Toby Greene | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Toby Greene

It's not legal.

Don't believe the propaganda.

Poor umpiring and poor commentary has conditioned us think 'it's legal but should be banned' because it's a bad look. It's a bad look because it's something we all think should not be allowed....because it isn't allowed. It doesn't need to be banned because it's already not permitted.
 
Is it only "legal" in a markin contest? What if, as others have pointed out, a player used this technique to fend off a tackler?
 
Harry said:
Is it only "legal" in a markin contest? What if, as others have pointed out, a player used this technique to fend off a tackler?

What about a flying studs up sheppard? Would prob eliminate the risk of concussion.
 
Harry said:
Is it only "legal" in a markin contest? What if, as others have pointed out, a player used this technique to fend off a tackler?

Thrusting a knee into someone's kidneys is legal in a marking contest but not so in a tackle (I wouldn't think). There's a lot of grey in this one.
 
Flying for a mark is an action that creates incidental contact. You're not so much holding a player out by instigating contact, but maintaining your balance in the act of leaping on a player or pack of players. Even then, hands in the back or on the shoulders is still not allowed.

The rules of permitted and prohibited contact are saying you can fly for a mark and make incidental contact, but you can't deliberately (and potentially dangerously) make 'hold out' contact in the back or with a part of your body not listed as permitted (for example, it spells out that you can push in the chest or in the side with open hands if the ball is withing 5m, but can't push in the back). Kicking people is clearly prohibited and there's an argument that lashing your foot out (which is what Greene does) can be deemed a kick.

In my strong opinion, the current laws already allow for an interpretation that would deny Greene doing what he did/does. However if it makes people more comfortable for it to be spelled out further then I'm ok with that too. But be prepared that if the rule says 'no studs out' that would mean flying for a mark too, which is probably why it isn't already in. The rules in their current form allow for the spirit of the game, which is - high flying marks are good (but no hands in the back) and sh!tful acts like Greene's can quite easily be ruled against with interpretations from a number of clauses (ie, you can instigate front and side contact but not with your feet, you can't kick, you can't be unduly rough, you can't perform a deliberate action that has the potential to injure - take your pick from one, some or all of these).
 
Mac said:
It's not legal.

Don't believe the propaganda.

Poor umpiring and poor commentary has conditioned us think 'it's legal but should be banned' because it's a bad look. It's a bad look because it's something we all think should not be allowed....because it isn't allowed. It doesn't need to be banned because it's already not permitted.

It isn't illegal at present.. Refer to chat this morning with King and Wheatley...
 
Mac said:
flying for a mark is an action that creates incidental contact. You're not so much holding a player out by instigating contact, but maintaining your balance in the act of leaping on a player or pack of players. Even then, hands in the back or on the shoulders is still not allowed.

The rules of permitted and prohibited contact are saying you can fly for a mark and make incidental contact, but you can't deliberately (and potentially dangerously) make 'hold out' contact in the back or with a part of your body not listed as permitted (for example, it spells out that you can push in the chest or in the side with open hands if the ball is withing 5m, but can't push in the back). Kicking people is clearly prohibited and there's an argument that lashing your foot out (which is what Greene does) can be deemed a kick.

In my strong opinion, the current laws already allow for an interpretation that would deny Greene doing what he did/does. However if it makes people more comfortable for it to be spelled out further then I'm ok with that too. But be prepared that if the rule says 'no studs out' that would mean flying for a mark too, which is probably why it isn't already in. The rules in their current form allow for the spirit of the game, which is - high flying marks are good (but no hands in the back) and sh!tful acts like Greene's can quite easily be ruled against with interpretations from a number of clauses (ie, you can instigate front and side contact but not with your feet, you can't kick, you can't be unduly rough, you can't perform a deliberate action that has the potential to injure - take your pick from one, some or all of these).
It’s be good if the AFL came out with a statement to either say this action is legal or under rule 14.5.2 it’s illegal and Greene will be penalised if he does it again.
 
Mac said:
The rules of permitted and prohibited contact are saying you can fly for a mark and make incidental contact,

By the letter of the law I would argue whether a lot of marks where knees are thrust into players backs are just incidental. In my experience in many cases it is clearly intentional. In some leagues it's actually illegal to use a knee to contact someone in a marking contest at all. The point is we are accustomed to accept it in the past so it is considered fine. A similar argument can be made for Greene's actions. I don't like what he does, I think it should be outlawed completely, but atm it is a grey area not imo covered by any law and this is why it is not being penalised by umpires. An example needs to be made of this on the field if it happens again and a free paid under the duty of care ruling that appears to have now become a major factor in fines (and suspensions).
 
Tigertough1974 said:
It isn't illegal at present.. Refer to chat this morning with King and Wheatley...

I don't really listen to him anymore - are you able to summarise? Was it just them saying so, or did they have something substantial to back it up? They could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with Gerard "let's trial rule changes during the season" Whately. The way I read the rules, there's plenty of scope to call a free kick against this action.

http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=36381723



tigerlove said:
By the letter of the law I would argue whether a lot of marks where knees are thrust into players backs are just incidental. In my experience in many cases it is clearly intentional. In some leagues it's actually illegal to use a knee to contact someone in a marking contest at all. The point is we are accustomed to accept it in the past so it is considered fine. A similar argument can be made for Greene's actions. I don't like what he does, I think it should be outlawed completely, but atm it is a grey area not imo covered by any law and this is why it is not being penalised by umpires. An example needs to be made of this on the field if it happens again and a free paid under the duty of care ruling that appears to have now become a major factor in fines (and suspensions).

I agree that in some cases particular in leagues other than AFL/VFL that a knee to the back or head would be intentional. You'd have to be pretty darn good to disguise it though. The AFL competition I would say those instances are pretty rare nowadays - so much so that Greene's actions are clearly not in the spirit of the game to the extent that everybody is talking about it.

I maintain that the current rules are such to allow for an interpretation that calls a free against this action. Deliberate out of bounds is another rule that calls for interpretation. Holding the ball too. What Greene did just hasn't been umpired well under the current rules. IMO
 
It's two actions so illegal. If he stuck a random foot out while marking that might be ok, but he lines up his opponent, kicks out then marks.

Plus it's dirty, dangerous and Toby Greene. Ideally just a warning this week but after rendering 3 magpies blind or badly injured, he gets suspended.
 
Mac said:
I agree that in some cases particular in leagues other than AFL/VFL that a knee to the back or head would be intentional. You'd have to be pretty darn good to disguise it though.

You don't have to disguise it because it is currently legal to intentionally knee someone in the back or head whilst attempting a mark.
 
Mac said:
I don't really listen to him anymore - are you able to summarise? Was it just them saying so, or did they have something substantial to back it up? They could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with Gerard "let's trial rule changes during the season" Whately. The way I read the rules, there's plenty of scope to call a free kick against this action.

http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=36381723



I agree that in some cases particular in leagues other than AFL/VFL that a knee to the back or head would be intentional. You'd have to be pretty darn good to disguise it though. The AFL competition I would say those instances are pretty rare nowadays - so much so that Greene's actions are clearly not in the spirit of the game to the extent that everybody is talking about it.

I maintain that the current rules are such to allow for an interpretation that calls a free against this action. Deliberate out of bounds is another rule that calls for interpretation. Holding the ball too. What Greene did just hasn't been umpired well under the current rules. IMO

Would seem the rules also prohibit this in the prohibited contact rule, but the AFL has already stated it is fine which is crazy.

Rule 15.4.5 (H)
"kicks or attempts to kick an opposition Player, unless contact is accidentally made whilst the Player is Kicking the football;:

Theres no way what Greene did was accidental, he was using his feet to protect the space, IMO thats a kick and therefore should be prohibited as per the rules. Potentially could also be umpired as front on contact with at least one of those (the Newman one).
 
School teacher called SEN and reckons kids already running around yard trying to kung fu each other. Haaa!
 
tigerlove said:
You don't have to disguise it because it is currently legal to intentionally knee someone in the back or head whilst attempting a mark.

No it's not.

Incidentally maybe. Intentionally, no.

"15.4.5 Prohibited Contact and Payment of Free Kicks
...
A Player makes prohibited contact with an opposition Player if the Player:
...
...
...
(i) strikes or attempts to strike an opposition Player, whether by hand, fist, arm, knee or head
...
(k) engages in rough conduct against an opposition Player which in the circumstances is unreasonable.
"



But let's go back to what is permitted. Michael Christian at his presser spoke about Greene 'protecting the space' and then waffled on about impact etc.

Let's consider 'protecting the space'.

I'm not even talking about whether it's an MRP issue or not. I'm talking about merely a free kick. In the sense of 'protecting the space', it is clear that you could ping Greene.

Prohibited contact is grey. It has to be. This discussion about kneeing someone in the head while marking proves that. It's a contact sport.

But permitted contact is not grey. It is clear and unambiguous. If you instigate contact - let's say if you're 'protecting the space', then there is strict and easy to understand definition:

" 15.4.3 Permitted Contact
Other than the prohibited contact identified under law 15.4.5, a Player may make contact with another Player:
(a) by using their hip, shoulder, chest, arms or open hand provided that the football is no more than 5m away from the Player
(b) by pushing the other Player in the chest or side of the body provided that the football is no more than 5m away from the Player
...
(e) if such contact is incidental to a Marking contest and the Player is legitimately Marking or attempting to Mark the football
..."



In protecting the space, Green instigated contacted with his foot, which is not one of the permitted methods. Free kick against Greene. (it only becomes grey if Greene's leg was already raised and Newman ran into it. But this wasn't the case - Greene intentionally thrust his foot into Newman's guts - an easy call to make)

If his action was harder and hurt the player, then you look at impact, injury, etc. and reports and fines. But as far as permitted contact goes, it is merely a free kick against him and the AFL only need to come out and say they will be cracking down on this using the existing permitted contact rules. This would stop action the pretty quickly. Just pay a free against him and we wouldn't have this hysteria over it.


(just saw your post mrposhman. Agree)
 
Mac said:
No it's not.

Incidentally maybe. Intentionally, no.

"15.4.5 Prohibited Contact and Payment of Free Kicks
...
A Player makes prohibited contact with an opposition Player if the Player:
...
...
...
(i) strikes or attempts to strike an opposition Player, whether by hand, fist, arm, knee or head
...
(k) engages in rough conduct against an opposition Player which in the circumstances is unreasonable.
"

Come on Mac, you see knees in the head and back all the time. It's expected. It's intentional. I played footy I know it's intentional. You don't go up with your knee thinking I'll just make sure I don't contact them in the head or back with the knee. You're trying to get the extra lift up by intentionally contacting with the knee. Those rules do not adequately cover this scenario. It is NOT a strike so forget point (i) and it is not considered rough conduct because it's always been an accepted action when going for a mark, therefore the circumstance is not considered unreasonable.
 
ToraToraTora said:
School teacher called SEN and reckons kids already running around yard trying to kung fu each other. Haaa!
He also said that they combat it by grabbing the leg of the person taking the mark and slamming them into the ground. Doing great things for the game is Toby.
 
tigerlove said:
Come on Mac, you see knees in the head and back all the time. It's expected. It's intentional. I played footy I know it's intentional. You don't go up with your knee thinking I'll just make sure I don't contact them in the head or back with the knee. You're trying to get the extra lift up by intentionally contacting with the knee. Those rules do not adequately cover this scenario. It is NOT a strike so forget point (i) and it is not considered rough conduct because it's always been an accepted action when going for a mark, therefore the circumstance is not considered unreasonable.

Its different though TL. As you said when going for a mark you use knees etc to gain leverage and sometimes there is contact with another player. This is allowed.

I see Christian has said that the Newman one should have been a free which I agree with. This is because there was no purpose for Greenes foot to be there, it was not used to generate momentum at all but purely to keep his opponent away, it wasn't holding to hold a player away and therefore mark the ball (that's a strength action) but was no different to a push in the chestr to keep them out of the marking contest which would have been seen as front on contact. It is also prohibited contact as you cannot kick another player, clearly the angle that Greenes leg was at was designed to kick out to stop the other player impacting the marking contest, therefore IMO should have been a free kick.
 
Now let me see if I've got this clear.

Alex Rance was slaughtered by certain members of the footy media for supposedly " bringing the game into disrepute by staging" & was fined for it.

This weasel Greene kicks out twice with his feet & gets no sanction & that's quite ok.
Forgive me if I think the system sucks.

As I've said quite a few times, Michael Christian is totally (inept) not what I really want to say but I might break the swear filter.
 
tigerlove said:
Come on Mac, you see knees in the head and back all the time. It's expected. It's intentional. I played footy I know it's intentional. You don't go up with your knee thinking I'll just make sure I don't contact them in the head or back with the knee. You're trying to get the extra lift up by intentionally contacting with the knee. Those rules do not adequately cover this scenario. It is NOT a strike so forget point (i) and it is not considered rough conduct because it's always been an accepted action when going for a mark, therefore the circumstance is not considered unreasonable.

Well, it IS a strike if it's obviously intentional. But that's why incidental contact while attempting to Mark is written in there. As you imply, it is a tough contact sport. Granted. However whether it's done all the time or not or whether it's penalised or not, whether you do it all the time or not isn't what I'm arguing. The rules clearly state that a Player may not intentionally strike someone with the knee. You might disagree with the rule or the way it's applied, but you can't disagree that it is a written rule. Because it is.

Aaaaaaanyway, we're getting off track re: Greene's foot...what do you think about the bit I wrote after "But..."?

The rules on permitted contacted allow for Greene to be pinged for a free. It's not even my opinion. The rules are clear that you could interpret his contact illegal. He instigated contacted, with his foot, in the oppo's stomach. Not permitted under the rules.

Here's a question for you - if you could ping Greene for a free kick under the current rules for what he did, would you? I think all the radio talk back going on right now suggests a lot of people would. I would. And I would cite the current rules to do so.