Merveille]

My thoughts too. Can see both sides. Many years ago I coached an under 12 team to a flag. I tried the whole Richmond man thing
(or a version of it) but I've decided that we won the flag on the back of our ruck who had 45 touches and kicked 3 of our 6 goals and played probably the best game I've seen from a junior at that age in the Grand Final. Not sure the Richmond man thing ultimately contributed at all.

If this was 1980 that ruckman was me. Gidday coach