The Pros and Cons of Tanking (Merged)

[Stuart]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

I had a conversation with a friend recently who mentioned an idea that I thought carried a little merit.
One solution to stop tanking would be.... once a team is mathematically out of finals contention they receive their allocated place in the draft. So for example a team that is out of the finals race at say round 13, will be allocated pick 1, a week later another team is out of contention they get pick 2 & so on. Once you've been allocated your draft position, winning is winning, their would be no loss in a win. Now working it out would be very technical, but I think that as a principal it would at least stop the tanking.
If a club is losing to get out of the finals race then that club has alot more problems that what plain tanking is.

I don't know how the above would work when it comes to the 4.5 game priority pick (maybe just scrap it).... but it's an idea.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

claw has always believed that lotteries are rubbish. nothing has happened to change my mind.
claw believes there should be a committee that looks into all things about where a club has been that clubs talent pool and how long a club has been down.
take us for example.07 we got a spoon and a pp at the start of the 2nd rnd. last yr we were clearly a bottom 4 side yet finished 9th. this yr we show our true colours and go bottom 4. any moron can see that past performance and the make up of our list would entitle us to a pp at the start of the 1st rnd. we have been crucified because we tried to win as many games as possible in 07.

no an independant committee is the way to go. how we set said committee up and what lines it operates under is for others much smarter than me to work out.

You should run for parliament with phrases like that.

Footy evokes far too much emotion to leave something as important as draft picks up to subjective opinion. There are committees to set the rules, to choose the AA team, to elect people to the HOF. Their opinions rarely fail to draw stinging criticism.

How would we feel if, after finishing 16th, the committee opined that Richmond did not field its strongest side in a number of matches and was therefore not as bad as its finishing position indicated, and did not merit draft assistance, while clubs like Freo, Melbourne etc. received bonuses?

Something like this has to be formulaic, not arbitrary, so that it can be applied evenly season after season. The best solution is not necessarily the simplest, e.g. cricket's Duckworth-Lewis method is too complex for people to carry around in their heads but is otherwise a very practical system.

 

[waiting]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

My views is , to stop all this once and for all is.-

1. do away with it- the priority pick

2. lottery system i dont think would work

3. For teams that finish 9-16. Prior to the season commencing the people at AFL House have like a ballot whereby numbers 9-16 are put in a whatever and someone draws out a number (overseen and finally sealed by two other delegates- one independent(like a law firm- similar to the Brownlow).

e.g starting from last (16 ) someone draws out number 9, well that side that finished last will have pick number 9 in the draft.

e.g side that finished outside the eight , 9th and number 16th is drawn, well that side would be one lucky side by having pick 1 in the live draft.

Now before anyone starts replying and stating that this is the same as a lottery system. NO.

The way to overcome this would be to have this done prior to the season commencing that way no club knows prior the results and you take your chances season proper but playing every game to win. There will be no guarantees that finishing last will guarantee that you have pick 1 in the live draft. Dont know how well something like this will be received. Probably diddly squat chance of ever happening. Also do away with the priority pick.

My thoughts

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Mike Sheahan's added his voice to the anti-tanking chorus. Demetriou will not be pleased. How long can the AFL keep its head in the sand on this issue?

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25783692-19742,00.html

Second one this week after Malthouses one in the Australian

 

[mexican_radio]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Before we devise any alternative to priority picks, the AFL must accept what they have created, which is a FARCE. Some of the ideas here seem worth considering but alas Captain Head-In-The-Sand won't accept that anything is wrong.

edit: notice the video interview with Knights on that HS page. Comes out very strongly against tanking.

 

[davidrodan]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Seriously people how do remember the 2005 season? We played honorably and finished 12th then took JON in the draft at pick 8......... :-[ This was not a good year!

We could have re-fuelled if we won four games dishonorably with two picks of a crop that included Ryder, Clarke or Higgins.

This is called list management. Learn the rules of the game and play to them. Don't give me the Marquess of Queensbury stuff, it's a street fight remember

IIRC Clarke and Higgins both went after JON so if we got the pick and development right then we could've had a Clarke or Higgins anyways
It's easy to say in hindsight that we should've tanked, the JON pick is an extreme :'(

Not saying we shouldn't tank this year though ;D

 

[the claw]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

IIRC Clarke and Higgins both went after JON so if we got the pick and development right then we could've had a Clarke or Higgins anyways
It's easy to say in hindsight that we should've tanked, the JON pick is an extreme :'(

Not saying we shouldn't tank this year though ;D

again the thing we got wrong in 05 was we not only stuffed up the very few picks we chose to use but we put all our eggs in one basket so to speak. its common to get 3 picks wrong in a draft its i will admit to get all early picks 8 24 and 40 wrong unusual. but we only had 3 nd picks sheesh. we traded pick 55 for bowden. not one thing decent from the 05 draft bloody hell will we learn the lesson.going by the 2008 draft obviously not.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

I hope this will answer everybody's questions about the order of draft picks.

Currently, the situation is like this.

North Melbourne - 4.5 wins (No priority)
West Coast - 4 wins (Lose their 1st round priority pick if they win 1 more or draw 1)
Richmond - 3.5 wins (Lose our 2nd round priority pick if we win 1. If we draw once, we still get the priority, but may lose pick #1 depending on other results)
Melbourne - 3 wins (Lose their 1st round priority pick if they win 2 more, or win 1 and draw 1)
Fremantle - 3 wins (Lose their 2nd round priority pick if they win 2 more, or win 1 and draw 1)

Winnable games for each of the bottom 4 clubs:

West Coast - Fremantle, North Melbourne, Richmond (All at Subiaco)
Richmond - Melbourne, Sydney, West Coast (MCG, MCG, Subiaco)
Melbourne - Sydney, Richmond, North Melbourne, Fremantle (Manuka, MCG, Etihad, MCG)
Fremantle - West Coast, Port Adelaide, Melbourne (Subiaco, Subiaco, MCG)

I've bolded the teams that the teams on the left will probably beat if Richmond really does want the #1 pick and the 2nd round priority pick.

Once again, I hope this helped. ;D

thanx for that danog, good post thought id paste it into this thread....

well 1 down and 3 to go, North no longer can receive a priority pick at the start of the 2nd round...
Now all we need is Freo, WC and Melbourne to win some games and whollah! no PP's for them too, especially melb and WC who can both receive 2 PP's at the start of the 1st round and that would mean 2 pics each within the top 5 pics, cant bloody happen...

A blockbuster month of matches below not to be missed....

RD17 Freo V WC
RD 18 Rich V Melb
RD 19 North V Melb
Rd 20 Melb V Freo
RD 22 - Rich V WC

 

[Barnzy]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Unfortunately after today we won't get the P.P.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Unfortunately after today we won't get the P.P.

well we still need to win 1 more and the only game i think we can win is Melb and that is no guarentee (perhaps a draw :hihi, if WC are on 5 wins come RD22 against us they will beat us at Subi...

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Well just an update on the current voting for "late season wins" or "draft pics" (inc PP), seems the ledger is fairly in favour of finishing low and getting our hands on good early draft pics...

Draft pics (inc priority pic) 85 (54.8%)
Late Season Wins 70 (45.2%)

Total Voters: 155

If you havent voted yet, keep em coming!

 

[Harry]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

thanx for that danog, good post thought id paste it into this thread....

well 1 down and 3 to go, North no longer can receive a priority pick at the start of the 2nd round...
Now all we need is Freo, WC and Melbourne to win some games and whollah! no PP's for them too, especially melb and WC who can both receive 2 PP's at the start of the 1st round and that would mean 2 pics each within the top 5 pics, cant bloody happen...

A blockbuster month of matches below not to be missed....

RD17 Freo V WC
RD 18 Rich V Melb
RD 19 North V Melb
Rd 20 Melb V Freo
RD 22 - Rich V WC

who cares what other clubs do - if they get a priority then good luck to them.

We need to look after our own back yard, we need an early pick aswell as the priority - an extra pick in the top 20. How hard is it to trade a player for a top 20 pick? for us it's almost impossible, and here we have the chance to get one for free and we want to stuff it up with meaningless wins.

 

[AstuteTiger]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

who cares what other clubs do - if they get a priority then good luck to them.

We need to look after our own back yard, we need an early pick aswell as the priority - an extra pick in the top 20.

Harry, of course we care about WC and Melb not getting their hands on PP's, im hoping for them to get to 5 games as this will remove 2 priority pics ahead of richmonds pic, if his happens it will be better for richmond, i agree we do need an early pic and by WC and Melb hopefully forfeiting there PP's by winning 5 games this will have us a very early pic...If Melb and WC both received PP's and freo finished last or 2nd last we could quite easily have pic 5 instead of say pic 3...

If Melb and WC finished on 4 wins they would have pics 1 and 2 (priority pics), then melb pic 3 (if they finish on the bottom), freo pic 4 if they finish 2nd last and rich pic 5 on current ladder position...if WC fall below us we would then have pic 6, so u still think good luck to them if they get a PP each.

And the PP for Richmond well as u know i agree, i think u know my stance on this by starting this thread we have the oppurtunity to get ourselves 3 top 20 pics...

 

[Willo]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

Maybe the afl should introduce a new points system. Do away with the 4 points for a win, and equal points for a draw.

1 point for winning a qtr. Bonus point for winning the game.
It may stop some clubs from winning 3 qtrs and losing the game ..."by that much"
Tally the points and award PP's from there.
It would give a truer indication as to how a club is performing.

 

[tannerztigers]

Re: To win or not to win - Draft pics V late season wins

I juyst said on another thread, but after todays amazing win I would easily rather win a close one than lose it for a chance to get an extra pick, regardless of ladder position.

 

[dimmauchump]

Anti-Tankers i want a response

One simple question. I don't want your boring theories about winning culture and all that crap either. Would you rather beat Essendon, Melbourne and West Coast in 3 meaningless games or take Cotchin in the draft??? That is what we have given up this year. Had we played our cards right, Scully was ours.

 

[lukeanddad]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

Good grief Danny, just give it a rest and enjoy the win. Cotch is a genius and I love watching him.

Evidently Cyril goes ok too - in fact, I hear he's delicious - and he went about 10 picks later. (Was Joel Selwood a #1 pick? Chris Judd?)

Let's not get caught up on #1 Vs #2. Our next coach's challenge is to turn Top 20 picks into 10-year players

 

[Tony Braxton-Hicks]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

It didn't cost us Scully, it cost us a pick after the first round so using your 2007 analogy the win has cost us McMahon.

 

[lamb22]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

One simple question. I don't want your boring theories about winning culture and all that crap either. Would you rather beat Essendon, Melbourne and West Coast in 3 meaningless games or take Cotchin in the draft??? That is what we have given up this year. Had we played our cards right, Scully was ours.

I'd like to win those games and pick up a Selwood, Rich or Ryder type at 7.

 

[mad_tiggy911]

Re: Anti-Tankers i want a response

I'd like to win those games and pick up a Selwood, Rich or Ryder type at 7.

You're a fool. Not one of those types will ever slide that far again.