Welcome to Richmond - Jayden Short | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Welcome to Richmond - Jayden Short

It’s interesting I think both dusty and shorty make their fair share of clangers at a much higher clip than the rest of the team (outside of the recently retired).

But clearly dusty makes more stuff turn into gold and wins 1:1s than shorty so we tend to overlook his errors.

I think Short had a patch where he was
finishing really well and higher efficiency vs last year he didn’t seem to hit the scoreboard as much and made more unforced errors (to my eye and without referring to stats). Shorts’ kick penetration probably also means his errors have less negative effect because there is time for the defence to adjust.
Dusty plays a much more contested game, you can't really compare inside and outside players on disp efficiency.

Need to compare like for like.

Over his career and compared with other similar HBF Short is less effective when measured on score launches and score involvements - which is a large part of the effectiveness of guys playing that extra man in defence/outlet player.

Metres gained is too simple a measure in isolation. Does him getting the ball and flaying it forward result in us scoring? That to me is a more effective measure of how well he uses the ball.

Over his career Short is measured as elite in kicks and "effective" kicks. But measured as average in score involvements and score launches.
 
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Dusty plays a much more contested game, you can't really compare inside and outside players on disp efficiency.

Need to compare like for like.

Over his career and compared with other similar HBF Short is less effective when measured on score launches and score involvements - which is a large part of the effectiveness of guys playing that extra man in defence/outlet player.

Metres gained is too simple a measure in isolation. Does him getting the ball and flaying it forward result in us scoring? That to me is a more effective measure of how well he uses the ball.

Over his career Short is measured as elite in kicks and "effective" kicks. But measured as average in score involvements and score launches.
Yep, as I've noted before, Short's kicking out of the backline is often more defensive than offensive - it gets us out of trouble rather than launches an attack (not always, of course). As big Jack likes to say, his mistakes are a long way ahead of him. I feel like his kicking is best used forward of centre when he can carry it to the goal square.

Bringing up Dusty's clangers is misleading too, given free kicks against count as clangers and umpires have an orgasm every time an opponent touches Dusty and they can pay holding the ball/illegal disposal. Dusty averages 1.4 frees against per game over his career, Short 0.5. So that accounts for basically a clanger per game difference.
 
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And that’s why your use of stats are completely meaningless when they are used to suggest Dusty is the poorer contributor.

Not sure where you got that from, or that anyone would think that.

This is where you are wrong. Short is one of the the more over hyped kicks I can recall. I’ve posted before how low he sits in score involvements and score launches for the volume of uncontested kicks he has. It’s revealing. The opposition don’t mind him having the ball in our backline.

I'm not sure about that. His score involvement rate last year was 5.4 per game, or a pretty healthy 20.7% of our total scores which was behind only Prestia and the forwards.

Score launches aren't a particularly relevant stat for him because they are chains launched by intercept possessions (which he doesn't do), free kicks (which we don't get), hitouts to advantage (unlikely) and clearances (he's outside). Hence our best three score launchers are two ruckman and our best intercept marker (Vlastuin).
 
I'm not sure about that. His score involvement rate last year was 5.4 per game, or a pretty healthy 20.7% of our total scores which was behind only Prestia and the forwards.

Score launches aren't a particularly relevant stat for him because they are chains launched by intercept possessions (which he doesn't do), free kicks (which we don't get), hitouts to advantage (unlikely) and clearances (he's outside). Hence our best three score launchers are two ruckman and our best intercept marker (Vlastuin).
Ha ha. Last year he played further forward of the ball, of course you are going to be involved in more scores!

Look at his career. Elite for kicks, average for score impact.

Compare him to other players in his role, that is the best way to measure IMO.
 
Last year he played forward ofg the ball, of course you are going to be involved in more scores!

Aren't you arguing against yourself there?

Compare him to other players in his role, that is the best way to measure IMO.

I think he stacks up pretty well against the past 4 All-Australian half backs. Saad is pretty attacking and he has him covered and not a huge amount between him and Houli.

Jayden Short Career Score Involvements: 3.7, SI%: 15.8

2022: Adam Saad 3.4, 15.4

2021: Daniel Rich 4.4, 18.9

2020: DBJ 2.9, 12.4

2019: B Houli 4.3, 17.3
 
Aren't you arguing against yourself there?



I think he stacks up pretty well against the past 4 All-Australian half backs. Saad is pretty attacking and he has him covered and not a huge amount between him and Houli.

Jayden Short Career Score Involvements: 3.7, SI%: 15.8

2022: Adam Saad 3.4, 15.4

2021: Daniel Rich 4.4, 18.9

2020: DBJ 2.9, 12.4

2019: B Houli 4.3, 17.3
How about Rioli's 2022 numbers? Seeing as though he is the man who more or less took his spot in the backline.

I too am not sure where we plug Short in this year. I prefer Rioli and Baker at HB. I prefer Kmac and Marlion on the wing, and the midfield is now stacked.
 
Rioli 2022, 4.7 SI, 17.9 SI%.

If you look at Short's best and fairest year in 2020 he went at 3.2 and 17.4 in 80% game time.
Shouldn't you look at Short's career, not his sinlgle best season? Look at his 2021 was this when you list all defenders -

5th in ave kicks.
40th on Average Score involvements (3rd at tigers for defenders behind Baker/Houli)
102nd on Ave Score Launches (last of most of the tigers defenders)

Now you could refine it further by removing those with too littlke games played but to me they are pretty damning stats.

You could have argued the opposition wanted him getting the ball.

I recall in 2021 plenty off posters noted how often he called for the ball when out of position, these stats appear to confirm that.

2023 shapes as a massive year for Short.
 
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I think he stacks up pretty well against the past 4 All-Australian half backs. Saad is pretty attacking and he has him covered and not a huge amount between him and Houli.

Jayden Short Career Score Involvements: 3.7, SI%: 15.8

2022: Adam Saad 3.4, 15.4

2021: Daniel Rich 4.4, 18.9

2020: DBJ 2.9, 12.4

2019: B Houli 4.3, 17.3
Jeezus DBJ what an anomaly. Even I'd rather Short.

Short - CD career stats for defenders - eleite for number of kicks, average for score impact. That's benchmarked.

Looking at those names, can anyone believe Nick Vlastuin only has one AA nomination?
 
Jeezus DBJ what an anomaly. Even I'd rather Short.

Short - CD career stats for defenders - eleite for number of kicks, average for score impact. That's benchmarked.

Looking at those names, can anyone believe Nick Vlastuin only has one AA nomination?
Biggest injustice in football.
Big V is one of the best defenders ive seen ever.
 
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Jeezus DBJ what an anomaly. Even I'd rather Short.

Short - CD career stats for defenders - eleite for number of kicks, average for score impact. That's benchmarked.

Looking at those names, can anyone believe Nick Vlastuin only has one AA nomination?
Unreal, isn’t it? Who would you pick first, Vlastuin, Byrne-Jones or Saad?

Vlas is so under-rated.
 
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Shouldn't you look at Short's career, not his sinlgle best season? Look at his 2021 was this when you list all defenders -

5th in ave kicks.
40th on Average Score involvements (3rd at tigers for defenders behind Baker/Houli)
102nd on Ave Score Launches (last of most of the tigers defenders)

I was trying to compare Rioli's best with Short's.

I still don't think the 2021 numbers are too bad, .1 of a score assist behind Houli (I reckon Baker spent more time up the ground).

As I said score launches are an irrelevant stat for him, they are for intercept markers, ruckman and clearance winners.
 
I was trying to compare Rioli's best with Short's.

I still don't think the 2021 numbers are too bad, .1 of a score assist behind Houli (I reckon Baker spent more time up the ground).

As I said score launches are an irrelevant stat for him, they are for intercept markers, ruckman and clearance winners.
2021
5th in ave kicks
40th in ave SI

Why? Suggests we don't end up in scoring positions when he had the ball coming out of defence as much as players in a similar role.

Careeer
Elite in ave kicks per game
Average in ave score involvements per game

Why?

He is not an elite kick. He is a long penetrating kick.

Ultimately maybe we never needed him to be an elite kick, we just wanted the ball forward quickly?

Maybe this stand rule change has put a premium on maintaining posession?
 
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I think the jury has come back with the verdict.Short the whipping boy for season 2023.
 
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No I certainly agree with others that he is no chance after a less than brownlow winning performance on a pissy suburban ground in a howling gale.

Off with his head :rotfl2
 
2021
5th in ave kicks
40th in ave SI

Why? Suggests we don't end up in scoring positions when he had the ball coming out of defence as much as players in a similar role.

Careeer
Elite in ave kicks per game
Average in ave score involvements per game

Why?

He is not an elite kick. He is a long penetrating kick.

Ultimately maybe we never needed him to be an elite kick, we just wanted the ball forward quickly.

Maybe this stand rule change has put a premium on maintaining posession?

I think you are looking for much more from him in terms of score involvement than is practical.

No defender was any better than average for score involvements in 2021. Jack Crisp led them with 4.8 from 27 disposals, Short is 3.1 from 24.6. The elite level of 5 and a bit and to above 8 is all midfielders and forwards.

Short's career disposals/score involvements is 19.9/3.7 or a score involvement every 5.38 possessions. Houli 22.2/4.3, 1 per 5.16.
 
I think you are looking for much more from him in terms of score involvement than is practical.

No defender was any better than average for score involvements in 2021. Jack Crisp led them with 4.8 from 27 disposals, Short is 3.1 from 24.6. The elite level of 5 and a bit and to above 8 is all midfielders and forwards.

Short's career disposals/score involvements is 19.9/3.7 or a score involvement every 5.38 possessions. Houli 22.2/4.3, 1 per 5.16.
No. Those stats were purely for defenders. Not everyone. I am trying to compare him with like for like players.

That's why 2022 shouldn't really be included, he played a different role for the most part.
 
2021
5th in ave kicks
40th in ave SI

Why? Suggests we don't end up in scoring positions when he had the ball coming out of defence as much as players in a similar role.

Careeer
Elite in ave kicks per game
Average in ave score involvements per game

Why?

He is not an elite kick. He is a long penetrating kick.

Ultimately maybe we never needed him to be an elite kick, we just wanted the ball forward quickly?

Maybe this stand rule change has put a premium on maintaining posession?
In fairness to Short, i reckon you are right when you maybe we just want him to move the ball quickly. and i would imagine our forward stoppage style would at times reduce his opportunity for a score involvement.

We do want him to get the ball, and use it quickly and long. But i reckon he at times go too far in the direction of chasing kicks, (ie running past for a handball getting himself into trouble), sometimes uses it too quickly when he has time, and at times bombs it long when shorter better options are available. that is what stops him being a very good user.
and then his defensive work is suspect.
 
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