The Lack of Talls on Our List (Merged)

[TOT70]

I am talking about the Hawks of the 80's - backlines containing Langford/Mew in the key posts and Ayres/Collins/Kennedy/Schwab/Greene/Morris in pockets and flanks.

Nice example.

The goal-to goal line of that great team consisted of Langford at Full back (193 cm), Mew at CHB, (189 cm), Brereton at CHF (186cm) and Dunstall at Full-forward (188cm). All of them were well over 90 kgs. They certainly weren't the tallest group going around at the time, most of them regularly conceded height to their opponents, but they rarely conceded weight, especially Dunstall. There were plenty of similar-sized talls around them on the flanks and in the pockets, such as Russell Morris, Paul Dear, Paul Abbott, Andrew Gowers and others at various times, but they were the mainstays.

 

[TOT70]

Exactly - our "tall" backs are not big enough and will never be big enough. McGuane/Moore/Thursfield may be bulking up but to what - 85kg. Getting them to 95kg would seriously impact upon other areas of their game. Upgrading should be a priority. At least Grimes/Post (it appears he may be played at CHB this year) Rance (extremely unlikley to makle a KPP IMO) will have the physical capability.

So when you argue for "big" you are not arguing for "tall," is that right?

It will be interesting to see what playing weights Moore, McGuane and Thursfield are at this year. From memory, they were all listed at around 86 or so kg in last year's AFL Handbook, for what that is worth. I agree that they need to be at least 90 if they are to hold down these spots regularly. That is achievable.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Nice example.

The goal-to goal line of that great team consisted of Langford at Full back (193 cm), Mew at CHB, (189 cm), Brereton at CHF (186cm) and Dunstall at Full-forward (188cm). All of them were well over 90 kgs. They certainly weren't the tallest group going around at the time, most of them regularly conceded height to their opponents, but they rarely conceded weight, especially Dunstall. There were plenty of similar-sized talls around them on the flanks and in the pockets, such as Russell Morris, Paul Dear, Paul Abbott, Andrew Gowers and others at various times, but they were the mainstays.

What were average heights of players 20-25 years ago? Fair change since then.

Langford was a super physical specimen, Mew beutifully balanced. Actually would have guessed that Mew was taller than Langford. Mew would have had a height advantage on many of his opponents

Are you saying you think McGuane/Moore/thursfield would do OK on a Brereton/Dunstall? LOL

 

[Disco08]

Disco, rate your posting but that is outrageous.

BCL, I didn't say talls aren't important, I only sid I think Brisbane would have won without Brown. I didn't say a thing to suggest I don't rate the importance of strong key backs because it's obvious that a common theme amongst almost all good teams is a solid defense. In other words, aside from saying what I said was outrageous, I agree entirely.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

So when you argue for "big" you are not arguing for "tall," is that right?

It will be interesting to see what playing weights Moore, McGuane and Thursfield are at this year. From memory, they were all listed at around 86 or so kg in last year's AFL Handbook, for what that is worth. I agree that they need to be at least 90 if they are to hold down these spots regularly. That is achievable.

Would love both. With agility.

Hard to see them getting over 90kg without serious impacts on their mobility/agility

You keep playing on bigger guys and the body will soon show it

It's like when Harry O'Brien or Josh Gibson play the key posts, they eventually get exposed for size. Neither are long-term key position players.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

BCL, I didn't say talls aren't important, I only sid I think Brisbane would have won without Brown. I didn't say a thing to suggest I don't rate the importance of strong key backs because it's obvious that a common theme amongst almost all good teams is a solid defense. In other words, aside from saying what I said was outrageous, I agree entirely.

IMO Brown has some extra qualities that only champions have that make him pretty irreplaceable

 

[shamekha]

i think everyone will be suprised at the weight our players will put on over the next year or so. i spoke with the weights coach and their is a real emphasis on weight gain, which wasn't there in the last years.

 

[Disco08]

IMO Brown has some extra qualities that only champions have that make him pretty irreplaceable

Irreplacable is hard to argue IMO. The Lions midfield and defense was the equal of the Cats' and Eagles' so it's hard to say they wouldn't have been just as succesful with say Lynch or Mooney in Brown's place, yet these guys aren't in the same league as him. Furthermore plenty of gun key forwards have been a part of some spectacularly unseccesful teams.

 

[IanG]

Brown was very young in those premiership wins. Weren't they his 2nd, 3rd and 4th years? Lynch was more valuable at the time as the fwd target to aim for which kept them straight and direct.

 

[shamekha]

i think as far as the Brisbane forward setup during the premiership years, i do believe it was Lynch and Bradshaw in the forward line the majority of the time.

Brown started maturing as a player during the 2004 season but it was probably 2005 when he took the next step as a player and became elite.

 

[shamekha]

IMO Brown has some extra qualities that only champions have that make him pretty irreplaceable

Everyones replaceable

 

[TOT70]

What were average heights of players 20-25 years ago? Fair change since then.

Langford was a super physical specimen, Mew beutifully balanced. Actually would have guessed that Mew was taller than Langford. Mew would have had a height advantage on many of his opponents

Are you saying you think McGuane/Moore/thursfield would do OK on a Brereton/Dunstall? LOL

My recollection of Mew is that he was not dissimilar to Craig Bolton, strong, wiry and very quick with excellent marking and spoiling technique. Thursfield plays a similar style. Mew would have played against a bigger opponent in most games.

Langford started out as a wingman, played a bit in the ruck and finally settled into full-back due to his poise and decision-making. I was at a function where Allan Jeans spoke at length about his backline years ago and one of his main points was how much the defence improved when he replaced Russell Morris with Langford at full-back. Morris lacked poise and stuttered around looking for options and confusing team-mates every time he got the ball in his hands, whereas Langford didn't. They were very similar players in many other respects.

That's the difference between, say McGuane, and someone like Bolton, Leppitsch, James Clement, Scarlett or even Harry O'Brien. How many times have we seen our backline players unsure of whether they should be going or staying and they end up turning it over because the guy with the ball can't decide what to do with it? It has nothing to do with physical attributes and everything to do with mental attributes. I'm pretty sure that is what Leysy and others have been trying to say. Replacing our defenders with bigger guys will achieve nothing.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Irreplacable is hard to argue IMO. The Lions midfield and defense was the equal of the Cats' and Eagles' so it's hard to say they wouldn't have been just as succesful with say Lynch or Mooney in Brown's place, yet these guys aren't in the same league as him. Furthermore plenty of gun key forwards have been a part of some spectacularly unseccesful teams.

RICHOOOO!!!

 

[Big Cat Lover]

My recollection of Mew is that he was not dissimilar to Craig Bolton, strong, wiry and very quick with excellent marking and spoiling technique. Thursfield plays a similar style. Mew would have played against a bigger opponent in most games.

Langford started out as a wingman, played a bit in the ruck and finally settled into full-back due to his poise and decision-making. I was at a function where Allan Jeans spoke at length about his backline years ago and one of his main points was how much the defence improved when he replaced Russell Morris with Langford at full-back. Morris lacked poise and stuttered around looking for options and confusing team-mates every time he got the ball in his hands, whereas Langford didn't. They were very similar players in many other respects.

That's the difference between, say McGuane, and someone like Bolton, Leppitsch, James Clement, Scarlett or even Harry O'Brien. How many times have we seen our backline players unsure of whether they should be going or staying and they end up turning it over because the guy with the ball can't decide what to do with it? It has nothing to do with physical attributes and everything to do with mental attributes. I'm pretty sure that is what Leysy and others have been trying to say. Replacing our defenders with bigger guys will achieve nothing.

So it's not just they are weeds its that they are stupid as well? Now we are getting somewhere.

(Look out for the posts blaming the rest of the side for not giving them options)

If you think Harry O'brien can be a starting key defender you've got rocks in your head. Clement more often played on the smaller forwards.

I have argued they should be replaced since I started posting here last year. 4 of our back 6 could be replaced (excepting Moore & Thursfield) and I'd be a lot happier. Its populated with puny unskilled poor decision-makers. King/McGuane/Polo/Newman. Hardly intimidating.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Irreplacable is hard to argue IMO. The Lions midfield and defense was the equal of the Cats' and Eagles' so it's hard to say they wouldn't have been just as succesful with say Lynch or Mooney in Brown's place, yet these guys aren't in the same league as him. Furthermore plenty of gun key forwards have been a part of some spectacularly unseccesful teams.

Pavlich

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Irreplacable is hard to argue IMO. The Lions midfield and defense was the equal of the Cats' and Eagles' so it's hard to say they wouldn't have been just as succesful with say Lynch or Mooney in Brown's place, yet these guys aren't in the same league as him. Furthermore plenty of gun key forwards have been a part of some spectacularly unseccesful teams.

Lockett

 

[evo]

i think everyone will be suprised at the weight our players will put on over the next year or so. i spoke with the weights coach and their is a real emphasis on weight gain, which wasn't there in the last years.

That's good to hear if they actually deliver . Long overdue.

 

[TOT70]

If you think Harry O'brien can be a starting key defender you've got rocks in your head. Clement more often played on the smaller forwards.

I rate Harry O'Brien higher than most. I would never play him on a true power forward such as Brown, Hall, Tredrea or Pavlich-they will go toe-to-toe and monster him, that is why Presti still gets a regular gig. He is the perfect opponent for Brad Johnson, Mickey O, Steve Johnson, Lance Franklin, Fevola, Nick Riewoldt or any other go-to man who relies on his speed to get separation from his defender so he can mark the ball out in front. Harry is one of he best exponents of countering this sort of player going around. Does that make him a starting KPP? Dunno. KPPs don't play Full-forward and full-back like they used to. Moore was very good at this in 2008 but fell away last year due to injury and Thursfield has the potential to reach this level.

We are not really arguing about height or size any more, the discussion is now about skills and traits needed to counter AFL forwards and I doubt that there is much disagreement on who has them and who hasn't. Just remember, most AFL players are on a learning curve until they are 22 or 23. Of our tall defenders, only Moore is old enough that we could argue he won't get any better. Thursfield and McGuane are still developing players, although next year will be pivotal for both, while Rance and Post are still a few seasons away from consistency.

 

[josey]

We are not really arguing about height or size any more, the discussion is now about skills and traits needed to counter AFL forwards and I doubt that there is much disagreement on who has them and who hasn't. Just remember, most AFL players are on a learning curve until they are 22 or 23. Of our tall defenders, only Moore is old enough that we could argue he won't get any better. Thursfield and McGuane are still developing players, although next year will be pivotal for both, while Rance and Post are still a few seasons away from consistency.

While we are in the position of developing an AFL standard back six, guys like Thursfield, Moore and Mcguane will be invaluable.

Moore and Thursfield especially have the capacity to play all most types, everyone bar the real big boys. IMO this allows us to get games into Post, Rance and even Astbury. They can play play key back, knowing they have cover if things go pear shaped.

The good sides have numerous guys who can cover the key spots. In the GF last year Geelong had Scarlett, Taylor, Harley, Milburn and Mackie while St Kilda had Dawson, Fisher, Gilbert and Blake. All of these defenders have the ability to play on a variety of sizes. It is about developing a group that have the capacity to cover whatever situation they are faced with. These guys can match it defensively as they have the required speed agility and body mass necessary. In Geelongs case they also have the skills and football smarts to be elite.

We now have young guys that have the potential to match it physically, time will tell as to whether they are good enough. We are in the right track IMO.

 

[Baloo]

in 08, with Moore, McGuane and Willy in some decent form, I don't remember an oppositions power/gorilla forward taking us to pieces. We normally got hammered by the small forwards.

I remember in 08 our three boys worked very very well together and as a result their combined output was greater than the sum of the individuals.