Worst List in the Comp for the Next few years

[Big Cat Lover]

Funny isn't it.
They played on the weekend WITHOUT Riewoldt and Goddard....Kosi goes goalless....and yet they beat, Hawthorn on the weekend with Hodge (pick-1), Roughead (2), Franklin (5), Dowler (6), and Lewis (7) in their team.
Not bad for a mid-table team.

It just shows you that a list like St.Kilda that was struggling to make the finals halfway through last season...dropped Milne and Dal Santo as a result...and the list was condemned....yet by getting the off-field areas correct (such as coaching staff...they brought in Tudor from Geelong to help their forward line set-up) and a proper gameplan as well as some faith in a majority of the list that were classed as "duds" (who thought Gardiner would be as good as he has been this season?)....they are now only a few wins away from being one of the most dominant teams in AFL/VFL history.
Oh...and did I tell you that they beat last years Premiers last week that had a few of their top-10 draft picks playing while having a host of their own top players out?

Getting/having the cattle is one thing.....what you do with it is another...and unless you have coaching, recruiting, and devlopment all on the same page and sufficient funds spent in these areas FIRST...then you can have all the top-10 picks you like and you still won't be any good.

That same list with those multiple high picks won a GF remember? Deflating your own argument a bit hey?

Where would St Kilda be without Reiwoldt, Kosi & Goddard? You think they would be 19-0? How do you rate these guys in terms of impriotance to St Kilda? IMO they are probably 1, 3 & 5. (I'd put Hayes at 2 and Dal Santo at 4).

You saying our list is capable of a St.Kilda like improvement in 2 years with a new coach and better player development?

I look out our list and know we are miles off and no amount of coaching or development will make strawberry jam from it. Too many players with too many issues.

 

[the claw]

Funny isn't it.
They played on the weekend WITHOUT Riewoldt and Goddard....Kosi goes goalless....and yet they beat, Hawthorn on the weekend with Hodge (pick-1), Roughead (2), Franklin (5), Dowler (6), and Lewis (7) in their team.
Not bad for a mid-table team.

It just shows you that a list like St.Kilda that was struggling to make the finals halfway through last season...dropped Milne and Dal Santo as a result...and the list was condemned....yet by getting the off-field areas correct (such as coaching staff...they brought in Tudor from Geelong to help their forward line set-up) and a proper gameplan as well as some faith in a majority of the list that were classed as "duds" (who thought Gardiner would be as good as he has been this season?)....they are now only a few wins away from being one of the most dominant teams in AFL/VFL history.
Oh...and did I tell you that they beat last years Premiers last week that had a few of their top-10 draft picks playing while having a host of their own top players out?

Getting/having the cattle is one thing.....what you do with it is another...and unless you have coaching, recruiting, and devlopment all on the same page and sufficient funds spent in these areas FIRST...then you can have all the top-10 picks you like and you still won't be any good.

the fact is they made finals last yr they finished 4th so they struggled at times but they still managed to win. look at geelong right now most are saying they are struggling but they still win most of their games. the simple fact this yr is not a bolt out of the blue for stkilda they finished 4th last and made finals 3 out of 4 yrs before that. the lowest finish they have had is 9th in that time,5 of the last 6 yrs have been finals apperances 4 of those yrs will be top 4 finishes.if you are suggesting they were *smile* before this yr you are wrong. in fact they are vey similar to geelong in a lot of ways.
both clearly had the talent to be regular top 4 sides and were. at the end of 06 geelong tweaked a few things and changed their style after their famous revue. stkilda did it at the end of 06 by sacking thomas and appointing lyon who turned them into a defensive side.
imo stkildas drafting has been ordinary since 2003 because of mainly high finishes. geelong are in the same boat. yet even with much later picks in the main there recruiting has been better than ours.

and again you off on the wrong tangent who here is arguing that players dont need to be properly developed that recruiting has to improve. but in the interim while these areas get fixed what process do you propose we adopt. if these things are wrong the last time i looked pick 1 is better than pick 7 pick 18 and 19 is better than pick 24 surely we need to make it as easy as possible on those incompetants in recruiting.

oh finally arer you saying hawthorns top picks are no good the last time i looked franklin roughhead hodge lewis and co have won hawthorn a premiership. na we dont want players capable of winning premierships.

That same list with those multiple high picks won a GF remember? Deflating your own argument a bit hey?

Where would St Kilda be without Reiwoldt, Kosi & Goddard? You think they would be 19-0? How do you rate these guys in terms of impriotance to St Kilda? IMO they are probably 1, 3 & 5. (I'd put Hayes at 2 and Dal Santo at 4).

You saying our list is capable of a St.Kilda like improvement in 2 years with a new coach and better player development?

I look out our list and know we are miles off and no amount of coaching or development will make strawberry jam from it. Too many players with too many issues.

here here theres development and then theres no hopers. the list does not grow because we have so many with deficiencies that cannot be fixed not by jesus h christ himself.

 

[Liverpool]

That same list with those multiple high picks won a GF remember? Deflating your own argument a bit hey?

The same list containing Riewoldt (pick-1), Ball (2), Clarke (5), Goddard (1), and Kosi (2) have won how many GFs again?

Deflating the argument of "high draft picks = success" don't you think considering Ball and Kosi were the only ones from this high-draft pick list in a 'mid-table team' that just defeated the reigning premiers quite easily who played their top draft picks.

Where would St Kilda be without Reiwoldt, Kosi & Goddard? You think they would be 19-0? How do you rate these guys in terms of impriotance to St Kilda? IMO they are probably 1, 3 & 5. (I'd put Hayes at 2 and Dal Santo at 4).

:clap :clap :clap
At last we're getting somewhere.
So you rank Hayes (pick 11) above a couple of top-2 picks in Kosi and Goddard........and Dal Santo (pick 13) above Goddard (1)......which backs up exactly what I have been saying.

If you have good recruiters and have money spent in the right areas off the field (such as player development, fitness staff, psychologist, player welfare, etc)....you can still get very good players through the club lower down in the pecking order (pick 5 to pick 15 say) that can make a significant impact, or in your example, a bigger impact than the so-called "top draft picks".

If St.Kilda didn't get their act together off-field and were more or less using Richmond's coaching and off-field infrastructure....do you think they would be 19-0 now and players drafted lower down would be more important than the top echelon of draft picks they had?

Sort of defeats the purpose of tanking if you ask me...

You saying our list is capable of a St.Kilda like improvement in 2 years with a new coach and better player development?

Not the entire list.....I've never said that.
of course, we'll turn over some players...but I don't see why the core of our list can't make a significant improvement in 2 years under a new coaching staff....and hopefully other areas such as fitness, development, and psychology can be really improved even more as well.

For example.....St.Kilda have improved dramatically in the last 2 years under a new coach.
Remember, in 2007 after 11 rounds they were 14th on the ladder and averaging only 74 points per game, with not one player averaging 1 tackle per game in their forward-50 (only 138 for the year and the fewest in the AFL).

Fast forward 2 years and here they are....19-0...top of the ladder...averaging 100 points per game and people talking about their "frontal pressure" as the new evolution in the game.

I look out our list and know we are miles off and no amount of coaching or development will make strawberry jam from it. Too many players with too many issues.

I am sure the Saints fans were thinking the same and that their window was closed as they finished 9th in 2007....and were looking crap halfway through last season as well.
Who would've thought....

 

[Disco08]

Sort of defeats the purpose of tanking if you ask me...

Can't agree. If you're a team with great recruiting structure and resources, surely tanking (and giving your recruitment machine the greatest amount of early picks possible) is a great way to go when you're out of finals contention early in a season?

 

[Liverpool]

imo stkildas drafting has been ordinary since 2003 because of mainly high finishes. geelong are in the same boat. yet even with much later picks in the main there recruiting has been better than ours.

Its what I have bloody been saying the whole time!

Other clubs have had lower draft picks than ours but their recruiting has been better...... so why are people advocating the "lets tank and get good draft picks" for?

We've had good draft picks and simply *smile*ed it, Claw.....we've traded them away or used them on players that were never going to be elite players to begin with (poor recruitment staff or none at all), or they were good young players and we didn't bring them on so they became good AFL players (poor development), or they've got the skills but have never built themselves physically/mentally into AFL players (fitness and psychology).

I'll say it again:

Get the off-field issues 100% BEFORE going on about tanking for draft picks because if you do that...then you actually don't need to tank because you have the infrastructures in place to get good players through the club regardless of whether you have pick-1 or pick-5 or even pick-7.

 

[Liverpool]

Can't agree. If you're a team with great recruiting structure and resources, surely tanking (and giving your recruitment machine the greatest amount of early picks possible) is a great way to go when you're out of finals contention early in a season?

I don't think you need to rely on it to be honest.

In fact, I think all the "tanking" talk on here is just lazy....and sounds like the "lets get top draft picks and draft young superstars".....which to me is a lottery (just ask Melbourne about T.Johnstone).

Whereas....if you have your infrastructures right....you can get a good player at pick-7 say, and still make him into a very good AFL player.

You do the hard yards off the field and you can actually develop a TEAM....not just being lazy, picking out the best young player at pick-1, and hope for the best.

Also, you keep a winning culture and a successful aura about the club and the players which filters down through the young players coming through if you don't tank.

I guess the Eagles are a good example this season of doing just that......they have the resources to have excellent off-field infrastructures and therefore aren't relying on tanking to get THE best young player...they know that they can still develop a player they get at pick-3 or pick-4 as well as keep a winning culture within the club as best they can.

 

[Disco08]

Possibly, but what advantages are there in winning a couple of extra games when the trade off is an extra early draft pick?

 

[Liverpool]

Possibly, but what advantages are there in winning a couple of extra games when the trade off is an extra early draft pick?

Read again:

Get the off-field issues 100% BEFORE going on about tanking for draft picks because if you do that...then you actually don't need to tank because you have the infrastructures in place to get good players through the club regardless of whether you have pick-1 or pick-5 or even pick-7

 

[TigerForce]

Read again:

Get the off-field issues 100% BEFORE going on about tanking for draft picks because if you do that...then you actually don't need to tank because you have the infrastructures in place to get good players through the club regardless of whether you have pick-1 or pick-5 or even pick-7

Have we ever bothered to learn from other clubs?? No I don't think so.

 

[Disco08]

Read again:

Get the off-field issues 100% BEFORE going on about tanking for draft picks because if you do that...then you actually don't need to tank because you have the infrastructures in place to get good players through the club regardless of whether you have pick-1 or pick-5 or even pick-7

I read it Livers. Why you're telling me to read it again is beyond me given it really has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make.

Hypothetically, we've got the off field issues right. Our recruiters have done a great job but injuries have decimated our start to the season. Our finals chances are shot by round 12 with our best 5 players all out and a host of other lesser injuries. Why wouldn't we try and tank (pick a young team, don't bring the injured stars back) to get the extra pick and ensure ourselves the extra good player our recruiters are likely to deliver?

 

[Brodders17]

Where would St Kilda be without Reiwoldt, Kosi & Goddard? You think they would be 19-0? How do you rate these guys in terms of impriotance to St Kilda? IMO they are probably 1, 3 & 5. (I'd put Hayes at 2 and Dal Santo at 4).

kosi is the 3rd most important player in the team? ur having a laugh surely. no sam fisher? no brownlow fav?
kosi averages 10.5 disposals a game. 6.5 marks. 2.2 goals, and 1.2 tackles.
just to compare
jack riewoldt 13.1 disposals a game, 6.6marks, 1.6 goals and 2.5 tackles.

 

[CK]

Hahahah. Just saw that myself and had a chuckle. Fair play to ya Calvin Klien you had Dr Nick first.

No problemo Scoopy. ;D

Time to move the avatar to another area of Richmond that is a mockery.

No shortage of inept depts at Tigerland. We should get users to allocate a Simpsons character to every dept for their avatar.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

The same list containing Riewoldt (pick-1), Ball (2), Clarke (5), Goddard (1), and Kosi (2) have won how many GFs again?

Deflating the argument of "high draft picks = success" don't you think considering Ball and Kosi were the only ones from this high-draft pick list in a 'mid-table team' that just defeated the reigning premiers quite easily who played their top draft picks.

:clap :clap :clap
At last we're getting somewhere.
So you rank Hayes (pick 11) above a couple of top-2 picks in Kosi and Goddard........and Dal Santo (pick 13) above Goddard (1)......which backs up exactly what I have been saying.

If you have good recruiters and have money spent in the right areas off the field (such as player development, fitness staff, psychologist, player welfare, etc)....you can still get very good players through the club lower down in the pecking order (pick 5 to pick 15 say) that can make a significant impact, or in your example, a bigger impact than the so-called "top draft picks".

If St.Kilda didn't get their act together off-field and were more or less using Richmond's coaching and off-field infrastructure....do you think they would be 19-0 now and players drafted lower down would be more important than the top echelon of draft picks they had?

Sort of defeats the purpose of tanking if you ask me...

Not the entire list.....I've never said that.
of course, we'll turn over some players...but I don't see why the core of our list can't make a significant improvement in 2 years under a new coaching staff....and hopefully other areas such as fitness, development, and psychology can be really improved even more as well.

For example.....St.Kilda have improved dramatically in the last 2 years under a new coach.
Remember, in 2007 after 11 rounds they were 14th on the ladder and averaging only 74 points per game, with not one player averaging 1 tackle per game in their forward-50 (only 138 for the year and the fewest in the AFL).

Fast forward 2 years and here they are....19-0...top of the ladder...averaging 100 points per game and people talking about their "frontal pressure" as the new evolution in the game.

I am sure the Saints fans were thinking the same and that their window was closed as they finished 9th in 2007....and were looking crap halfway through last season as well.
Who would've thought....

One result in isolation is hardly evidence that draft picks don't matter. Read the list you name - what do they have in common - they are all first round draft picks.

We have had an opportunity to get "multiple" first round draft picks and what happens - we fluff it.

You think in 2-3 years time we will be higher on the ladder than Melb? you think we are a better chance of sustained success? Do you think we will have a better list?

Instead of being able to cull the list harder we are forced to prolong the careers of chronically deficient players.

Its alll about multiple picks higher in the draft - you are basically saying it yourself above - it doesn't really matter if you have pick 7 or pick 11, what matters is getting "multiple" picks in the first round if the opportunity arises - which it has but which Richmond stupidly haven't taken advantage of.

No one is advocating players "throwing" games because it won't happen, but do you think in 3 years time Melb supporters will give a rats toss about the "coaching" performance of Dean Bailey in the Richmond game. No. The fact Colin Sylvia played ion the 2's? No. They'll be happier that they got an extra elite player when the opportunity presented.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

kosi is the 3rd most important player in the team? ur having a laugh surely. no sam fisher? no brownlow fav?
kosi averages 10.5 disposals a game. 6.5 marks. 2.2 goals, and 1.2 tackles.
just to compare
jack riewoldt 13.1 disposals a game, 6.6marks, 1.6 goals and 2.5 tackles.

So your compariosn suggests you'd rather Jack than Kosi?

Just my opinion, some players provide structure and a presence on the ground that isn't measured simply in kicks/handballs etc.

Reiwoldt needs Kosi a bit like Brown needs Bradshaw. A bit like Jack could use the presence of Richo.

Midfielders like Montagna (I assume you are referring to him) are replaceable, key fowards who can take a grab and alternate in the ruck don't grow on trees. Who plays at FF/CHF if Kosi is out?

He's also much more important than a Sam Fisher. Not knocking Sam Fisher (who is a fantastic player and one I'd love at richmond) just think Kosi is more important to St Kilda.

 

[the claw]

Get the off-field issues 100% BEFORE going on about tanking for draft picks because if you do that...then you actually don't need to tank because you have the infrastructures in place to get good players through the club regardless of whether you have pick-1 or pick-5 or even pick-7.[/size]

so what do we do in the interim. how many times must it be asked. oh i know lets abstain from the draft . bloody hell.

if they cant use early picks at least give them the earliest picks possible. ya know even that rabble in recent times has shown they can get top 5 picks right. when they dont trade em away that is.
even when you have good people its still best to finish low when you have a list like ours. but when you have sdick heads in charge it becomes paramount to give them picks that are very hard to stuff up.
you remember livers our list the worst in the comp for very obvious reasons. but thats right you ignore the chronic poor kicks deceision makers undersized and slow plethora of players we have on our list.players who cant be turned around no matter the amount of development you put into them because they are never going to aquire the skills that other clubs place on players when first drafted. a dud is a dud is a dud.but no they can be turned around. its laughable that we have the temerity to compare such deficient to players as those at succesful clubs .

again i ask a proper bottoming out process which was advocated by my good self. 07 2 18 19. 08 1 3 19. 09 1 4 20 are you saying they are so bad that they will stuff all of these picks up, even you livvers or stevie wonder would get the majority of these picks right.

a top 10 pick what are you chasing at best an elite footballer at worst a long term core list player who is well rounded.and here we are talking top 4 picks and early second rounders.

to me its better to go thru the process and fail than ignore the only process totally that is available to grow the list. you dont realise we have no other options if you dont want to use the draft which in fact is what you are saying how will we improve the list oh i know trade all of ou picks away for recycled players. again i ask in the interim what do you propose we do i will keep aking it until you answer.

if you cant pick a decent kid for love of money why would you go with pick 7 when you can go with a top 5 pick and in the main get it right. and yeah i can see it now lounder banik etc etc it will be typical. no acknowledgement of how precise the draft has become and how it continues to evolve and get better. even dumb arse clubs can get it right most of the time.

i can honestly say if i was in charge of list development over the last 4 yrs. i could retire now in the knowledge that the club will be entering at the very least a sustained period in the top 4, and hence hopefully a crack at a premiership. how a simple proper bottoming out principal, ive never changed ive advocated tanking and very early picks for a while now yet continually get howled down.
we will never see eye to eye on this we are indeed poles apart on some very basic principals. by all means fix offield problems in the footy dept indeed prioritise it but weather we have good people in the footy dept or bad there is only one process to go thru not just this yr but every yr.

 

[Brodders17]

So your compariosn suggests you'd rather Jack than Kosi?

Just my opinion, some players provide structure and a presence on the ground that isn't measured simply in kicks/handballs etc.

Who plays at FF/CHF if Kosi is out?

the saints are 19-0 cos of their midfield/ inability of opposition to score against them. kosi isnt a major factor in either of those things. good player. 3rd most important to the saints getting to 19-0? no.
him or jack? this year? kosi, definitely? yes. by miles? no. yet some reckon jack has struggled.
to have on our list? jack.

without riewoldt, mcevoy played up front. he kicked more goals, had more disposals, marks and tackles than kosi.

Midfielders like Montagna (I assume you are referring to him) are replaceable, key fowards who can take a grab and alternate in the ruck don't grow on trees.

He's also much more important than a Sam Fisher. Not knocking Sam Fisher (who is a fantastic player and one I'd love at richmond) just think Kosi is more important to St Kilda.

montagna is a brownlow fav, and has been a key in their midfield, the midfield that is the key to their success this year. would they win without him? probably, just as they would without kosi.

i dont think kosi has had a great year, and i dont think they would miss as much as they would others in their team right now.

anyway, the saints are 19-0. good luck to them. my original point, again, was that their players have come from all diff methods, they have all developed at diff rates, and many have at diff times been under the pump and if their team was run by a PRE committee many of them wouldnt be their now.

 

[Liverpool]

Hypothetically, we've got the off field issues right. Our recruiters have done a great job but injuries have decimated our start to the season. Our finals chances are shot by round 12 with our best 5 players all out and a host of other lesser injuries. Why wouldn't we try and tank (pick a young team, don't bring the injured stars back) to get the extra pick and ensure ourselves the extra good player our recruiters are likely to deliver?

so what do we do in the interim. how many times must it be asked. oh i know lets abstain from the draft . bloody hell.
if they cant use early picks at least give them the earliest picks possible. ya know even that rabble in recent times has shown they can get top 5 picks right. when they dont trade em away that is.

Disco/Claw,
If you have the off-field areas covered (recruiting, development, fitness, psychology, welfare, etc) and are extremely confident in having the resources to draft a good young kid and mould him into an excellent AFL footballer......then there is no real benefit to 'tank'.
You can argue that this will give you a better draft pick.....but lets be honest, we've had three-quarters of Geelong's midfield (Selwood, Corey, and Bartel) drafted between pick 5 and 10....and it looks like this year, Daniel Rich will be the Rising Star and he was picked up at between 5 and 10 also.
If you have the off-field areas in a good position to have a positive influence over the young draftees (and actaully having the right people to pick good talent to begin with!) then I think 'tanking' can have more of a detriment effect on the club.

Is it worth spending money and resources building great off-field departments to try and make the club into one that can have sustained success and therefore an ongoing winning culture and then have that offset by having players play in positions so games are lost and a losing culture being weened into the club?

I think in this respect that risking the fabric of the football club for an extra pick or a higher pick in the draft is wrong and should set alarm bells ringing.
I think the Eagles did the right thing this season....they could have manufactured losses to get a priority pick, but they realise and have faith in their various off-field departments to acknowledge that trying to sustain a winning culture and that the aim of the club is to play to win every week, that the fabric of the club is FAR more important than having this ideology put at risk which could harm the club for a number of seasons purely to gain an extra pick or a higher pick in the draft.

They know that even if they have pick-3 or pick-8 or whatever pick they have in the top-10 that they will still be able to get a good kid and give that kid every opportunity to become a good AFL player because they have their off-field departments in good order....and can do all this without compromising the culture of the club and the young players coming through and still learning the game.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

the saints are 19-0 cos of their midfield/ inability of opposition to score against them. kosi isnt a major factor in either of those things. good player. 3rd most important to the saints getting to 19-0? no.
him or jack? this year? kosi, definitely? yes. by miles? no. yet some reckon jack has struggled.
to have on our list? jack.

without riewoldt, mcevoy played up front. he kicked more goals, had more disposals, marks and tackles than kosi.

montagna is a brownlow fav, and has been a key in their midfield, the midfield that is the key to their success this year. would they win without him? probably, just as they would without kosi.

i dont think kosi has had a great year, and i dont think they would miss as much as they would others in their team right now.

anyway, the saints are 19-0. good luck to them. my original point, again, was that their players have come from all diff methods, they have all developed at diff rates, and many have at diff times been under the pump and if their team was run by a PRE committee many of them wouldnt be their now.

In one game - you and Liverpool using one game in isolation to support you theories - LOL stuff

You think McEvoy could replace Kosi at FF? Rucks as FF - great a bit like how Minson is so effective for the Bulldogs there.

Jack rather than Kosi - LOL again. Jack will never be a power forward nor backup ruck. ATM he's a third tall/leadup forward with potential to hold down a key post. Kosi hasn't had a great year but still a much better footballer than Jack.

Saints midfield is composed of how many players? Hayes/Montagna/Dal Santo/Gram/Goddard/Baker/Ball/Jones/Ray...I agree Montagna has been fantastic but IMO you can replace him albeit with a player of lesser quality. Take out Kosi (esp against a full strength Geelong backline) and you'll make it very hard for Reiwoldt and the saints to kick a winning score.

BTW Hayes much more important than Montagna - take out Hayes and you remove the guy who gets it to Montagna/Dal Santo/Goddard/Gram and co.

 

[Brodders17]

In one game - you and Liverpool using one game in isolation to support you theories - LOL stuff

i used that one game cos thats all we got to go on, the saints without rielwoldt. i could list all the games where kosi has had very little impact and the saints have won. there are many this year.

Jack rather than Kosi - LOL again. Jack will never be a power forward nor backup ruck. ATM he's a third tall/leadup forward with potential to hold down a key post. Kosi hasn't had a great year but still a much better footballer than Jack.

kosi had a moment in the sun as a ruckman. but he will never be a ruckman. he is a key forward. one who doesnt kick many goals or take a lot of marks.
if jack never kicks over 37 goals in a season, or the 50 kosi will get to if he keeps his average this year, i will be very disappointed. if at the age of 26 his best goal tally is 30 i will be very disappointed. if his best year for marks he averages 7.3/game (which kosi achieved rucking- as a KF it is 6.6) i will be very disappointed. i think jack will achieve more in his career than kosi.

kosi is a decent player. im sure the saints were/are hoping for a lot better.

Saints midfield is composed of how many players? Hayes/Montagna/Dal Santo/Gram/Goddard/Baker/Ball/Jones/Ray...I agree Montagna has been fantastic but IMO you can replace him albeit with a player of lesser quality. Take out Kosi (esp against a full strength Geelong backline) and you'll make it very hard for Reiwoldt and the saints to kick a winning score.

BTW Hayes much more important than Montagna - take out Hayes and you remove the guy who gets it to Montagna/Dal Santo/Goddard/Gram and co.

yes montagna is surrounded by a good midfield. one he leads in kicks and tackles, and is 2nd in inside50s, contested possessions and disposals.
and yep hayes is a good player.

 

[tigersnake]

As I said Brodders, Your point was well made. Any one who wants to pick at the minute detail of your post, take you to task on an assessment of an individual, is missing the point I'm afraid. Its a team game, and not everyone in that team is a complete player.