will we need to be vaccinated to attend games in 2022

[tommystigers]

Riddle me this, if the Virus can only mutate through a host and the Vaccinated get the virus and pass the virus on - How does that stop the Covid Virus again? I will wait for the answer?

There are 50,000 reported adverse reactions in Australia to the Vaccines as reported on the TGA website. My Wife is a Nurse and she has seen some cases of adverse reactions. Anyone that says the Vaccines are completely safe are not looking at the data.

I am not against Vaccination. Trusting a Politician and a Drug company with your health is not a guaranteed path to a safe outcome.

I'll respond to your response which got mutated in the quotinator. Yes, you can still get the virus and die if fully vaccinated. Yes, the virus can mutate in the vaccinated. Yes, the vaccine is not completely safe. Who cares. Not getting vaccinated is akin to sitting on a freeway hoping a car won't hit you. Mental midgetry.

Not dying is not my motivation for getting fully vaccinated with AstraZeneca. I went as soon as it became available to me. I got vaccinated to reduce the risk to my two pregnant daughters and my two yet to be born grand-daughters. I got vaccinated to reduce the risk to my wife's 85 year old mother. I got vaccinated to help Australia get out of lockdown. I got vaccinated to reduce the risk to my community, including the selfish and moronic muppets that bleat, bleat, bleat, about freedoms and rights, and spruik lunatic theories and fears in order to sell dodgy goods and services or some smoke-shield theory masking a significant undiagnosed mental health issue. Tik Tok and Insta influencers are the new breed of Einstein.

You can stick your refusal to vaccinate in a high colonic and irrigate. I don't care if your wife is a nurse or you purportedly know more about vaccines than me. Donald Trump knows more about it than you. He said it. He is what I think of when people posit superior knowledge quoting interwebz researches.

 

[waiting]

There are so many self-righteous statements being made without an understanding of the available data.

Fact - risk/benefit profile was the overriding factor associated with the emergency approval of vaccines by regulatory authorities in the face of the global health emergency caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus. This virus is the cause of the COVID-19 disease in infected people. In Aus, all vaccines (AZ, Pfizer & now Moderna) have only received "provisional" approval by the TGA (i.e. not enough data to grant full approval).

So you are both right and wrong David. Selecting certain snippets from academic articles can distort the intended messaging. Lets actually look at the full abstract of the key findings:

"Findings: Between 11th–25th June 2021 (week 7–8 after dose 2), 69 healthcare workers were tested positive for SARS-CoV-2. 62 participated in the clinical study. 49 were (pre)symptomatic with one requiring oxygen supplementation. All recovered uneventfully. 23 complete-genome sequences were obtained. They all belonged to the Delta variant, and were phylogenetically distinct from the contemporary Delta variant sequences obtained from community transmission cases, suggestive of ongoing transmission between the workers. Viral loads of breakthrough Delta variant infection cases were 251 times higher than those of cases infected with old strains detected between March-April 2020. Time from diagnosis to PCR negative was 8–33 days (median: 21). Neutralizing antibody levels after vaccination and at diagnosis of the cases were lower than those in the matched uninfected controls. There was no correlation between vaccine-induced neutralizing antibody levels and viral loads or the development of symptoms.

Interpretation: Breakthrough Delta variant infections are associated with high viral loads, prolonged PCR positivity, and low levels of vaccine-induced neutralizing antibodies, explaining the transmission between the vaccinated people. Physical distancing measures remain critical to reduce SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant transmission."

To clarify, the term "breakthrough infections" refers to vaccinated individuals who have been infected with SARS-Cov-2. So yes this study would indeed suggest that vaccinated individuals do have high viral loads and thus are potentially responsible for ongoing transmission of the virus. In other words, they may not develop the COVID-19 disease, but they are able to transmit the virus!

Obviously, there is so much we do not know and extreme caution is urged when looking at a single study. What we do know is that we are in the midst of a global clinical trial and the data, while still limited, is thankfully starting to accumulate. For those individuals unsure of whether to vaccinate or not, an assessment of their risk/profile through consultations with their GP is the best way forward.

I think there is a lot to play out before normal crowds return to the footy in 2022....vaccinated or not.

For those individuals unsure of whether to vaccinate or not, an assessment of their risk/profile through consultations with their GP is the best way forward.

I think there is a lot to play out before normal crowds return to the footy in 2022....vaccinated or not.”

Aegean true what you wrote above.

It’s a personal choice for everyone of us.

Nothing is at 100% full proof.

 

[Ian4]

I'm a clearly pro vaxer but I still think other members of society should have the right to put into their bodies what they want to.
If they don't want to protect themselves & others from this isidious virus I don't understand it but I do understand why some have reservations.
They shouldn't be vilified for having that POV in spite of what the science says.
I'm must admit I'm not entirely confortably with the notion that we're dividing societies based on a jab that lets be honest is in it's early stages. It's not even approved for kids yet.
It's never been that way throughout history to divide society based on vaccines.
The vaccination is not mandatory however we're starting to mandate how people should live & move around. That concerns me somewhat.
The vaccination is my protection. If they don't want to protect themselves then that's on them.

Nah disagree. These selfish pr!cks are keeping us locked down. I would support any mandate to force vaccines. sounds harsh, and it shouldn't come to that, but the health and wellbeing of the people must come first.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Nah disagree. These selfish pr!cks are keeping us locked down. I would support any mandate to force vaccines. sounds harsh, and it shouldn't come to that, but the health and wellbeing of the people must come first.

No issue with you disagreeing as is your right.

Not exactly sure who the 'people' are that you're referring to if vaccines are available to everyone who wants it. That's the protection.

 

[eZyT]

Nah disagree. These selfish pr!cks are keeping us locked down. I would support any mandate to force vaccines. sounds harsh, and it shouldn't come to that, but the health and wellbeing of the people must come first.

i reckon 2021 should be your last chance to get an intramuscular vaccination,

then its mandatory ocular delivery

 

[Giardiasis]

Nah disagree. These selfish pr!cks are keeping us locked down. I would support any mandate to force vaccines. sounds harsh, and it shouldn't come to that, but the health and wellbeing of the people must come first.

The government you support is keeping you locked down, no-one else. It is selfish to force others to manage your health risk for you not to mention evil. If you don't like the risk of getting sick, stay home and live in a bubble.

 

[tigertim]

Anti-vaxxers just peddle one bullsh*t excuse after another as a reason not to get vaccinated. None of them stand up to any semblance of scrutiny. Happy for them to be vilified and happy for them to be excluded from anything when life somewhat returns to normal.

View attachment 13380

How does one know they can trust their own immune system?

 

[Tigers of Old]

With kids not being able to be vaccinated but able to carry the virus, will they be allowed to attend games?

 

[Disco]

With kids not being able to be vaccinated but able to carry the virus, will they be allowed to attend games?

It seems like this is in the detail of the NSW "roadmap" released today. Unvaccinated kids under 16 to attend venues with vaccinated parents.

 

[Tigers of Old]

It seems like this is in the detail of the NSW "roadmap" released today. Unvaccinated kids under 16 to attend venues with vaccinated parents.

So they won't be able to give it to their parents (possibly) but they can to other kids. Ok.
Murky.

 

[Disco]

So they won't be able to give it to their parents (possibly) but they can to other kids. Ok.
Murky.

What about my kids who are aged under 16, but aren't vaccinated?​

Once the rate hits 70 per cent, non-vaccinated young people aged under 16 will be able to access all outdoor settings but will only be able to visit indoor venues with members of their household.

 

[Tigers of Old]

What about my kids who are aged under 16, but aren't vaccinated?​

Once the rate hits 70 per cent, non-vaccinated young people aged under 16 will be able to access all outdoor settings but will only be able to visit indoor venues with members of their household.

That sounds easy to police at the footy.

Appreciate the info Disco.

 

[Bunnerz]

id say yes

 

[Number8]

For those not aware, there's a sad but satisfying thread for just this purpose: https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

Fascinating and heart-wrenching. Very hard to read at times.

Makes me wonder if there are any published studies demonstrating a strong correlation between an anti-vaxx stance and a particular socio-demographic profile and/or religious disposition.

The subjects in the Reddit thread appear to have some notably consistent traits.

Including regret.

 

[glantone]

Simple........ Time travel

HAHAHAHA!!!!!! Of course!
Also explains how that viking got to Capitol Hill last year.

 

[AngryAnt]

To clarify, the term "breakthrough infections" refers to vaccinated individuals who have been infected with SARS-Cov-2. So yes this study would indeed suggest that vaccinated individuals do have high viral loads and thus are potentially responsible for ongoing transmission of the virus. In other words, they may not develop the COVID-19 disease, but they are able to transmit the virus!

Minor correction - a "break-through" infection is when a person tests positive to Covid 14 days after vaccination. IF it does happen, then yes, a vaxxed person with Covid symptoms is just as contagious as a non-vaxxed person with symptoms. The belief is still that asymptomatic "break-through" infected people are still a much lower risk of transmission than non-vaxxed people. The study cited was also a small sample, but there is work going into this area now.

There's an excellent MIT article here which discusses transmissibility (as in do vaccines limit it). The real world data suggests, yes it does. One through limiting infection, the second through reducing infectious period time length and virility. Not 100%, but yes.

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

The mission of MIT is to advance knowledge and educate students in science, technology and other areas of scholarship that will best serve the nation and the world in the 21st century.

medical.mit.edu

The data is complex and is still coming in, for sure, and none of us here are medical scientists - I know we have some doctors.

Quoting from the MIT article from 11 August:

"So, should you worry that a fully vaccinated person who may have an asymptomatic breakthrough case can unknowingly transmit the virus to someone who is unvaccinated?

I would say it’s not likely, but we don’t yet know with certainty, says Dr. Meyer. “Theoretically, it may be true that people are being infected by their asymptomatic vaccinated contacts, but we’re just not seeing that clinically,” she says. “And the verdict is out on this in terms of the epidemiologic data.”"

Going back to DavidSS original point, yes the 250 times viral load is in fact a comparison between pre-Delta infections and Delta infections, so he was totally right about that.

EDIT Pfizer is now FULLY approved by the FDA with Moderna to follow soon. These will all soon be fully approved by the TGA as well. On general safety and efficacy of the vaccines the data is now in.

 

[AngryAnt]

Fascinating and heart-wrenching. Very hard to read at times.

Makes me wonder if there are any published studies demonstrating a strong correlation between an anti-vaxx stance and a particular socio-demographic profile and/or religious disposition.

The subjects in the Reddit thread appear to have some notably consistent traits.

Including regret.

They often appear to be overweight opinionated chaps wearing MAGA caps. I guess being fat is a co-morbidity issue, there must be some thin Trump supporters out there.

EDIT apparently if you have a goatee in addition to being overweight and MAGA you're basically done for

 

[DavidSSS]

I'm a clearly pro vaxer but I still think other members of society should have the right to put into their bodies what they want to.
If they don't want to protect themselves & others from this isidious virus I don't understand it but I do understand why some have reservations.
They shouldn't be vilified for having that POV in spite of what the science says.
I'm must admit I'm not entirely confortably with the notion that we're dividing societies based on a jab that lets be honest is in it's early stages. It's not even approved for kids yet.
It's never been that way throughout history to divide society based on vaccines.
The vaccination is not mandatory however we're starting to mandate how people should live & move around. That concerns me somewhat.
The vaccination is my protection. If they don't want to protect themselves then that's on them.

But it has been that way in history with vaccines. It would be at least 10 pages ago but someone linked an article from (I think) The Atlantic about how, on entering the USA back when the small pox vaccine was ramping up, you had to prove you had the vaccine or they would give you the vaccine on the spot. Plus, I have mentioned a few times how entering Australia from various countries requires (I figure this is still the case) verification of Yellow Fever vaccination. This is not unprecedented at all.

Aegean Tiger, you make some fair points, but the original post by TigerTime2 claimed that viral loads can be higher for vaccinated as opposed to unvaccinated people and cited an article which said nothing of the sort. The increased viral load is for Breakthrough Delta Variant Infections not Breakthrough Infections, there is a big difference and the article does not support implying that vaccinated people carry a higher viral load as a result of being vaccinated.

DS

 

[DavidSSS]

The government you support is keeping you locked down, no-one else. It is selfish to force others to manage your health risk for you not to mention evil. If you don't like the risk of getting sick, stay home and live in a bubble.

No, what is selfish is to refuse to take precautions (such as getting vaccinated) when the effect of not taking precautions puts other peoples' health in jeopardy.

I know you won't agree with this because there is, after all, no such thing as society or community, just individuals, in your ideology.

DS

 

[mrposhman]

What about my kids who are aged under 16, but aren't vaccinated?​

Once the rate hits 70 per cent, non-vaccinated young people aged under 16 will be able to access all outdoor settings but will only be able to visit indoor venues with members of their household.

Oh ok, so birthday parties for kids are dead unless parents of all kids show up?

I support vaccinations, I'm vaccinated myself (single dose so far), but I'm really struggling with the logic of the vaccine passport. It seems the logic of it is being used as a mechanism to force as many people to be vaccinated rather than whats its being touted as.

Herd immunity is regularly referenced, but from my non-medical background, it seems herd immunity is nonsense when regarding a vaccine that doesn't block transmission, but impacting the severity. Ie. you have 80% of the herd with the vaccine, they don't stop the 20% getting it as the theory goes so IMO herd immunity is a defunct principle when talking about Covid which is why I don't think there is a purpose to the vaccine passport.

IMO there should be a focus on 3 things.

1 - Provide vaccinations for all.
2 - Anticipate the proportion of people that will be not be vaccinated
3 - Model the impact of this on the health service

What these points allow for is, that herd immunity is defunct, and after a period of time of vaccines being available for all, you open up with NO RESTRICTIONS OR VACCINE PASSPORT REQUIREMENTS. The models that we have, will tell us what the impact will be on the health services and the government needs to be responsible for this, and ensure that the level of recruitment, training and equipment is sufficient to deal with the demand at whatever level of vaccination we get to.

Based on evidence from overseas this would indicate something like 2500 aussies in hospital with covid with around about 15% of those on ventilators and another 15-20% in ICU facilities, the rest would be dedicated Covid wards.

We have been told the entire way through the pandemic that the reason for lockdowns was to ensure that the hospital systems isn't over loaded, therefore we have dealt with this issue in 2 key ways, vaccination (reducing demand on the services by reducing the number of people that require hospital admission from Covid), resourcing (which enables the system to cope with expected demand levels following re-opening in full).

Anything else IMO is a halfway house and we need to ensure that at the end of this, a level of normality is what we are seeking. Checking in at every venue / shop etc cannot become the norm of our existence. It plays its part in a pandemic, but once this converts to being endemic in society, we ensure we are protected as much as we can, then we ensure that we have resourced adequately to deal with the level of inpatients. Once we have provided for that, normal service should resume.