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The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)
- Thread starter AstuteTiger
- Start date
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
well I suppose all is well with the world when we play our heart out to win over the 8th placed team by 5 points
We would have to have the most self delusional supporters in the AFL.
well I suppose all is well with the world when we play our heart out to win over the 8th placed team by 5 points
We would have to have the most self delusional supporters in the AFL.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
I agreed with most of your thread Harry, but there is a good reason we don't have much left at Coburg. We finally have a coach who is looking to give the kids a run, so they are all playing league football. I am not suprised we look threadbare back at Coburg given the inexperienced teams we have had in lately.
As you suggest, it is what we will look like in 3 years that will go a long way to determining if we have turned a corner. An with the GC coming in, it will be harder.
Harry said:
I agreed with most of your thread Harry, but there is a good reason we don't have much left at Coburg. We finally have a coach who is looking to give the kids a run, so they are all playing league football. I am not suprised we look threadbare back at Coburg given the inexperienced teams we have had in lately.
As you suggest, it is what we will look like in 3 years that will go a long way to determining if we have turned a corner. An with the GC coming in, it will be harder.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
[quote author=MalenyTiger]
Its really quite simple - Rawlings is coaching to win cause he wants a good win/loss ratio, the players are playing to win cause many of them are playing for their futures, the selectors are selecting teams to see who should stay and who should go. This mix of objectives should lead us to beat weaker sides, possibly upset a finals pretender (like we did on the weekend) and no matter what we do we'll probably still get beaten by the good sides.
At the end of the season it could end up with either of the following scenarios or anywhere in between:
if we end up with pick 1 it's because the current players we have are crap, or Rawlings can't coach (or both) If this is the case then we'd need a swag of No. 1 picks to fix the problems.
If we end up with pick 8 at least it indicates that players who have been selected have shown something to win the majority of our remaining games and maybe Rawlings can coach (or both). If this is the case Pick 8 will not be too bad (as long as we dont get another JON or Pettifer). I would much prefer this scenario cause as Cuz said to the media after the game "winning is not everything, it is the only thing!" Those who underestimate the power of winning have probably never played the game. }
MalenyTiger i have to say :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap . This has to be (apart from the brilliant reasons i have given re culture/winning vs losing/tanking etc ;D) the best.
That is why Cuz is so important to this footy club. Its players like him that you will see our kids thrive under such as Cotch, Lids, Tambling, Foley , Collins etc and be the players and midfield group that will cause headaches to opposition clubs come next year. He has to retained and given a contract of 2 years and an option to stay on at the club in some capacity.
People really do undervalue how important winning is to this club and to this group of players. Culture and a winning one at that is EVERYTHING. You only have to look at the players faces to see how important WINNING IS. You only have to see when Cuz brought the group in half time huddle and pleaded with them to know that what he is trying to install into this young group of players is worth its weight in gold.
People who havent played sport, who havent competed just for enjoyment but for a real purpose understand that competitive streak we have inside of us. Cuz shows this in spades and that's what he is trying to teach these group of kids. You cant undervalue a winning environment. IT may be the difference between a kid wanting to stay and play at this club and be part of something big or to keep losing, finishing last every year in the hope that the player you select will be the one and lose all your good young talent.
Without the key ingridients in the mix it doesnt matter what you put in there if you havent got that right it will come out in a mess.
True that whatever happened in 2007 we would not have got Trent Cotchin but did it make a difference the years we got Fiora, Petts or JON.... I am not wanting to be disrespectful to these players but i am just making a point.
WINNING ISNT EVERYTHING, IT IS THE ONLY THING. "BEN COUSINS"
[quote author=MalenyTiger]
Its really quite simple - Rawlings is coaching to win cause he wants a good win/loss ratio, the players are playing to win cause many of them are playing for their futures, the selectors are selecting teams to see who should stay and who should go. This mix of objectives should lead us to beat weaker sides, possibly upset a finals pretender (like we did on the weekend) and no matter what we do we'll probably still get beaten by the good sides.
At the end of the season it could end up with either of the following scenarios or anywhere in between:
if we end up with pick 1 it's because the current players we have are crap, or Rawlings can't coach (or both) If this is the case then we'd need a swag of No. 1 picks to fix the problems.
If we end up with pick 8 at least it indicates that players who have been selected have shown something to win the majority of our remaining games and maybe Rawlings can coach (or both). If this is the case Pick 8 will not be too bad (as long as we dont get another JON or Pettifer). I would much prefer this scenario cause as Cuz said to the media after the game "winning is not everything, it is the only thing!" Those who underestimate the power of winning have probably never played the game. }
MalenyTiger i have to say :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap . This has to be (apart from the brilliant reasons i have given re culture/winning vs losing/tanking etc ;D) the best.
That is why Cuz is so important to this footy club. Its players like him that you will see our kids thrive under such as Cotch, Lids, Tambling, Foley , Collins etc and be the players and midfield group that will cause headaches to opposition clubs come next year. He has to retained and given a contract of 2 years and an option to stay on at the club in some capacity.
People really do undervalue how important winning is to this club and to this group of players. Culture and a winning one at that is EVERYTHING. You only have to look at the players faces to see how important WINNING IS. You only have to see when Cuz brought the group in half time huddle and pleaded with them to know that what he is trying to install into this young group of players is worth its weight in gold.
People who havent played sport, who havent competed just for enjoyment but for a real purpose understand that competitive streak we have inside of us. Cuz shows this in spades and that's what he is trying to teach these group of kids. You cant undervalue a winning environment. IT may be the difference between a kid wanting to stay and play at this club and be part of something big or to keep losing, finishing last every year in the hope that the player you select will be the one and lose all your good young talent.
Without the key ingridients in the mix it doesnt matter what you put in there if you havent got that right it will come out in a mess.
True that whatever happened in 2007 we would not have got Trent Cotchin but did it make a difference the years we got Fiora, Petts or JON.... I am not wanting to be disrespectful to these players but i am just making a point.
WINNING ISNT EVERYTHING, IT IS THE ONLY THING. "BEN COUSINS"
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
There are a few more quality young guys around. Try Foley, Collins and Moore out injured.
I still think Connors can turn it around. Browne looks likely. Was very impressed with Rance on the weekend. Raines was near all australian and second in best and fairest in his 1st full year (no dud). Cannot agree that Tuck, King, Pattison and McMahon are duds.
Harry said:
There are a few more quality young guys around. Try Foley, Collins and Moore out injured.
I still think Connors can turn it around. Browne looks likely. Was very impressed with Rance on the weekend. Raines was near all australian and second in best and fairest in his 1st full year (no dud). Cannot agree that Tuck, King, Pattison and McMahon are duds.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Tuck, King, Pattison McMahon are all duds like it or not. Rance not too far behind. If his kicking and decision making doesn't improve he is in the same bracket as JON as far as I'm concerned.
supercoach tw said:
Tuck, King, Pattison McMahon are all duds like it or not. Rance not too far behind. If his kicking and decision making doesn't improve he is in the same bracket as JON as far as I'm concerned.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
With statements like the above - You are living up to your name!
Thank God you are not in the RFC Football Department is all I can say!..........
mad_doggy911 said:
With statements like the above - You are living up to your name!
Thank God you are not in the RFC Football Department is all I can say!..........
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
if one thing is clear at all winning meaningless games at the end of every yr and not getting a crack at the cotchins of this world breeds mediocrity and instills a losing culture why because you never climb above mid range on the table.your never capable of defeating good sides.
02 03 did we use our early picks no we traded them 04 pick 1 got us deledio. 05 back up to mid table and we get jon 06 we trade out of a top 10 but still manage to snare a decent player in riewoldt sheesh wonders never cease. 07 pick 2 cotchin picks one and 2 have snared us our best players. recent history says top 3 or 5 picks are invaluable and to forgo the opportunity to get 2 in one yr becuase every second yr you win totally meaningless games to finish 9th thru 12th its just plain madness.and for what a win against teams of the ilk of melb north freo wce and an injury riddled essendon.
yep please tell me where our losing culture comes from it certainly isnt from tanking. the only time we have done so along came cotchin and how much better could it have been if we had actually used that other pick. dont you think it sad that the recruiting staff had to choose between rance and selwood when we could have had them both.
the bottoming out process is not to blame for our so called culture we havent bottomed out stupidity is the thing thats responsible for all that ails our club.
since 2001 we have embraced one draft with a view to maximising draft picks 2004. every other yr we have traded away first rounders downsized them or utilised very few picks. even the other spoon yr we traded away our pp or the benefit of that spoon at the start of the second rnd that the pp gave us.
anyway its all old ground but please dont blame tanking for our mediocrity nothing could be further from the truth. if tanking = cotchin every yr i say lets tank.
i will tell you what creates our losing culture its simple we dont have the players capable of winning enough games thru the season. not enough quality and no depth. it really is simple get the cattle, winning will take care of itself. atm we dont have the cattle and what will happen is those sides who are prepared to properly bottom out will go past us because they have had first dibs at higher quality players. this is what has always happened. nothings changed so it will happen again.
lol the one time we are accused of tanking it got us absolute quality in cotchin and should have secured another very good kid at 19..mickctiger said:
if one thing is clear at all winning meaningless games at the end of every yr and not getting a crack at the cotchins of this world breeds mediocrity and instills a losing culture why because you never climb above mid range on the table.your never capable of defeating good sides.
02 03 did we use our early picks no we traded them 04 pick 1 got us deledio. 05 back up to mid table and we get jon 06 we trade out of a top 10 but still manage to snare a decent player in riewoldt sheesh wonders never cease. 07 pick 2 cotchin picks one and 2 have snared us our best players. recent history says top 3 or 5 picks are invaluable and to forgo the opportunity to get 2 in one yr becuase every second yr you win totally meaningless games to finish 9th thru 12th its just plain madness.and for what a win against teams of the ilk of melb north freo wce and an injury riddled essendon.
yep please tell me where our losing culture comes from it certainly isnt from tanking. the only time we have done so along came cotchin and how much better could it have been if we had actually used that other pick. dont you think it sad that the recruiting staff had to choose between rance and selwood when we could have had them both.
the bottoming out process is not to blame for our so called culture we havent bottomed out stupidity is the thing thats responsible for all that ails our club.
since 2001 we have embraced one draft with a view to maximising draft picks 2004. every other yr we have traded away first rounders downsized them or utilised very few picks. even the other spoon yr we traded away our pp or the benefit of that spoon at the start of the second rnd that the pp gave us.
anyway its all old ground but please dont blame tanking for our mediocrity nothing could be further from the truth. if tanking = cotchin every yr i say lets tank.
i will tell you what creates our losing culture its simple we dont have the players capable of winning enough games thru the season. not enough quality and no depth. it really is simple get the cattle, winning will take care of itself. atm we dont have the cattle and what will happen is those sides who are prepared to properly bottom out will go past us because they have had first dibs at higher quality players. this is what has always happened. nothings changed so it will happen again.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Tanking does not create a team capable of winning a flag.
Player development and team culture does.
Sure you need the right raw material to work with and sure it would be nice to get first dibs on that raw material. However, if your player development and team culture is crap then it doesn't matter if you have the best draft picks for years on end bacuase you won't do squat.
When Clarkson took over at the Hawks and walked into the players areas and saw a table tennis table, he asked what the **** that was. When he was told it so the players could relax and have a bit of fun, he responded with , "**** that, get rid of it and put a boxing ring in its place". It set an expectation of club team culture and the player attitude and culture turned around immediately after that. Bingo --> Flag!
Sydney have had late first round draft picks for years leading up to their flag in '06 but their development of pick 50+ players has arguably been second to none. Bingo --> Flag!
The draft is only one way to get the right raw material. Trades are the other way (and this can get you developed (or patially developed) players as well) (Again the Hawks are a great example of this - sure they got Buddy and Frankenstein from the draft but they also traded for some supurb payers).
But the best way to produce a team capable of winning a flag is to develop the player list by all available means and in all areas. Raw ability simply provides a chance that the development period is likely to be less long and thus you'll see a quicker return on your investment.
Mind you - I work in IT and not in the football department of an AFL club so what the hell would I know. ;D
Thomas can go and hump the Fat Controller for all I care. Give me a win this Saturday!
Fun Ha!
Tanking does not create a team capable of winning a flag.
Player development and team culture does.
Sure you need the right raw material to work with and sure it would be nice to get first dibs on that raw material. However, if your player development and team culture is crap then it doesn't matter if you have the best draft picks for years on end bacuase you won't do squat.
When Clarkson took over at the Hawks and walked into the players areas and saw a table tennis table, he asked what the **** that was. When he was told it so the players could relax and have a bit of fun, he responded with , "**** that, get rid of it and put a boxing ring in its place". It set an expectation of club team culture and the player attitude and culture turned around immediately after that. Bingo --> Flag!
Sydney have had late first round draft picks for years leading up to their flag in '06 but their development of pick 50+ players has arguably been second to none. Bingo --> Flag!
The draft is only one way to get the right raw material. Trades are the other way (and this can get you developed (or patially developed) players as well) (Again the Hawks are a great example of this - sure they got Buddy and Frankenstein from the draft but they also traded for some supurb payers).
But the best way to produce a team capable of winning a flag is to develop the player list by all available means and in all areas. Raw ability simply provides a chance that the development period is likely to be less long and thus you'll see a quicker return on your investment.
Mind you - I work in IT and not in the football department of an AFL club so what the hell would I know. ;D
Thomas can go and hump the Fat Controller for all I care. Give me a win this Saturday!
Fun Ha!
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Melbourne, WCE or Freo were always going to finish last this year. We were never in the hunt for Skully. Only the deluded think otherwise.
frawleyudud said:
Melbourne, WCE or Freo were always going to finish last this year. We were never in the hunt for Skully. Only the deluded think otherwise.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Exactly lol - Claw and Co. seem to be confusing their dreams with reality.
With club boards, executives, coaches, fitness staff, players and so on all having their jobs hanging on results along with the supporters who rock up every week cheering for a win, and the innate competitive desire of the game, to consciously put a club in a position where they win only 4 times or less two seasons in a row is almost impossible and a Claw & Co. contrivance.
The idea that Richmond or indeed any club would purposely lose for the next two years, thus risking the jobs and reputations of all involved is fantasy and just laughable.
Claw & Co. are crying over spilt milk - our time, if there ever was one, to tank, was in either 2005 or 2008, both years following wooden spoons. That time is gone.
I have no doubt that West Coast has been tanking for several weeks because the AFL carrot is too great, but I don't think it part of some contrived master plan put in place before the 2008 season. Nor Melbourne. However if West Coast do secure a priority pick, only a few years after winning the flag, then we should riot in the streets.
These priority picks stink. It's only logical that Claw & Co. would desperately latch onto them as a pot of gold at the end of a premiership rainbow.
But reality says that this year the difference between Richmond winning and losing is maybe a pick 3 or a pick 5, possibly a pick 4 or a pick 7.
We are not, nor have we ever been, in the running for a priority at the BEGINNING of the draft, and we will not be purposely losing in 2010 and 2011 to try and get one for the 2011 draft. Time to wake up and work with what we have got, rather than indulge in fantasies.
Jason King said:
Exactly lol - Claw and Co. seem to be confusing their dreams with reality.
With club boards, executives, coaches, fitness staff, players and so on all having their jobs hanging on results along with the supporters who rock up every week cheering for a win, and the innate competitive desire of the game, to consciously put a club in a position where they win only 4 times or less two seasons in a row is almost impossible and a Claw & Co. contrivance.
The idea that Richmond or indeed any club would purposely lose for the next two years, thus risking the jobs and reputations of all involved is fantasy and just laughable.
Claw & Co. are crying over spilt milk - our time, if there ever was one, to tank, was in either 2005 or 2008, both years following wooden spoons. That time is gone.
I have no doubt that West Coast has been tanking for several weeks because the AFL carrot is too great, but I don't think it part of some contrived master plan put in place before the 2008 season. Nor Melbourne. However if West Coast do secure a priority pick, only a few years after winning the flag, then we should riot in the streets.
These priority picks stink. It's only logical that Claw & Co. would desperately latch onto them as a pot of gold at the end of a premiership rainbow.
But reality says that this year the difference between Richmond winning and losing is maybe a pick 3 or a pick 5, possibly a pick 4 or a pick 7.
We are not, nor have we ever been, in the running for a priority at the BEGINNING of the draft, and we will not be purposely losing in 2010 and 2011 to try and get one for the 2011 draft. Time to wake up and work with what we have got, rather than indulge in fantasies.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
I need a fence to sit on.
Heart says win, head says tank.
I find it impossiible to go to a game and NOT barrack for us to win. Impossible. That's what makes going to the footy fun - barracking for your team. How can you not enjoy watching deflated Bombers fans skulk out after being beaten by us? Bewdiful.
Having said that, it makes absolute sense to make the most of the draft system. Winning cultures come about with having good players, not by waving a magic wand and giving a few "win this for the Gipper" speeches. Kids aren't completely stupid - they know they have to bide their time before being able to compete against the big men.
I do think there is a case to be made against meaningless wins. However, someone made the point about this game was won with the kids being played and some "next step" performances also. I hear what the pro-tankers are saying, but I put this particular win into the meaningful basket for these reasons and the fact that we will not out tank Dees and WC this year. A 12th-14th finish will still give us the chance to pick up a quality player. If we can trade some players for picks would be great too.
I need a fence to sit on.
Heart says win, head says tank.
I find it impossiible to go to a game and NOT barrack for us to win. Impossible. That's what makes going to the footy fun - barracking for your team. How can you not enjoy watching deflated Bombers fans skulk out after being beaten by us? Bewdiful.
Having said that, it makes absolute sense to make the most of the draft system. Winning cultures come about with having good players, not by waving a magic wand and giving a few "win this for the Gipper" speeches. Kids aren't completely stupid - they know they have to bide their time before being able to compete against the big men.
I do think there is a case to be made against meaningless wins. However, someone made the point about this game was won with the kids being played and some "next step" performances also. I hear what the pro-tankers are saying, but I put this particular win into the meaningful basket for these reasons and the fact that we will not out tank Dees and WC this year. A 12th-14th finish will still give us the chance to pick up a quality player. If we can trade some players for picks would be great too.
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
Shouldve put this post in the appropriate thread, so pasted below...
Well once there were 5 with possible PP's and now theres 2 only freo and Melbourne left....1 of those 2 will forfeit there PP in the coming weeks.
Our next 3 weeks will have us slide a few places on the ladder, we have sydney, collingwood and Hawks in the next 3 weeks and we wont win any of these if we're being honest here...
RD 19
Melb V North at TD, north will win that, take them to 22 pts
Freo V Port at Subi, 70& in favour of Port (hopefully freo win)
Rd 20
Melb V Freo, 50/50 either way, if freo win unlikely at the G but will go to 20 pts
WC V North, WC to win at subi, take them to 24 pts
RD 21, Rich, North, Wc and Melb all likely to lose....Only Freo have a chance at Subi V Essendon
RD 22, Rich V WC, last game a loss and pretty much sow up pic 3 or 4
If the above happens we will be 14th, below WC and North, below north even with %, losing to sydeny, coll and hawks in the run to the finals will see us lose a lot of %, so brace urselves folks for perhaps some heavy losses (hope not but just being realistic)....Ill be there cheering as normal but i can see some hidings coming....
Shouldve put this post in the appropriate thread, so pasted below...
Well once there were 5 with possible PP's and now theres 2 only freo and Melbourne left....1 of those 2 will forfeit there PP in the coming weeks.
Our next 3 weeks will have us slide a few places on the ladder, we have sydney, collingwood and Hawks in the next 3 weeks and we wont win any of these if we're being honest here...
RD 19
Melb V North at TD, north will win that, take them to 22 pts
Freo V Port at Subi, 70& in favour of Port (hopefully freo win)
Rd 20
Melb V Freo, 50/50 either way, if freo win unlikely at the G but will go to 20 pts
WC V North, WC to win at subi, take them to 24 pts
RD 21, Rich, North, Wc and Melb all likely to lose....Only Freo have a chance at Subi V Essendon
RD 22, Rich V WC, last game a loss and pretty much sow up pic 3 or 4
If the above happens we will be 14th, below WC and North, below north even with %, losing to sydeny, coll and hawks in the run to the finals will see us lose a lot of %, so brace urselves folks for perhaps some heavy losses (hope not but just being realistic)....Ill be there cheering as normal but i can see some hidings coming....
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
I notice draft picks are back out in front again :hihi
I notice draft picks are back out in front again :hihi
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
good one Col, like ur work
The Ladder that counts at the business end of the season....
RD 18
12 Richmond 22pts 81.44%
13 West Coast 20 pts 89.07%
14 North Melb 18pts 78.58%
15 Fremantle 16pts 73.10%
16 Melbourne 12pts 74.00%
Col.W.Kurtz said:
good one Col, like ur work
The Ladder that counts at the business end of the season....
RD 18
12 Richmond 22pts 81.44%
13 West Coast 20 pts 89.07%
14 North Melb 18pts 78.58%
15 Fremantle 16pts 73.10%
16 Melbourne 12pts 74.00%
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
All we need is North to tank/lose against Melbourne to do the entire competition a favour
Shame we couldn't do it today
There's no way Melbourne can lose to Freo on the MCG the week after
Not so worried about Freo getting a PP after the 1st round, we just need to stop Melbourne getting 1 & 2
All we need is North to tank/lose against Melbourne to do the entire competition a favour
Shame we couldn't do it today
There's no way Melbourne can lose to Freo on the MCG the week after
Not so worried about Freo getting a PP after the 1st round, we just need to stop Melbourne getting 1 & 2
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
yep id like to see that, look if melb had won today or if they beat north next week they too will be on 16 pts and the RD 20 game V Freo would be a delight to watch as both melb and freo would be on 16 pts...
ZeroGame said:
yep id like to see that, look if melb had won today or if they beat north next week they too will be on 16 pts and the RD 20 game V Freo would be a delight to watch as both melb and freo would be on 16 pts...
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
if we'd won againt North (we had it) and against Port (had that one too) we would be 1 win out of the top 8 this evening
if we'd won againt North (we had it) and against Port (had that one too) we would be 1 win out of the top 8 this evening
Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins
mind boggling isnt it DDT ur right but in all honesty we would be making up the numbers, we are likely to get pic 3 or 4 worst case pic 5 from what ive seen in the coming games from all teams around where we are....An injection of youth is paramount, IMO 7 or 8 pics are needed in the ND and PSD
DirtyDogTiger said:
mind boggling isnt it DDT ur right but in all honesty we would be making up the numbers, we are likely to get pic 3 or 4 worst case pic 5 from what ive seen in the coming games from all teams around where we are....An injection of youth is paramount, IMO 7 or 8 pics are needed in the ND and PSD
