Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Just so long as it's not an 8th pick. Pettifer and JON spring to mind.
lamb22 said:
Just so long as it's not an 8th pick. Pettifer and JON spring to mind.
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The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)
- Thread starter AstuteTiger
- Start date
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
No matter how sophisticated the screening is, we will continue to see good players slipping to 10+. It is foolish to imagine that the die is cast at age 17 or 18, as everyone develops at a different rate.
As I said elsewhere, drafting is not our major problem. We need to get better at developing players.
No matter how sophisticated the screening is, we will continue to see good players slipping to 10+. It is foolish to imagine that the die is cast at age 17 or 18, as everyone develops at a different rate.
As I said elsewhere, drafting is not our major problem. We need to get better at developing players.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Rich slid LAST YEAR - its not like it was 10 years ago when clubs were still learning the caper.
Some players will always slide because of injury concerns, attitude issues, or priorities at the preceeding clubs.
mad_doggy911 said:
Rich slid LAST YEAR - its not like it was 10 years ago when clubs were still learning the caper.
Some players will always slide because of injury concerns, attitude issues, or priorities at the preceeding clubs.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
I am a pro tanker but that is a stupid comment. It has even been 12 months since Rich slipped to 7th. To say it will never happen again makes you the fool.
mad_doggy911 said:
I am a pro tanker but that is a stupid comment. It has even been 12 months since Rich slipped to 7th. To say it will never happen again makes you the fool.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
The point is if we lost the remainder of our games we would have finished last, and i have no doubt that West Coast would have lost to Melbourne giving them 5 wins and meaning they miss out on the priority selection before round 1, gifting us Pick 1 in 2009 draft and T.Scully. So for a couple of cheap thrills and wins at end of the year, we have given up another T.Cotchin. Once you can understand that, you will understand how stupid this club can get.
Forget about the 3 picks in top 20, which would also have been a bonus, but we basically had T.Scully in our hands and have given him up!!!
The point is if we lost the remainder of our games we would have finished last, and i have no doubt that West Coast would have lost to Melbourne giving them 5 wins and meaning they miss out on the priority selection before round 1, gifting us Pick 1 in 2009 draft and T.Scully. So for a couple of cheap thrills and wins at end of the year, we have given up another T.Cotchin. Once you can understand that, you will understand how stupid this club can get.
Forget about the 3 picks in top 20, which would also have been a bonus, but we basically had T.Scully in our hands and have given him up!!!
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
So west coast would lose to Melbourne but would beat us?
It was always going to be an up hill battle.
frawleyudud said:
So west coast would lose to Melbourne but would beat us?
It was always going to be an up hill battle.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
I'm with you, but just accept that most supporters wont be because they want to win games now - which is what sport is all about. It is subjective and emotional.
I believe the winning culture arguement is flawed - it after all was the undoing of Wallace.
I believe that the Hawks, StKilda and Carlton have already proved that multiple low picks work. I believe West Coast will be a force again sooner rather than later due to their blatant multi year tanking.
I believe Richmond is a club that has had no strategy on bottoming out - hence the 9th place finishes and the winning of what I would term meaningless games that will cost us picks. (Not to mention trading away valuable picks every year for as long as I can remember).
I believe that Deledio (P1), Cotchin (P2) and Tambling (P4) will be the core of our best players - which to me supports tanking by itself.
I also understand that there are many arguements that tanking is not necessary if you have good recruiting, player development and club culture - its hard to dismiss that.
However I would argue that the very best of clubs, clubs like West Coast have their cake and eat it too. They are professional and they tank. More power to them.
With that said;
I enjoyed beating the Bombers and I reckon Francis Jackson deserves some plaudits for his draft selections since 2006. Good talent spotting alleviates the need to tank to some degree!
frawleyudud said:
I'm with you, but just accept that most supporters wont be because they want to win games now - which is what sport is all about. It is subjective and emotional.
I believe the winning culture arguement is flawed - it after all was the undoing of Wallace.
I believe that the Hawks, StKilda and Carlton have already proved that multiple low picks work. I believe West Coast will be a force again sooner rather than later due to their blatant multi year tanking.
I believe Richmond is a club that has had no strategy on bottoming out - hence the 9th place finishes and the winning of what I would term meaningless games that will cost us picks. (Not to mention trading away valuable picks every year for as long as I can remember).
I believe that Deledio (P1), Cotchin (P2) and Tambling (P4) will be the core of our best players - which to me supports tanking by itself.
I also understand that there are many arguements that tanking is not necessary if you have good recruiting, player development and club culture - its hard to dismiss that.
However I would argue that the very best of clubs, clubs like West Coast have their cake and eat it too. They are professional and they tank. More power to them.
With that said;
I enjoyed beating the Bombers and I reckon Francis Jackson deserves some plaudits for his draft selections since 2006. Good talent spotting alleviates the need to tank to some degree!
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
I don't run the club so I am hardly likely to beat myself up over a lost opportunity, if that is what this really is, at the draft table. I'm a passionate supporter, I go to as many games as I can, I have an enormous personal investment in RFC, I discuss footy all week long and I'll take the bragging rights, whenever and wherever I can get them. My only beef is that I haven't had enough bragging rights ofr this year.
Don't be so Catholic. Learn to feel good when you win and bad when you lose. That is the natural order of things. Feeling guilt when you should be feeling good is a concept invented by corrupt Medieval Popes who didn't practice what they preached anyway.
If Melbourne and West Coast want to tank to pick up this player and that player, then good luck to them. Let the club go to the Draft Table in November and try to do the very best that they can.
I would rather be a Richmond supporter today after having watched Reivoldt, Edwards and Cotchin come of age yesterday than a West Coast supporter having watched his team ice the clock in the dying moments to ensure they lost. Deliberately losing games is wrong.
Some fans are hell-bent on rewarding dodgy behaviours. Give it a rest.
Go to the next Tigers game and try to enjoy it. You'll feel less bitter and twisted.
I don't run the club so I am hardly likely to beat myself up over a lost opportunity, if that is what this really is, at the draft table. I'm a passionate supporter, I go to as many games as I can, I have an enormous personal investment in RFC, I discuss footy all week long and I'll take the bragging rights, whenever and wherever I can get them. My only beef is that I haven't had enough bragging rights ofr this year.
Don't be so Catholic. Learn to feel good when you win and bad when you lose. That is the natural order of things. Feeling guilt when you should be feeling good is a concept invented by corrupt Medieval Popes who didn't practice what they preached anyway.
If Melbourne and West Coast want to tank to pick up this player and that player, then good luck to them. Let the club go to the Draft Table in November and try to do the very best that they can.
I would rather be a Richmond supporter today after having watched Reivoldt, Edwards and Cotchin come of age yesterday than a West Coast supporter having watched his team ice the clock in the dying moments to ensure they lost. Deliberately losing games is wrong.
Some fans are hell-bent on rewarding dodgy behaviours. Give it a rest.
Go to the next Tigers game and try to enjoy it. You'll feel less bitter and twisted.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
That line is exactly what i expected from most supporters. It is great to see the young kids playing well and showing something, but it would be greater if the club took the hard road for once. Your post spells out exactly the point i am trying to make. You are happy to to grab a few pointless wins to feel good about yourself. Answer me this, in 2-3 years time when Scully is ripping up the competition, will you remember these meaningless wins like we had yesterday???TOT70 said:
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
So lets see.Next year the side will be made up mostly of youngsters.Expectations will be not as high as this year.Most will have us not making the finals.I guess next year you,d want to start Tanking again to get that prized pick 4 after the GC get their lot.But wait there is more 2011 again will be made up of kids.Same Senerio lets Tank.
Dont worry by 2018 we should make the finals after all those years of Tanking. :
So lets see.Next year the side will be made up mostly of youngsters.Expectations will be not as high as this year.Most will have us not making the finals.I guess next year you,d want to start Tanking again to get that prized pick 4 after the GC get their lot.But wait there is more 2011 again will be made up of kids.Same Senerio lets Tank.
Dont worry by 2018 we should make the finals after all those years of Tanking. :
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Next year is a totally different ball game. The point is simple, we WERE CURRENTLY in a position to tank and get the picks we deseprately need. Next year we may win our first 5 games and never be in this position. Would you like me to type slower so you can understand it?? We WERE in the position to grab T.Scully, but for some useless wins we will miss out on another T.Cotchin. If we had done the same thing last year when finals were out of the equation, we would have been in with a chance of having picks 1 and 2. As i said in my previous post when Scully is ripping up the competition like Cotchin will be in 2-3 years time, you hold on to our 5 point win against and injury hit Essendon.
CptJonno2Madcow2005 said:So lets see.Next year the side will be made up mostly of youngsters.Expectations will be not as high as this year.Most will have us not making the finals.I guess next year you,d want to start Tanking again to get that prized pick 4 after the GC get their lot.But wait there is more 2011 again will be made up of kids.Same Senerio lets Tank.
Dont worry by 2018 we should make the finals after all those years of Tanking. :
Next year is a totally different ball game. The point is simple, we WERE CURRENTLY in a position to tank and get the picks we deseprately need. Next year we may win our first 5 games and never be in this position. Would you like me to type slower so you can understand it?? We WERE in the position to grab T.Scully, but for some useless wins we will miss out on another T.Cotchin. If we had done the same thing last year when finals were out of the equation, we would have been in with a chance of having picks 1 and 2. As i said in my previous post when Scully is ripping up the competition like Cotchin will be in 2-3 years time, you hold on to our 5 point win against and injury hit Essendon.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
You're joking right? The Saints are where they are because of their ability to pick the right players at recruiting time. Try these on for size: Hudghton - 15, Hayes - 11, Montagna - 37, Dal Santo - 13, Fisher - 55, Gilbert - 33. Sure they picked up Reiwoldt at 1, Koschitzke at 2 (not worth #2), Goddard #1, Ball #2 (not worth 2) but all those picks were 8 and 9 years ago (YES almost a decade ago).
If you look at the Tigers high draft picks, we've had Deledio at 1, Tambling at 4, Cotchin at 2 and consider that this was 2004, then using the same 'tanking' analogy you'd expect that in 3-4-5 years time, as long as we can continue to use our future draft picks wisely, then we will become very competitive.
This is the silly thing about this tanking talk, we have had nearly if not as many high draft picks as every other team in the AFL. So we are living proof that tanking doesnt work. Many, many more teams have won premierships out of consistent performance and wise recruiting rather than acquiring top picks year after year (which is pretty nigh impossible to do anyway unless you can build yourself a very poor list from the start - which defeats the purpose of what your trying to achieve).
maverick said:
You're joking right? The Saints are where they are because of their ability to pick the right players at recruiting time. Try these on for size: Hudghton - 15, Hayes - 11, Montagna - 37, Dal Santo - 13, Fisher - 55, Gilbert - 33. Sure they picked up Reiwoldt at 1, Koschitzke at 2 (not worth #2), Goddard #1, Ball #2 (not worth 2) but all those picks were 8 and 9 years ago (YES almost a decade ago).
If you look at the Tigers high draft picks, we've had Deledio at 1, Tambling at 4, Cotchin at 2 and consider that this was 2004, then using the same 'tanking' analogy you'd expect that in 3-4-5 years time, as long as we can continue to use our future draft picks wisely, then we will become very competitive.
This is the silly thing about this tanking talk, we have had nearly if not as many high draft picks as every other team in the AFL. So we are living proof that tanking doesnt work. Many, many more teams have won premierships out of consistent performance and wise recruiting rather than acquiring top picks year after year (which is pretty nigh impossible to do anyway unless you can build yourself a very poor list from the start - which defeats the purpose of what your trying to achieve).
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Judd,Joel Selwood,Buddy,Rich all say Hi to those #1 picks who have outperformed them.frawleyudud said:
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
What you are asking is do feel bad because Kruezer is running around playing well, or Josh Fraser, or Hasleby or Goddard?
I feel a lot worse about Franklin, Pavlich, Higgins, Clarke, Monfries and any other player that we actually had a draft pick that would've secured them but used it on someone else instead. Having said that, I am a lot more zen about Franklin now but the others make my point.
Your argument would be more valid if players like Rutten, Bock, Foley, Maxwell, Harry O'Brien and no end of others who have carved out excellent careers after being left on the shelf after the early rounds of their draft didn't exist.
Yo know what, you would be absolutely spot-on if this was the NBA and players were drafted after spending three years or so in the College system and walked into the Big Time as ready-made 21 year olds.
frawleyudud said:
What you are asking is do feel bad because Kruezer is running around playing well, or Josh Fraser, or Hasleby or Goddard?
I feel a lot worse about Franklin, Pavlich, Higgins, Clarke, Monfries and any other player that we actually had a draft pick that would've secured them but used it on someone else instead. Having said that, I am a lot more zen about Franklin now but the others make my point.
Your argument would be more valid if players like Rutten, Bock, Foley, Maxwell, Harry O'Brien and no end of others who have carved out excellent careers after being left on the shelf after the early rounds of their draft didn't exist.
Yo know what, you would be absolutely spot-on if this was the NBA and players were drafted after spending three years or so in the College system and walked into the Big Time as ready-made 21 year olds.
Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response
Mate we were never going to get Scully. Melbourne is the worst performing team this year, and not because they're tanking, because they are genuinely cr@p. Arguably (have you watched the Freo/West Coast game), West Coast arent going to win another game, their list minus their big guns is marginally better than Melbourne. So there's Picks 1,2 and 3 gone. Realistically Pick 4 would have been the earliest pick for us. Seriously the gain for us out of 'tanking' at all costs just isnt worth it. Again, if you improve your recruiting process you will get a good pick anywhere in the top 10. The likes of JON should never happen if your process is right.
frawleyudud said:
Mate we were never going to get Scully. Melbourne is the worst performing team this year, and not because they're tanking, because they are genuinely cr@p. Arguably (have you watched the Freo/West Coast game), West Coast arent going to win another game, their list minus their big guns is marginally better than Melbourne. So there's Picks 1,2 and 3 gone. Realistically Pick 4 would have been the earliest pick for us. Seriously the gain for us out of 'tanking' at all costs just isnt worth it. Again, if you improve your recruiting process you will get a good pick anywhere in the top 10. The likes of JON should never happen if your process is right.
