Worst List in the Comp for the Next few years

[Harry]

So whats you solution JB?Should we go through every club in the major 2nd tier comps[VFL,SANFL,WAFL] and recruit those who do have certain skills that we lack[Footskills mainly]and take a gamble?

the solution has been repeated on this forum by the knowledgeable few. bottom out properly, trade into the draft rather than out of it and invest heavily in the draft for sustained amount of years. early picks, priority picks, and heaps of them for 5-6 years would have seen us climb the ladder but the club and most supporters want to remain in fantasy land and overrate our list and think we are thereabouts with a bit of tinkering, a retread here or there and some luck with injury we'll win a flag. How many were justifying us picking up the likes of thomson and hislop and only getting 2 kids just last year. think about it - there is no gain without pain and for us there's alot of pain we need to go through but this club never realises this and never wants to go through this pain. short cuts and more short cuts is the motto. weak draft, mature bodies and age gaps in the list is all we here justifying their stupid decisions. is it any wonder??

 

[Liverpool]

the solution has been repeated on this forum by the knowledgeable few. bottom out properly, trade into the draft rather than out of it and invest heavily in the draft for sustained amount of years. early picks, priority picks, and heaps of them for 5-6 years would have seen us climb the ladder but the club and most supporters want to remain in fantasy land and overrate our list and think we are thereabouts with a bit of tinkering, a retread here or there and some luck with injury we'll win a flag. How many were justifying us picking up the likes of thomson and hislop and only getting 2 kids just last year. think about it - there is no gain without pain and for us there's alot of pain we need to go through but this club never realises this and never wants to go through this pain. short cuts and more short cuts is the motto. weak draft, mature bodies and age gaps in the list is all we here justifying their stupid decisions. is it any wonder??

Harry,
I was not a fan of picking up Hislop, Thompson, Kingsley, Houlihan, Hudson, etc either.

But let me play devils' advocate for a minute......if a club like Richmond who has doubled the personnel in their football department, which says to me we have been under resourced......maybe we traded away our draft picks and/or wasted them on dud young players because we didn't have the off-field infrastructures in place to actually make our picks count?

Its o.k people keep bleating about tank, get picks, tank, get more picks...then we draft 10 superstars and then say hello to sustained success......but its fantasy world stuff mate.
Its great in theory and sounds fantastic....but you have to take into account all the other things that surround it...lets pick out just a couple:
* Corporate sponsors = do they want to be associated and invest in a losing club? Will their lack of money affect the football department and attracting top quality personnel to find these top kids we are supposedly going to draft with all thes priority/draft picks?
* Fans.....will they keep buying memberships if we keep losing? = lack of income
* Players....can we negotiate good players to come to the club if our grand plan is losing games and getting draft picks for 'maybe success' in 2012+ ?

Nobody will invest heavily in a club that hasn't got a concrete grand plan and is relying on a lottery for 'maybe success in a few years'.

I think what we need to do first is get the off-field stuff right, which looks to be heading in the right direction....I think the appointment of Benny Gale is a good one as well.
Then we need to get the right coach and I am really happy that the club didn't wilt to the likes of Sheedy or Buckley and are still going through their process.
As for the players...there are some players that need to go as all clubs have, even the top ones....but I think the core of the list does have potential.

I look back at 1995......we made a prelim with a list that, on paper, had half the skills of the list we have now....but the 1995 list had one thing our current list don't have, and that was to play for each other each week and give 100%.
They tackled in packs of 3 and 4...never gave up...and while they didn't have flash skills, they had a comraderie about them.
If we can somehow get the "teamwork" amongst this current group...I think we can make some good strides next year.

 

[tigerdave]

And we've only had a fulltime recruiter since 2005....Deary me! :

 

[the claw]

Agreed. The result dictates the discussion every week.

i beg to differ not with this little black duck anyway. in fact theres a few of us who constantly recognise playes have had decent games but are not the way forward.

 

[Scoop]

I look back at 1995......we made a prelim with a list that, on paper, had half the skills of the list we have now....but the 1995 list had one thing our current list don't have, and that was to play for each other each week and give 100%.
They tackled in packs of 3 and 4...never gave up...and while they didn't have flash skills, they had a comraderie about them.
If we can somehow get the "teamwork" amongst this current group...I think we can make some good strides next year.

Might have worked then but it doesn't now. Flash skills are required or at least better then average. That stuff that you talk about there doesn't cut the mustard. You can have all the team work you like but if you cannot get the ball by hand or foot to the advantage of your team you are going no where fast.

Scoop,
You only find these players by having a strong and well-paid recruiting network.
It is something that the interstate clubs have over us in spades...they have the money and the resources to put the likes of Cox, Sandilands, and Bock on a rookie list because they have the network and the capability to do just that.
We haven't had that and why we have wasted top pick after top pick....or traded picks for other players....which is why the 'tank to get picks' is a fallacy.

Garbage. Get your picks right and the rest follows. Get a well paid recruiting network. Get smarter with what you have. Push all spare money into the recruiting department. Have some footballing morals and stick to them. Invest in youth, invest in skillful players, trade at a high (push Jackson and McGuane for extra thrid and fourth rounders), have a plan, give it team. The Richmond supporter base will gave a rebuild time if it is done the right way.

 

[the claw]

yeah it's true for the head in sand supporters which is basically the majority. those supporters who always overate our list. it's amazing how ferals fluctuate.

jb may not know the state of our list in 5 years time but currently our list is in the bottom 2 and needs major major clean out - its amazing most tiger fans wouldn't trade cousins for a second rounder. as claw says most deserve what they get.

here here harold there are those of us who stick to our guns week after week yr after yr while the majority the fools the deluded nincompoops are all over the shop.

who was it who were happy with the essendon win again . certainly not the pragmatid ones who were still lamenting the loss of the pp because we understand where the list is at and how poor so many of our players are.

ive said it often players will have a good game they may even have a decent block of games a good yr even but they revert to type because their deficiencies are always there. you rate them and if they fall into the below standard category you *smile* them off. you dont hang on for 6 yrs hoping the weaknesses in their games will disappear they rarely do.

 

[NavyBlueBudzy]

With the massive turnover of player I expect to happen at seasons end I think we will get worse before we get better.

Reminds me a bit like (dare I say it) the Carlscum.

You've got some quality kids to build around I reckon.

While we've been *smile* for while, our kids are starting to get some fitness and are starting to gain a bit of confidence with their increasing responsibilities.

Young Cotch is a ripper, and one who the other youngsters will feed off.

Things will turn for tigers sooner rather than later ....unfortunately

 

[the claw]

I think people need to acknowledge young players will be prone to inconsistency, the usual bagging of patto, Graham, McMahon and Jackson is becoming tiresome and is a ridiculous measure of whether we'll be a force in a few years.

Today was one of those days where the likes of Riewoldt, Nahas, Vickery, Post and Edwards had days they would rather forget - naturally over time these will be few and far between, other guys like Hislop and hopefully Rance (although I still have my reservations) will also grow into their roles.

Of course there are holes in the list, most teams have them and if one has a close look at Melbourne and Freo, a similar scenario emerges. To claim we will have the worst list in 3 years time is akin to reading tea leaves. In fact it's so far fetched that I would put my hard earned up for grabs if given the right odds.

and the flip side is i think people need to acknowledge that a lot of our kids have chronic weakness and they may not make it.

 

[Rosy]

....unfortunately

Oi that's enough of that kind of talk...but welcome to PRE anyway.

I converted my husband from a Blue to a Tiger when I married him. I might have to use my magic powers on you. Yellow&BlackBudzy has a nice ring to it. :angel:

 

[NavyBlueBudzy]

Oi that's enough of that kind of talk...but welcome to PRE anyway.

I converted my husband from a Blue to a Tiger when I married him. I might have to use my magic powers on you. Yellow&BlackBudzy has a nice ring to it. :angel:

*shudders* ... 8)

 

[the claw]

Ease up on Rance, hes only a boy. Hes playing his second or third season. It took Scarlett years to get to the level hes at, and he doesn't have to deal with the volume of ball coming at him that our back line does. Our list has a lot of major floors but i dont think the back lines that bad.

oh sheesh here we go again.

look i was one who advocated strongly we take rance was rapt we got him.

i didnt spot a kicking weakness or poor decision making in him as a junior. yeah his kicking was not top notch and he turned it over every now and then usually running at full tilt and not balancing himself properly. but i could see no real structural problem with his kicking, to me it was sound. the only problem i had with his decision process at junior level was perhaps he had to learn when to go for a gallop and when to stay at home. again no big concern.

but at top level he looks to be very ordinary by foot and his thought process dumb. to top it off he is not playing any one on one contested footy on kpfs. if hes not to be a rebounding defender because of foot skills and poor decision making we need him to be a defensive player capable of taking his opponent right out of the game and we are not getting that either.

one thing though you are right he is only in his second yr and maybe these areas can be improved upon maybe they cant.
either way it is an area of concern and if these areas dont improve dramatically you can kiss another early pick goodbye.

as for the backline over all it is easily the worst in the comp both structurally and skill wise.

every yr the same arguments every yr we have the odd decent win and everything goes out the window yep disco is right ferals everywhere continually change their minds. its happened what 5 times this yr at least.

 

[tigerdave]

Welcome to the Madhouse Navyblue.....

 

[IanG]

oh sheesh here we go again.

look i was one who advocated strongly we take rance was rapt we got him.

i didnt spot a kicking weakness or poor decision making in him as a junior. yeah his kicking was not top notch and he turned it over every now and then usually running at full tilt and not balancing himself properly. but i could see no real structural problem with his kicking, to me it was sound. the only problem i had with his decision process at junior level was perhaps he had to learn when to go for a gallop and when to stay at home. again no big concern.

but at top level he looks to be very ordinary by foot and his thought process dumb. to top it off he is not playing any one on one contested footy on kpfs. if hes not to be a rebounding defender because of foot skills and poor decision making we need him to be a defensive player capable of taking his opponent right out of the game and we are not getting that either.

But that implies to me that he has the tools he's just not being developed properly.

 

[Harry]

Harry,
I was not a fan of picking up Hislop, Thompson, Kingsley, Houlihan, Hudson, etc either.

But let me play devils' advocate for a minute......if a club like Richmond who has doubled the personnel in their football department, which says to me we have been under resourced......maybe we traded away our draft picks and/or wasted them on dud young players because we didn't have the off-field infrastructures in place to actually make our picks count?

excuses. something we are good at is making excuses and if premierships were awarded for excuse making our trophy cupboard would be busting at the seams.

it hasn't stopped clubs like the bulldogs, st.kilda, north being competitve when they've been underesourced. harwthorn too nearly went bust and nearly merged. where were their finances when they stuck to a rebuilding process axed duds and won a flag?

had we axed overpaid duds instead of signing them up on more money year after year, contract after contract we would have been able to replace them with kids on less money and financed the football department with the change. doesn't take a genius to figure that out - obviously no geniuses at punt rd

stop making excuses and just admit we have never stuck to a proper process of rebuilding the list.

 

[the claw]

Most on here keep harping on about gaining higher picks and extra picks but don't realise that it all means nothing when we don't have a proper skills and development coach(es) in the club.

The only difference between a Lids (high pick) and a Newman (low pick) are their natural skills and nous. They both still perform at a similar average level in most games.

I'm not questioning the list or Jade. I'm questioning 8 years of waste from Frawley and Wallace. Especially 5 from Wallace.

It's like we need a 'commission' to look into this.

we had our commission it was called a review just another white wash and cover up of poor performance if you ask me. members should be demanding the reviews findings be made public.

 

[thomas the tiger]

The few on this site that have some serious thoughts on how to build a list have not not swayed in their direction. That is to bottom out properly and use those picks on youngsters.

At this point in time after years of mediricity and more to come, that you have to say we are correct in our ways to rebuild. Maybe when these supporters see Carlton in the finals this September they may start to think a bit deeper than they do now. If not when if 3 years time when Melbourne are in the finals they may realise how to build a list

 

[the claw]

:clap :clap :clap
Its what I have been bleating to the pro-tankers about for a while too, mate.

You only have to read the "JON" thread and the draft picks we missed out on AFTER we chose JON to prove that.


I do question Jade somewhat.
I think the media are overblowing his performances and I don't think he is coaching to win games....and I think that is making our list look worse than what it really is.
I'd love to know what is mandate is.

pro tankers are all about making sure we have the right personall in recruiting and development claws been going on about that *smile* since miller first arrived. pro tankers want both early picks and as many as we can get along with decent footy dept structures you never seem to be able to grasp this. its as if you think we can have one but not the other when we should be aiming for both.

as a pro tanker i have doubts about both cameron and jackson but i realise and recognise that we have to take part in the nd we might as well have early picks than late picks and make it easier on ourselves.

if as you say development is stuffed along with recruiting we might as well forgo the draft, please tell me what other way have we to turn the list over. take later picks and retreads :. the problem of building the list doesnt go away just because all and sundry recognise development and recruiting sucks. recruiting development and the draft go hand in hand.

theres less chance of getting it wrong if you have picks 1 3 19 35 51 than 7 23 39 55 god forbid we may select a player who needs minimal development. what you continually propose only makes the problem worse, geez we cant recruit and we cant develop so lets not use early picks lets do it the hard might as well we will only get it wrong how silly is that.

just remember livers 2, 18, 19, 1, 3, and 1, 4, the last 3 yrs should all have been ours. we only had to bottom out.

who here thinks a bottom 3 finish this yr is not a true reflection of where the list is at.

 

[the claw]

That's why we need him at our struggling club. The more knowledge and experience our kids gain from him, the better.

why bother according to livvers theres no point in doing anything until we get development and recruiting right.it seems things like this are mutually exclusive.

 

[IanG]

pro tankers are all about making sure we have the right personall in recruiting and development claws been going on about that sh!t since miller first arrived. pro tankers want both early picks and as many as we can get along with decent footy dept structures you never seem to be able to grasp this. its as if you think we can have one but not the other when we should be aiming for both.

Fair enough but you and others don't seem to grasp that anti tankers want exactly the same thing, its not simply about building a 'winning culture'.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Has anyone posting in this thread read Emma Quayle's article comparing where North and Richmond could be in 2012? Take a deep breath and have a look, she makes a lot of sense.