The Lack of Talls on Our List (Merged)

[TOT70]

in 08, with Moore, McGuane and Willy in some decent form, I don't remember an oppositions power/gorilla forward taking us to pieces. We normally got hammered by the small forwards.

I remember in 08 our three boys worked very very well together and as a result their combined output was greater than the sum of the individuals.

Agree.

Moore's shoulder injury last year was a big problem. Moore, when fit, is a quality second tall defender. We need to find someone who is a first tall defender.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

I rate Harry O'Brien higher than most. I would never play him on a true power forward such as Brown, Hall, Tredrea or Pavlich-they will go toe-to-toe and monster him, that is why Presti still gets a regular gig. He is the perfect opponent for Brad Johnson, Mickey O, Steve Johnson, Lance Franklin, Fevola, Nick Riewoldt or any other go-to man who relies on his speed to get separation from his defender so he can mark the ball out in front. Harry is one of he best exponents of countering this sort of player going around. Does that make him a starting KPP? Dunno. KPPs don't play Full-forward and full-back like they used to. Moore was very good at this in 2008 but fell away last year due to injury and Thursfield has the potential to reach this level.

We are not really arguing about height or size any more, the discussion is now about skills and traits needed to counter AFL forwards and I doubt that there is much disagreement on who has them and who hasn't. Just remember, most AFL players are on a learning curve until they are 22 or 23. Of our tall defenders, only Moore is old enough that we could argue he won't get any better. Thursfield and McGuane are still developing players, although next year will be pivotal for both, while Rance and Post are still a few seasons away from consistency.

Are you serious? Has he played on these guys? Franklin & Reiwoldt? Fevola? Crazy stuff. Presti takes Fev every time.

Nice guy is Harry and a good 3rd tall option. Provides some dash & rebound. Opponent to the stars - no thanks.

You still need a bit of height to counter the Reiwoldts & Franklins. I disagree if you think Harry O'Brien is a capable key defender for these guys.

 

[The_General]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mew

Chris Mew 189cm - 90kg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Langford
Chris Langford 193cm - 96kg

Hardly much difference between what peeople are saying Thursfield etc should get to 90-kg.

Plus, football is much quicker, and I'm sure the players need to be more agile than in those days. It's only 15ish years, but I think the game has changed immensely in the way it's played nowadays. What worked then isn't necessarily going to work now.

 

[the claw]

I rate Harry O'Brien higher than most. I would never play him on a true power forward such as Brown, Hall, Tredrea or Pavlich-they will go toe-to-toe and monster him, that is why Presti still gets a regular gig. He is the perfect opponent for Brad Johnson, Mickey O, Steve Johnson, Lance Franklin, Fevola, Nick Riewoldt or any other go-to man who relies on his speed to get separation from his defender so he can mark the ball out in front. Harry is one of he best exponents of countering this sort of player going around. Does that make him a starting KPP? Dunno. KPPs don't play Full-forward and full-back like they used to. Moore was very good at this in 2008 but fell away last year due to injury and Thursfield has the potential to reach this level.

We are not really arguing about height or size any more, the discussion is now about skills and traits needed to counter AFL forwards and I doubt that there is much disagreement on who has them and who hasn't. Just remember, most AFL players are on a learning curve until they are 22 or 23. Of our tall defenders, only Moore is old enough that we could argue he won't get any better. Thursfield and McGuane are still developing players, although next year will be pivotal for both, while Rance and Post are still a few seasons away from consistency.

hmm thursfield is 24 in april so he will play as a 24 yr old. mcguane is 23 in february. what people continually overlook when talking development is weather a player actually has the tools that can be developed.we always cop oh mcguane is still only this age or that he wll develop because hes young enough when the simple fact is he will only develop if he has the tools to develop.age does not come into it. if people are waiting for mcguane to dramatically improve they are going to be disappointed.

interestingly both mcguane and thursfield have been in our system 5 yrs moore 7yrs yet all are still only around the 85kg mark.they are lighter than most mids yet we play them as kps. unbelievable. for players who have been in the system for so long i really do have to ask are they capable of putting on more weight and size. i would say only thursfield.

 

[GoodOne]

interestingly both mcguane and thursfield have been in our system 5 yrs moore 7yrs yet all are still only around the 85kg mark.they are lighter than most mids yet we play them as kps. unbelievable. for players who have been in the system for so long i really do have to ask are they capable of putting on more weight and size. i would say only thursfield.

From reports Thursfield has apparently been putting some weight on. His development plan has apparently dictated that contrary to the Wallace plan of keeping them lean, that he concentrate on the weights room and gain weight. So think we may get some surprises there. Agree with everything about McGuane though, a battler but doesn't have the required tools that we require of him to be a consistently competitive team. We need better.

 

[The_General]

hmm thursfield is 24 in april so he will play as a 24 yr old. mcguane is 23 in february. what people continually overlook when talking development is weather a player actually has the tools that can be developed.we always cop oh mcguane is still only this age or that he wll develop because hes young enough when the simple fact is he will only develop if he has the tools to develop.age does not come into it. if people are waiting for mcguane to dramatically improve they are going to be disappointed.

interestingly both mcguane and thursfield have been in our system 5 yrs moore 7yrs yet all are still only around the 85kg mark.they are lighter than most mids yet we play them as kps. unbelievable. for players who have been in the system for so long i really do have to ask are they capable of putting on more weight and size. i would say only thursfield.

Most of our list has been kept small by request of the now departed coach allegedly. He wanted us to be fleet of foot and mobile for his running game. Make of that what you will.

 

[TigerPort]

Most of our list has been kept small by request of the now departed coach allegedly. He wanted us to be fleet of foot and mobile for his running game. Make of that what you will.

But ignoring the most important part of a running game - skills.

Go figure

 

[the claw]

Most of our list has been kept small by request of the now departed coach allegedly. He wanted us to be fleet of foot and mobile for his running game. Make of that what you will.

oh i see its terrys fault again as stated in other threads ol wallace must have been the most over worked it appears he had to run everything and definately the dumbest coach of all time. he coulkdnt see his players getting manhandled for 5 yrs please.

 

[IanG]

oh i see its terrys fault again

Well whose was it then? Beck, Jackson? They were Recruiting Managers not List Mgrs. Miller? He would have done it in conjunction with Wallace.

You realise you're running the same line as rayzorwire is doing over on bigfooty?

 

[the claw]

hmm not long ago did i hear eade say brian lake is more important to them than any other player and it was far more important to get him re-signed than getting hall.hmm how big is he again 195/104 lets see who is our kpd that is close to him oh yeah mcguane at 191/85 lol.

 

[SAF]

I would have thought that Rance at 193cm and 90kg is a better comparsion to Lake.
Post at 195cm and 88kg is also a KPD option in the future.

 

[shamekha]

hmm not long ago did i hear eade say brian lake is more important to them than any other player and it was far more important to get him re-signed than getting hall.hmm how big is he again 195/104 lets see who is our kpd that is close to him oh yeah mcguane at 191/85 lol.

Lake is also in the top 10 players in the league. These players only come along rarely "does Richo ring a bell" you should ask yourself why the Bulldogs don't play him up forward when they lack height down there.

Lake ranks up there with the best defenders and to label him as what we should get is just a daft statement considering every team would love a player of this type. Unfortunately they're not very common.

 

[GoodOne]

Lake is also in the top 10 players in the league. These players only come along rarely "does Richo ring a bell" you should ask yourself why the Bulldogs don't play him up forward when they lack height down there.

Lake ranks up there with the best defenders and to label him as what we should get is just a daft statement considering every team would love a player of this type. Unfortunately they're not very common.

Also a very late bloomer. Didn't really start stamping himself until 2007, that's a quite late maturer and very rare I'd say for someone who has turned out as classy as he has.

 

[the claw]

Lake is also in the top 10 players in the league. These players only come along rarely "does Richo ring a bell" you should ask yourself why the Bulldogs don't play him up forward when they lack height down there.

they arent very common lol every club has a lake or are looking for one or have recently had one.. post and rance size wise are a step in the right direction neither is a fb imo . rance would we have drafted him this yr what with the emphasis on footskills.
post where will he play forward or back noone has answered that one.
one may not be good enough and the other may play forward now thats planning who else is there.

seeing as how you threw richo up i wasnt talking forwards but those big power forwards are not as rare as you make out the real key is you have to draft players who have the frame and natural size to become power forwards many on here are saying no to this. though we did take griffiths this yr.
hands up do we want a fev or another richo or brown or pav or bradshaw a cloke yes a cloke he is important to them, essendon have neagle had lloyd and lucas and on and on it goes.tippett franklin roughhead.

95kg+ players who play back.does not include many kids who if they make it will go beyond 95kg.

adelaide -rutten.
brisbane- merrett
carlton - waite
collingwood - brown or brown presti
ess - sheesh they dont have one but a couple who will. pears hurley hooker gumbleton.
freo - grover johnson.
geelong - had egan scarlett while not a monster does the job.they have a few kids in their system who may.
hawthorn - croad
melb - martin warnock
nm- no real monster. but lots at about 95kg or more who are real solid buggers petrie watt firrito hansen all play kpd if need be and all are 95kg+
pa- chaplin
rich - rance 90kg currently the heaviest kpp we have. no wait we have that fantastic rookie player polak at 94kg lol.
stk - did have mcguire. dawson at 95kg couldnt call him big though.
syd - lrt, richards ,grundy,
wb not just lake but williams.
wce wilkes. mackenzie, glass. lynch has played some of his best footy at chb.

you should ask yourself why the Bulldogs don't play him up forward when they lack height down there.

why would i ask myself that.why dont geelong play scarlett forward : hes a backman wb have plenty of young talls in their system better to ask why eade has not given them a go. imo his record with developing talls is as bad as wallaces. i suppose they at least recognise there is a place for big powerful players and went and got another. and they have expended some pretty handy picks on talls over recent yrs.

Lake ranks up there with the best defenders and to label him as what we should get is just a daft statement considering every team would love a player of this type. Unfortunately they're not very common.

again they arent as uncommon as you make out and if wanting us to target a player like lake as daft well then im daft.

Also a very late bloomer. Didn't really start stamping himself until 2007, that's a quite late maturer and very rare I'd say for someone who has turned out as classy as he has.

sorry goodies that is balderdash. late bloomer what have you been watching since 04.
drafted 01. played 1 game 02. 14 03 tried forward and back went from 86 kg to 94kg. 16 04 and only missed thru suspension went from 94kg to 100kg and took on and held down fb permanently.holding his own against nearly all opponents. mate he was no slow developer he was thrown in the deep end and quickly learnt to swim.he has been an excellent consistent fb since he did his apprenticeship in 02 03 and 04.
taken at pick 71 and supposedly was to slow and had no agility to be taken earlier hes an example of why you take big kids late.

 

[Disco08]

they have expended some pretty handy picks on talls over recent yrs.

Dogs

2006 - 11 - Everitt (KPP)

2007 - 5 - Grant, arguably more of a running tall than KPP. He's 20 and 6 months and still 80kg.

2008 - 14 - Cordy (ruck), 31 - Roughead (ruck/KPF)

For picks inside the first 3 rounds ("handy picks"), that's all they've spent on talls.

Tigers

2006 - 13 - Reiwoldt (KPF)

2007 - 18 - Rance (KPD)

2008 - 8 - Vickery (ruck, KPF), 26 - Post (KPP)

2009 - 19 - Griffiths (KPF), 35 - Astbury (KPP)

That makes the score 6-4 as far as I can tell. I can't be bothered to check them all but I wonder if any team has spent as many good picks as we have on talls over the last 4 years.

 

[the claw]

Dogs

2006 - 11 - Everitt (KPP)

2007 - 5 - Grant, arguably more of a running tall than KPP. He's 20 and 6 months and still 80kg.

2008 - 14 - Cordy (ruck), 31 - Roughead (ruck/KPF)

For picks inside the first 3 rounds ("handy picks"), that's all they've spent on talls.

Tigers

2006 - 13 - Reiwoldt (KPF)

2007 - 18 - Rance (KPD)

2008 - 8 - Vickery (ruck, KPF), 26 - Post (KPP)

2009 - 19 - Griffiths (KPF), 35 - Astbury (KPP)

That makes the score 6-4 as far as I can tell. I can't be bothered to check them all but I wonder if any team has spent as many good picks as we have on talls over the last 4 years.

3 of the last 4 drafts they have used first round picks on talls like i said they have used some handy picks on talls.

people keep telling me they have had no talls well in numbers they had 18 in 09. if you want to see the effort they have made in trying to fix their deficiency
02 they used a first rounder pick 4.
03 they went the other route and used picks 20 and 34 in trades for talls.
04 they used pick 6 on a tal;l another first rounder.
pick11 in 06 and traded picks 29 and 59 for mcdougall.
pick 5 in o7 and traded 30 and 38 for hudson.
pick 14 in 08 plus 31 took welsh in the psd
09 traded what for hall.
have not included any late picks rookies like oshea yep i think they have used up some decent picks in an attempt to fix their tall problems.5 first rounders in how many yrs.

 

[TigerForce]

Echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, ech, ec, e....

 

[TOT70]

3 of the last 4 drafts they have used first round picks on talls like i said they have used some handy picks on talls.

people keep telling me they have had no talls well in numbers they had 18 in 09. if you want to see the effort they have made in trying to fix their deficiency
02 they used a first rounder pick 4.
03 they went the other route and used picks 20 and 34 in trades for talls.
04 they used pick 6 on a tal;l another first rounder.
pick11 in 06 and traded picks 29 and 59 for mcdougall.
pick 5 in o7 and traded 30 and 38 for hudson.
pick 14 in 08 plus 31 took welsh in the psd
09 traded what for hall.
have not included any late picks rookies like oshea yep i think they have used up some decent picks in an attempt to fix their tall problems.5 first rounders in how many yrs.

...................And this is all good in ClawWorld?

02 wasted pick 4 on Tim Walsh dud bigger dud than JON
03 Traded for Steven Koops dud and Adam Morgan dud how many games between them for the Bullies that's right 11 for Koops and 14 for Morgan.
04 pick 6 Tom Willimas pick 6 too early he would have been around for their next rounder passed on Franklin too with their previous pick.
06 Everitt OK traded 2 picks for McDougall dud who was running that show Miller how many games McDougall for Bullies thats right 5.
07 Grant 192 80 kgs that's not a tall thats a coathanger traded two picks for Hudson could have got a ruckman in the PSD Steven King was available why trade.
08 Cordy another coathanger Welsh 188 89 not a tall
now 09 trade for Hall 32 isn't he retired who gave him a two-year contract

btw,you left out the trade for Peter Street, Rawlings in the PSD and Wells and Baird all gone all duds. The only half decent talls they have picked up is this period is Dale Morris.

Mate, I don't mind you ranting from time to time and it is the festive season so we all appreciate a good laugh but, seriously, if Richmond had done all of this you would be having conniption fits. Umpteen trades, a 30 year old in the PSD, an always injured CHB and two of the lightest footballers for their height in the AFL.

You're just taking the urine now.

 

[GoodOne]

sorry goodies that is balderdash. late bloomer what have you been watching since 04.
drafted 01. played 1 game 02. 14 03 tried forward and back went from 86 kg to 94kg. 16 04 and only missed thru suspension went from 94kg to 100kg and took on and held down fb permanently.holding his own against nearly all opponents. mate he was no slow developer he was thrown in the deep end and quickly learnt to swim.he has been an excellent consistent fb since he did his apprenticeship in 02 03 and 04.
taken at pick 71 and supposedly was to slow and had no agility to be taken earlier hes an example of why you take big kids late.

Im talking about his performance on the ground, not his ability to put on weight. If weight was the ultimate judge of performance then we'd be better off trawling fast food joints for talent.

Lake was ordinary in his early years and I stand by my comment that he only really stamped himself as a consistent quality player in 2007 (showed good signs though in 2006). That's 26 years old. If he were at the Tigers during his apprenticeship I have no doubt you would have been calling for his axing well before then (as I probably would have).

 

[Bill James]

Jogging round the boundary line my friends. Get to the centre circle of the issue.

Its pretty simple in the last decade we have run 3-4 talls less (195cm) than virtually all the other teams. Some teams had 6-8 more.

Claw has been on the money for years on this issue but he hasn't helped his case this year by bleating about the quality of the >195cm we have taken.

Can't have it both ways. If you want some you have to draft some.