Big Cat Lover said:
Never say never. He's shown just as much to the stage he's at as some other PFs
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Worst List in the Comp for the Next few years
- Thread starter jb03
- Start date
Never say never. He's shown just as much to the stage he's at as some other PFs
tigersnake said:
I agree his point is well made - smart drafting, good coaching, good development etc must be occurring at the Saints. But look closer and see where their best players have come from - is it any coincidence the first round of the draft supplied Reiwoldt, Kosi, Goddard, Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna?
And how do you get better depth when you are a poor club? How do you increase the number of good players in the club? Would you prefer to draft 3 players in the top 20 or 2? Those who argue it is not an exact science must surely agree you are better of with 3 chances than 2?
St Kilda are playing well as a team, no one is doubting that, but to get a good product at the end you have to begin with the right raw materials and the only way to get them is to draft them and more picks higher gives you a better chance of getting it right.
tigersnake said:
You are probably right, should never say never as he has a lot of talent and I'm a big fan. I'm not quite sure he has the physicality to be a power forward, whether he puts on 10kg or not. He doesn't necessarily relish the physical contest. Maybe extra size will change this.
riewoldt and goddard-pick 1s, hayes and del santo- pick 11 and 13, montagna 3rd round s. fisher 3rd round, gram- off lions rookie list, milne- off bombers rookie list. their list- and their important players, come from diff avenues.Big Cat Lover said:
off course everyone would rather 3 picks in the top 20 than 2. but that needs to be weighed up against playing to win, morale, playing guys in the right pos, playing guys on merit, the negative affect of teaching players losing is ok, etc etc. there is no definitive right or wrong on that.Big Cat Lover said:
Am really enjoying your work in this thread Brodders.
I mainly advocated the tank this year for priority selections as opposed to others because GC17 are about to strip the comp of top draft picks over the coming seasons. The talent well is about to dry up and looking at reports re the depth of this year's draft it's started already.
We need all the help we can get and lower selections make it more likely that you will end up with quality juniors. Perhaps you're not guaranteed the best in the draft in order of those selected but there's little doubt your chances of landing a genuine contributor increase significantly the higher up the pecking order you go.
I am staggered by the Saints turnaround, I really am. I thought Lyon was grasping at straws re all the retreads he has picked up.
Absolute credit to him, he's got this motley crew playing the best team based footy I have seen in some time. They must be favourites for the flag.
I mainly advocated the tank this year for priority selections as opposed to others because GC17 are about to strip the comp of top draft picks over the coming seasons. The talent well is about to dry up and looking at reports re the depth of this year's draft it's started already.
We need all the help we can get and lower selections make it more likely that you will end up with quality juniors. Perhaps you're not guaranteed the best in the draft in order of those selected but there's little doubt your chances of landing a genuine contributor increase significantly the higher up the pecking order you go.
I am staggered by the Saints turnaround, I really am. I thought Lyon was grasping at straws re all the retreads he has picked up.
Absolute credit to him, he's got this motley crew playing the best team based footy I have seen in some time. They must be favourites for the flag.
Cotchin
Collins
Reiwoldt
Post
Vickery
Foley
Deledio
Tambling
Connors (with the right coaching)
Cousins
Morton(needs a bigger tank and kick up the ass)
That is 11 players on our list i would keep to build the team around. The rest need to be traded, delisted or retired.
Not a lot of there when you look at it. No wonder we cannot win a game or even play competitive football.
These i can't make a judgement on as i haven't seen them play.
Putt
Gilligan
Gourdis
Browne
Collins
Reiwoldt
Post
Vickery
Foley
Deledio
Tambling
Connors (with the right coaching)
Cousins
Morton(needs a bigger tank and kick up the ass)
That is 11 players on our list i would keep to build the team around. The rest need to be traded, delisted or retired.
Not a lot of there when you look at it. No wonder we cannot win a game or even play competitive football.
These i can't make a judgement on as i haven't seen them play.
Putt
Gilligan
Gourdis
Browne
Brodders17 said:
I don't doubt 99% of players are trying to win at all times
Our players don't need no teaching to be able to lose, they've mastered it already
Pretty hard to improve without improving the cattle
I guess for me the key is the futility of pronouncements like the thread title. 'Worst list in the comp for the next few years' That means wooden spoon for say the next 3 years? 3 or 4 of the next 5? Whatever. History shows grand pronouncements are wrong at least as much as they are right, rendering them essentially irrelevant, except maybe as distracting discussion fodder for fan web forums. a Classic I remember was after our last flag, I still have all the souveneer lift-outs, colour. People were saying we would dominate the next decade. Things like that get said after most flags.
What Brodder post does so well to refute ludicrous pronouncements like this is illustrate how a successful TEAM is largely comprised of erstwhile apparent bums, rejects, hacks, passengers and players with a huge downside. With those said players well coached and trained to support the small elite core.
What Brodder post does so well to refute ludicrous pronouncements like this is illustrate how a successful TEAM is largely comprised of erstwhile apparent bums, rejects, hacks, passengers and players with a huge downside. With those said players well coached and trained to support the small elite core.
frawleyudud said:
One pronouncement I will make is that Connors has no stomach for whats required to becoming a decent footy player. And its not like the glimpses he has shown are worth investing heavily to try and remedy his lack of stomach.
Tigers of Old said:
Freezer said:
and frawley, he picked up a few retreads in his time. perhaps lyon learnt what not to do then.
sydney the great myth. no one had a close look at their premiership side. no one had a look at the retreads and the cost.
the 2005 sydney premiership side had five first round picks in it. four second round picks. and three 3rd round picks.
on top of this it had 3 zone selections which were worth their weight in gold almost tantamount to 1st round selections.
basically 15 of sydneys premiership side came from the first or second or third round.
hmm the retreads that played in that game.
craig bolton originally taken at 33 and only 22 at the time was a steal. sydney took him in the psd. should have been targeted by rfc with pick 2 in the psd.
mark williams.retired 06.
originally drafted by collingwood at pick 70 in the 5th round.the cost to sydney picks 8 and 39. just out of interest those picks weredaniel motlop and adam mcphee.
barry hall. originally drafted by stkilda at 19 in 95. was traded to sydney for picks 13 dalsanto 17 james kelly and 45 n clarke in 01. retired 09
nick davis originally drafted by collingwood 98 for pick 19. traded to sydney 02 for pick 21 nixon. delisted 08
j ball originally taken by wce as a zone selection in 91. highly rated junior and a virtual first rounder.traded to sydney in 99 for picks 11 and 41 glass and munro. retired 05.
d jolly originally taken by melb as a rookie 01. traded to syd for pick 15 lynden dunn in 04. 28yo still on the list.
make of it what you will but it seems to me theres an awful lot of early picks involved in that premiership. when i read about sydney i get the impression that they won a premiership on the back of retreads i dont think this is correct.
remember people sydney made a gf in 96. from 96 to 05 a premiership yr thay made finals 8 out of 10 yrs. they have had a continual core to build off. but the worm is turning. they will need to bottom out sooner rather than later.
the 2005 sydney premiership side had five first round picks in it. four second round picks. and three 3rd round picks.
on top of this it had 3 zone selections which were worth their weight in gold almost tantamount to 1st round selections.
basically 15 of sydneys premiership side came from the first or second or third round.
hmm the retreads that played in that game.
craig bolton originally taken at 33 and only 22 at the time was a steal. sydney took him in the psd. should have been targeted by rfc with pick 2 in the psd.
mark williams.retired 06.
originally drafted by collingwood at pick 70 in the 5th round.the cost to sydney picks 8 and 39. just out of interest those picks weredaniel motlop and adam mcphee.
barry hall. originally drafted by stkilda at 19 in 95. was traded to sydney for picks 13 dalsanto 17 james kelly and 45 n clarke in 01. retired 09
nick davis originally drafted by collingwood 98 for pick 19. traded to sydney 02 for pick 21 nixon. delisted 08
j ball originally taken by wce as a zone selection in 91. highly rated junior and a virtual first rounder.traded to sydney in 99 for picks 11 and 41 glass and munro. retired 05.
d jolly originally taken by melb as a rookie 01. traded to syd for pick 15 lynden dunn in 04. 28yo still on the list.
make of it what you will but it seems to me theres an awful lot of early picks involved in that premiership. when i read about sydney i get the impression that they won a premiership on the back of retreads i dont think this is correct.
remember people sydney made a gf in 96. from 96 to 05 a premiership yr thay made finals 8 out of 10 yrs. they have had a continual core to build off. but the worm is turning. they will need to bottom out sooner rather than later.
and the point im making is sydney were a regular finals side and could afford to pay heavily for recycled players to fix holes in their side. geelong did it it with ottens. stkilda a regular finals side have done it as well. stkilda have done it better than most they managed to retain early picks as well as trade each yr.Freezer said:
look at those players mentioned they were ready made and decent players no developing needed with them they filled a hole in their list. but the core was already in place done thru the nd in the main with lots of 1st 2nd 3rd round picks.
its the same at stkilda. gairdiner AA INJURY RIDDLED KING A CAPTAIN AT GEELONG AND FINE FOOTBALLER ONLY TRADED BECAUSE OF SALARY CAP ISSUES. WHOOPS CAPS ON.
tell me why no mention of charlie gardiner playfair fiora and others who were duds at their original clubs and failed at their new one. and yep there is the odd good story of a failure at one club making at the new one.
look ive complained long and hard about structure and player type and the lack of defense across the ground.in the blink of an eye by fixing these things you will get improvement. but we dont have the players to take us anywhere.skills and type leave us wallowing in rebuild mode after 8 yrs of low finishes since we last played finals.
if people think we have the list to go places and by just fixing these things we will be okay they are deluded.
structure type and plan will help but we dont have structure type or a game plan or the players capable of implementing a decent defensive game plan. we are in rebuild and early picks and as many as possible must go on youth.
tell me do you think we are in the position to trade away picks 8 39,13, 17, 45, 21 15 11 41. thats what sydneys premierhip retreads cost them they had a couple of others who didnt play in the gf which cost 34 and 47. one thing for sure sydney in the main have had to pay real decent to get something decent. the thing is they were in a position to utilise those players talents in finals.they were already a finals contender when they took those players.
the thing im saying you build a core with youth get into finals and then if need be trade to fill holes and give depth in critical areas.
