The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)

[HeadandShin]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

I think if we lost all our games and allowed Melbourne to beat us we were in with a great chance to get Scully. I honestly believe Freo would have rolled over to ensure Melbourne miss out on a priority pick and thus landing us 16th spot and first pick.

I get so gloomy, reading about how we should be competing to finish bottom...and we complain there's a culture problem among the players!

 

[ZeroGame]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

Why do I get a feeling of dread when I hear that we might be in line for the number 3 pick...I'm getting flashbacks to Fiora over Pavlich...

Surely history won't repeat itself.

Morabito could be a Pavlich type, he has a similar build and plays midfield

 

[Dyer'ere]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response


First, I can see a sacred cow. Time for a barbecue.

The god of all tanking disciples is WCE. (Some resort to Hawthorn.) The disciples believe that the astonishing success of the almighty West Coast Eagles is based on their willingness to bite the bullet and tank footy games when all appears lost. That's how this thread started out in terms of its appeal if not its statement.

So, as has been posted innumerably, WCE will tank the rest of the season and secure the much vaunted 2 and 4 picks. Or whatever. But hey, that didn't happen did it. So to all disciples of the WCE your god is dead.

This is why:

Suppose we lose every game from now on by ten goals. We don't profit much. We get an earlier pick in each round. The PP is gone. (In the case of WCE [all bow] it cost them pick whatever.)

But it means that our kids haven't gone on. Haven't shown as much as we might have hoped. (How does the brainstrust at WCE feel about their prospects ATM?)

We want our youngsters to star now because it means that at least some of them have a future. And we want a future now. Not a future future.

So what do you want? A handful of beans? Or a beanstalk? Do you want to tank or watch Riewoldt, Post and hmmmm... Edwards tear games apart?


FWIW I've read tanking theories on PRE for many years. We're not tanking usually. We're just *smile*. This year we are resting injured players, retiring 30yos and playing youth. Which IMO is legit tanking.

One more note. I was terrified that our 30yos would all be fit this year and with a fit Cousins and blooming Cotchin, Deledio and Tambling we'd do well. Misandry Wallace would be reappointed and 2010 would be a disaster. My message was simple - A hard rains gonna fall. I'm glad it fell early. (Time for a beanstalk reference?)

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

So, as has been posted innumerably, WCE will tank the rest of the season and secure the much vaunted 2 and 4 picks. Or whatever. But hey, that didn't happen did it. So to all disciples of the WCE your god is dead.

Amen to that, brother.

 

[GoodOne]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

I think if we lost all our games and allowed Melbourne to beat us we were in with a great chance to get Scully.

lol. Melbourne were never going to give up their priority pick. They had, what was it, 8 players out a couple of weeks back from the previous week. Said this weeks ago, Melbourne were always going to get their priority pick.

 

[mexican_radio]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

for some reason I was thinking about the draft and priority picks, and then I looked at my supercoach team. A certain Fremantle player with 12 games under his belt

Draft history: 2009 NAB AFL Rookie Draft 6th Round Pick No. 74 overall. = Greg Broughton

6 out of his last 8 games scored over 100 and 157 last week. Been a handy pickup for the Dockers. These examples aren't conclusive I know but it's an interesting case.

 

[DragicevicFan]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

lol. Melbourne were never going to give up their priority pick. They had, what was it, 8 players out a couple of weeks back from the previous week. Said this weeks ago, Melbourne were always going to get their priority pick.

Had they beaten us two weeks ago, which they should have, they'd have 4 wins now.

The Dockers dont want Melbourne to have the PP and with their young team on the road, it'd be no disgrace to see them lose to the Dees this week.

 

[GoodOne]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

Had they beaten us two weeks ago, which they should have, they'd have 4 wins now.

The Dockers dont want Melbourne to have the PP and with their young team on the road, it'd be no disgrace to see them lose to the Dees this week.

But they didn't beat us two weeks ago. I'm sure the Tigers didn't want Melbourne to have the PP either. And if it had of come down to the Dockers/Melbourne game I'd be surprised if Melbourne weren't long odds to win with the bookies.

 

[dimmauchump]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

The point is had we lost to Melbourne we would have been guaranteed the 3rd pick and maybe even 2nd. The Dees would have had 4 wins for the year, and coming up against Freo they would either have won the game and ultimately handed us 2nd pick, or they would have lost it and handed us 3rd pick. If Melbourne go out and beat Freo which will be a very good chance as they can still afford to win one more game, we basically end up 14th and get pick 4. We basically miss out on all of Scully, Trengove, Butcher and Morabito!!!!! All that for a kick after the siren win against a team that was clearly tanking all game. :

 

[Disco08]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

We dropped most of our veterans and played lots of kids. What more could have been done to try and lose? You don't think the players actually play to lose do you?

 

[meltiger]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

we basically end up 14th and get pick 4. We basically miss out on all of Scully, Trengove, Butcher and Morabito!!!!! All that for a kick after the siren win against a team that was clearly tanking all game. :

Been a while since i've been to school, and if you listen to PRE's mensa society, they would claim I probably can't count ... But doesn't pick 4 = the 4th best kid in the draft?


You nominated 4 kids above ... How do we miss out on all of them?

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Going on by all the talk re our first pic, we will have either pic 3 or 4 and definitely secure one of Trengove, Butcher or Morabito...
In all honesty pics 2 and 3 are much of a muchness we would land a young gun, i still stand by that as we would more than likely pic up either Trengove or Morabito....Gotta luagh when i hear melb can still beat freo and retain their PP, correct! but who says they're god enough to beat freo, IMO freo will beat them, as the saying goes time will tell...

Ok, hypothetically speaking melb beat freo, freo remain 15th, lets say it stayed like that...come draft time we would have say pic 4, if melb decide to pic 2 mids (scully and trengove) and freo pic morabito with pic 3, we would miss out on 1 of these 3 mids, if melb pic scully and butcher which is more than likely then we will get trengove as freo will definitely go morabito...
To simplify it all, we need freo to beat melb this week and we would be assured of either Trengove or Morabito as we would be 2nd last and have the 3rd pic.

 

[Dyer Disciple]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

Been a while since i've been to school, and if you listen to PRE's mensa society, they would claim I probably can't count ... But doesn't pick 4 = the 4th best kid in the draft?

Depends on who is picking! 8)

 

[linuscambridge]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

Suppose we lose every game from now on by ten goals. We don't profit much. We get an earlier pick in each round. The PP is gone. (In the case of WCE [all bow] it cost them pick whatever.)

But it means that our kids haven't gone on. Haven't shown as much as we might have hoped. (How does the brainstrust at WCE feel about their prospects ATM?)

We want our youngsters to star now because it means that at least some of them have a future. And we want a future now. Not a future future.




FWIW I've read tanking theories on PRE for many years. We're not tanking usually. We're just sh!t. This year we are resting injured players, retiring 30yos and playing youth. Which IMO is legit tanking.

It begs the question, who decides when to flick the switch. Who decides we have finished tanking now, our list is good enough for a tilt at the finals?

And how exactly do you do that? How do you go from being so incredibly crap that you cannot win more than 8 games out of 44, and not more than 4 a year, to suddenly mixing it with the best sides in the competition? Surely if your kids are that good and have potential to play in a premiership team it would be awful hard not to sneak 5 wins in a season.

The ingredients needed to win a flag are so much more complex than an extra couple of picks at the pointy end of the draft, and the coaches are smart enough in general to know this. Clearly a few of the teams down the bottom of the ladder are planning for the future and would be wrapt to get an extra high draft pick, but I didn't see Worsfold pulling his hair out when their PP went out the window. It happens, with a bunch of elite footballers running out on the park you have a chance of sneaking a win every time you play.

I don't believe tanking doesn't exist, but I am convinced it is significantly harder to engineer than what all the pro-tankers make out. If the Tigers hadn't of snuck in a couple of wins you can bet they would be accused of tanking. All the senior players dropped, Cotchin off for surgery, Richo put on ice for the season, has all the signs of a tank, except it didn't work!

So perhaps Melbourne are just really crap, and the Tigers although not that good either are just a few wins short of really crap. I am happy with the current approach of the match commitee, get games into the kids, move on the older players, send the injured off for surgery so they are ready for the preseason, have a look at any marginal players to see if they make the cut at years end. You could call it tanking or you could call it planning for future success. For the demons it is one, the Tigers clearly the other, but the approach is exactly the same.

 

[davidrodan]

Pros:

We get better picks
We get to play the kids
We get to cut the duds
We have an excuse for any loses
We can always refer to the future and how good we are gonna be
We don't finist 9th
We can pump up trade value of players that we wanna cut by playing them as LMID
We have the chance to rebuild quicker
We are better than what we seem

Cons:

We lose
We have to play the duds
We have the worst list in the AFL
We have no excuse for winning
We have to wait for the future to be good
We finish in the bottom 4
We can't trade any players
We have to rebuild again
We think we are better than what we are

 

[AstuteTiger]

Pros:

We get better picks
We get to play the kids
We get to cut the duds
We have an excuse for any loses
We can always refer to the future and how good we are gonna be
We don't finist 9th
We can pump up trade value of players that we wanna cut by playing them as LMID
We have the chance to rebuild quicker
We are better than what we seem

Cons:

We lose
We have to play the duds
We have the worst list in the AFL
We have no excuse for winning
We have to wait for the future to be good
We finish in the bottom 4
We can't trade any players
We have to rebuild again
We think we are better than what we are

well put DR, there are so mnay tangibles to winning late or not winning late in the season, as u say theres pros and cons, in our situation with GC and WS coming on board with so many pics we have this year to really add to our current list and lets not beat around the bush we need 7 or 8 pics like freo did last year, youth and embracing the draft is the way to go....

 

[meltiger]

youth and embracing the draft is the way to go....

A number of rejects in the St Kilda 22 this year. Several rejects won a premiership last year with Hawthorn.


They key is to manage all facets of the drafting/trading process adequately... Not just tanking for draft picks.


Trading can be beneficial when it doesn't involve spuds like McMahon

 

[Tiger Rob]

I'm not sure what I think is right re tanking or not tanking, but one thing I am 100% sure of is that continued lack of success is driving me mad - mainly for two very personal reasons.

1. My eldest son (8 year old) has been a member since the day he was born and has always been a tigers supporter (with a little encouragement from dad). As he's gotten older and understands the game better and talks to mates at school he understands (as all kids do) that winning is pretty important too. I'm getting tired of telling him that we're going to be better next year and to hang in there.
2. My youngest (4 year old) has been a member since he was born also and he's already making eyes at (uuuugh!!)......Collingwood.

How many other supporters are in the same boat? How long does Richmond think it can be a big 4 club without any on field success? Will the next generation of paying members hang around based on a promise of success that is not delivered on?

 

[the claw]

A number of rejects in the St Kilda 22 this year. Several rejects won a premiership last year with Hawthorn.


They key is to manage all facets of the drafting/trading process adequately... Not just tanking for draft picks.


Trading can be beneficial when it doesn't involve spuds like McMahon

hmm in principal i agree with this. but lets keep perspective when we talk about rejects. clarkson built a core group with youngsters and only traded when he thought the list was ready for finals. clarkson has taken just 3 retreads in his time at the club.
guerra in the psd gilham as a rookie who was an original 2nd rnd pick. was delisted by port because of an abundance of kpds. stuart dew was taken at 45 in 07. their retreads have cost them little to me there in lies the key.you always keep your early picks and trade with late and psd picks.if you can trade into an early pick and then trade into a player with that pick fine you have kept your first rounder.

stkilda under lyon has gone for a few retreads. the key here is they were already a finals side they have been regular finals team since 04. because they are in the hunt they can firstly take mature players who will only be around in the short term but may add the missing ingredient or structure that they are lacking. because they are in finals mode they can also afford to pay a high price for a player.
even in saying this the most lyon has paid for any of his retreads is pick 26 he got both dempster and schnieder with that pick. he paid with pick 43 for michael gardiner. he took farren ray and pick 48 of the wb for pick 31.

obviously the criteria is a bit different. first and foremost lets find that core of 25 30 players and then go looking for the retreads to fill what holes are left. we need to be smart about it to. the saints took both gardiner and king to shore up their ruck deficiencies in the short term but lyon was smart enough to take a young ruckman in the nd looking after the long term.

there is much to be learned and copied from other clubs but we have to stop putting the cart in front of the horse. have a well structured plan and go thru the processes that will enable that plan to come to fruition.

 

[rokin.tiger]

we've done both in the last decade.
clearly neither is working...

all i can say is that
1. i'm sick of collingwood playing finals
and
2. the thought of carlton being in the top 8 *smile* irritates me.