Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Talking Politics

Azza said:
Immaterial to the fact that the union threat by Howard is a scare tactic.
Click to expand...

Immaterial?
Seeing that....what is it...15% of the population is in a union, but 70% of the party that will most likely be governing this country is in a union....that seems a bit disproportionate to me.

How can pointing this fact out be a scare tactic?
And how can such a lop-sided figure be 'immaterial', when we are going to have these people running this country?

Time to take the head out of the sand Azza...
 
Liverpool said:
Immaterial?
Seeing that....what is it...15% of the population is in a union, but 70% of the party that will most likely be governing this country is in a union....that seems a bit disproportionate to me.

How can pointing this fact out be a scare tactic?
And how can such a lop-sided figure be 'immaterial', when we are going to have these people running this country?

Time to take the head out of the sand Azza...
Click to expand...

You're shifting ground somewhat. I was quoting your reference to the union ad campaign as being immaterial, now you've changed it to the union membership of government.

However, I'll let that slide. The Hawke Keating government demonstrated that a union influence doesn't stop decisions being made for the good of the whole economy. Rudd is clearly more right wing economically than Hawke at least. Therefore the union-influence scare tactic is exactly that.
 
And what percentage earn an income that is comparable to the rest of us? Very low I'd say.

expecting politicians to have empathy with the rest of the population is ridiculous. Remember when hawke didnt have any idea how much a pot of beer or a liter of milk cost?
 
mld said:
What percentage of the population are lawyers?
Click to expand...

Please mld...you surely aren't going to compare the percentage of lawyers in the Libs, with the percentage of union members in the ALP, are you?

Lawyers don't have a big say over what happens out there in business...however, unions do have a BIG say, especially with the ALP backing them (or is that supposed to be the other way round? ;))

Azza said:
You're shifting ground somewhat. I was quoting your reference to the union ad campaign as being immaterial, now you've changed it to the union membership of government.
However, I'll let that slide. The Hawke Keating government demonstrated that a union influence doesn't stop decisions being made for the good of the whole economy. Rudd is clearly more right wing economically than Hawke at least. Therefore the union-influence scare tactic is exactly that.
Click to expand...

I haven't shifted anything Azza.
Whether it is the percentage of unionites in the ALP compared to the percentage out there in 'mainstream Australia'....or whether Howard has raised this disproportionate figure (which you class as a 'scare tactic').....either way, it is not a scare tactic, but fact.

And how do you know what Rudd is?
It's very easy for him to keep using another one of his cliches "economic conservative" hourly on TV and radio, because the ALP have got a bad track record when it comes to ecomonic (mis)management of the country, whether it be at state level, or federal level.
Even with his big lead in the polls, and that of his party....the one poll he still fails in is what leader/party can manage the economy better, Libs or ALP...and he has fallen short each time.
It is the one positive for the Libs at the moment....so Rudd is trying to contain this from spreading to other polls, by using his "economic conservative" slogan.
But with his agreeance on policy after policy that the Government have put forward, we really don't know whether he is really an 'economic conservative' as he keeps saying ad-nauseum, or whether this is just another attempt to camouflage his true economic management skills.
 
Liverpool said:
Please mld...you surely aren't going to compare the percentage of lawyers in the Libs, with the percentage of union members in the ALP, are you?
Click to expand...

No I'm not, or I would have done so. I am pointing out that many professions are over-represented in politics compared to the general population, so it is meaningless to point it out for a single profession.

Rudd did have a good point in the debate though, 70% of Liberal ministers wanted Howard to step down before the election.
 
Liverpool said:
I haven't shifted anything Azza.
Whether it is the percentage of unionites in the ALP compared to the percentage out there in 'mainstream Australia'....or whether Howard has raised this disproportionate figure (which you class as a 'scare tactic').....either way, it is not a scare tactic, but fact.

And how do you know what Rudd is?
It's very easy for him to keep using another one of his cliches "economic conservative" hourly on TV and radio, because the ALP have got a bad track record when it comes to ecomonic (mis)management of the country, whether it be at state level, or federal level.
Even with his big lead in the polls, and that of his party....the one poll he still fails in is what leader/party can manage the economy better, Libs or ALP...and he has fallen short each time.
It is the one positive for the Libs at the moment....so Rudd is trying to contain this from spreading to other polls, by using his "economic conservative" slogan.
But with his agreeance on policy after policy that the Government have put forward, we really don't know whether he is really an 'economic conservative' as he keeps saying ad-nauseum, or whether this is just another attempt to camouflage his true economic management skills.
Click to expand...

If you re-read my quotes, you'll see I was referring to your reference to the union ad campaign as being immaterial, not to the govt numbers.

Come-on, are you saying Howard wasn't trying to scare voters with the reference to union members? That he's just raising this as a matter of interest with no potential negative impacts. Of course it's a scare campaign. And one which the most recent long period of Labor govt doesn't bear-out.

My judgement on Rudd's economics is based on his recent reply to the Howard tax breaks. I would actually prefer Rudd to focus on infrastructure rather than deliver tax breaks, so my judgement that he's an economic conservative is far from wishful thinking.

But I agree it's hard to know where Rudd stands on a lot of issues. I understand the tactics he's using, and if they get Howard out of power then it's a good thing. But he's already pushed too far down the conservative road for my liking.
 
'Economic conservative' is such a silly term, but it doesn't apply to either side. 'Economic populists' would be more accurate.
 
The Unions on the left and the HR Nichols Society on the right.

We all know the unions - they have done great things for the Australian Worker and their families - they have also stepped outside their boundaries of workplace related issues on occassion - this should not be applauded - their job is to solely look after work place issues.

Who the bloody hell is the HR Nichols Society?

They are a society of individuals which commenced in 1986 to provide the opposite view on Industrial Relations to that of the Union movement. Among their founders is one Peter Costello.

The not written but obvious objective of this society is to free up the labour market in such a manner to make each worker negotiate with his/her employer a contract for work (now called AWA by the Howard Government). The consequence of which was to take the powerful negotiating stance of the workers unions away from him/her and leave him/her stranded and at the beck and call of the employer's who would be then in a much stronger negotiating position.


http://www.hrnicholls.com.au/nicholls/nichvol1/contents.htm

"The H R Nicholls Society was established at a seminar which took place at the CWA Hostel in Toorak, Victoria, on the weekend of 19th February - 2nd March 1986. The Seminar was organised by four people, John Stone, then a financial and economic consultant, Peter Costello, Barrister at Law, Barrie Purvis, industrial advocate, and Ray Evans, an executive with WMC Ltd.

The purpose of the seminar was to discuss the Report of the Committee of Review into Australian Industrial Relations Law and Systems (the "Hancock Report") and the prospects for Commonwealth legislation based on that Report; the significance of the Mudginberri dispute; the economic impact of our industrial relations practices in Australia; and similar matters.

Some forty people attended the seminar. The papers presented were subsequently published in a volume entitled "Arbitration in Contempt", which was launched by Professor Geoffrey Blainey, with considerable publicity, in September 1986. That volume is now almost out of print.

At the seminar it was agreed to incorporate the Society and John Stone was elected as the foundation President."

Now you can see who is pulling the strings on the IR Policy of the Howard Government - a virtual clan of big businessman who want to control the labour market to increase their own profits - they do not and never will have as their main consideration the Australian worker or family person or individual - all they want is to line the pockets of their shareholders (which is usually themselves).

Profit is not a dirty word - but it can be if it is made at the expense of others ill-rewarded hard work in our society.

Now if you are a member of the HR Nichols society - good luck to you because you are rubbing shoulders with the elite in Australian Business - but - my guess is if you are reading this you are not and you have had their spin doctoring mesmerise you for their own good and not yours.

How many current Coalition parliamentarians in the Howard Government are members of the HR Nichols Society? For IMO this society is more scary than any union movement. Why? Because it acts for the elite few in Australian Business and not for all Australians......
 
What's so scary about the Unions anyway?

Seeing that there are more employees than employers, you'd think this "scare tactic" would have the opposite effect.
 
To suggest the HR Nichols society has anywhere as much influence on pretty much anything as trade unions is folly.
 
That John Stone, was he head of the Reserve Bank and also a minister under Fraser? Like finance minister?
 
The focus on worker productivity to the detriment of time for family and leisure coupled with a continual push to minimise wages to me indicates policy failure on both sides of politics. We're never going to compete with developing countries in these respects, so we're just going to see continual drain of jobs off-shore, with continual pressure to worsen working conditions in Australia to compete.

Some people in the higher echelons of society may not have a problem with this, but they should be asking themselves what will happen to the increasing numbers of unemployed, underemployed, and impoverished. Are they going to sit in squallor passively watching the rich get richer? I don't think so. They're going to resort to crime and drugs, and no matter how hard they try, the wealthy won't be able to avoid the impacts of these problems.

The only way out of this cycle for a small economy like ours is to use our education resources to develop a highly educated and skilled workforce coupled to industries producing cutting edge technologies and information. The Howard government acknowledged this with their 'clever country' catchcry.

But what actually resulted from this catchcry? Funding directed to some of the top private schools in the country. A continual squeeze on the university sector, including diversion of student places to the wealthy. A continual drain of innovative technologies offshore.

As an example, climate change is a fantastic opportunity for Australia. We had cutting edge technology insolar power 10 years or so ago. Whether it's man-induced or natural we could have used this to capitalise on this situation and become THE supplier of solar technology to the world. Imagine all those pork barrelled funds and wasted spending on the Iraq war funnelled into universities and companies working in this area. What's happened in reality? Howard buried his head in the sand and pretended nothing was happening. NO VISION!
 
jb03 said:
To suggest the HR Nichols society has anywhere as much influence on pretty much anything as trade unions is folly.
Click to expand...

I think the influence on the respective parties is pretty similar. Both groups are generally ignored in the respective parties' pursuit of populism.
 
Azza said:
The only way out of this cycle for a small economy like ours is to use our education resources to develop a highly educated and skilled workforce coupled to industries producing cutting edge technologies and information. The Howard government acknowledged this with their 'clever country' catchcry.

But what actually resulted from this catchcry? Funding directed to some of the top private schools in the country. A continual squeeze on the university sector, including diversion of student places to the wealthy. A continual drain of innovative technologies offshore.
Click to expand...

Come off it Azza.
Any student with good enough marks can get into uni.
What you should be questioning is if we do have a shortage of university places here in Australia, why do we allow so many overseas students to study here? And if our universities are so bad and behind the times, why are so many overseas students coming here to gain their higher education?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Russia Invades Ukraine >
Official PRE merch now on Redbubble!
Top Bottom