Russia Invades Ukraine

[DavidSSS]

An interesting reflection on war and Ukraine here: https://consortiumnews.com/2022/03/01/chris-hedges-the-greatest-evil/

The end is quite pertinent:

The dangerous and sadly predictable provocation of Russia — whose nuclear arsenal places the sword of Damocles above our heads — by expanding NATO was understood by all of us reporting in Eastern Europe in 1989 during the revolutions and the break-up of the Soviet Union.


This provocation, which includes establishing a NATO missile base 100 miles from Russia’s border, was foolish and highly irresponsible. It never made geopolitical sense.


This does not, however, excuse the invasion of Ukraine. Yes, the Russians were baited. But they reacted by pulling the trigger. This is a crime. Their crime. Let us pray for a ceasefire. Let us work for a return to diplomacy and sanity, a moratorium on arms shipments to Ukraine and the withdrawal of Russian troops from the country. Let us hope for an end to war before we stumble into a nuclear holocaust that devours us all.

As he says, provoking Russia, a nuclear power, was foolish and irresponsible. But ultimately it was Russia who took the bait and who invaded another country.

Some more background from the last US ambassador to the USSR: https://consortiumnews.com/2022/02/16/ukraine-crisis-should-have-been-avoided/

The Ukrainians remain the pawns in this geopolitical contest. But what is a pawn to do? They are not in a great position. Invaded by a clearly superior military power, lacking real support from NATO and the US, Ukraine really is the meat in the sandwich. Russia is most likely to win the war, but resistance from Ukraine, maybe even limiting the war that Russia is likely to win by making it simply too much of a sacrifice to take all of Ukraine, does give them some space to win the peace. Russia is unlikely to win the peace in the medium term. They could install a client regime but it is a short term fix, Ukraine should resist, maybe we could even get a sensible cease fire and some sort of resolution to the issues which have been inflamed by both sides.

This is a complex situation, there is propaganda from both sides. Of course we question Russia's propaganda, but to the swallow Western propaganda without question, that just makes no sense. The first casualty of war is truth, and both sides have truths they like to exterminate.

DS

 

[AngryAnt]

This is a complex situation, there is propaganda from both sides. Of course we question Russia's propaganda, but to the swallow Western propaganda without question, that just makes no sense. The first casualty of war is truth, and both sides have truths they like to exterminate.

DS

"There are very fine people on both sides" - DJ Trump

 

[Baloo]

This is a complex situation, there is propaganda from both sides. Of course we question Russia's propaganda, but to the swallow Western propaganda without question, that just makes no sense. The first casualty of war is truth, and both sides have truths they like to exterminate.

Putin has invaded Ukraine. That's what my media consumption tells me.

Is that Western propaganda? In Russia there is no mention of an invasion. Should I not believe it was a Russian invasion rather suspect it's somewhere in between because of the differing accounts on what is happening?

I just want to make sure I get my facts straights and not unfairly blame Putin as the aggressor if he isn't.

 

[DavidSSS]

"There are very fine people on both sides" - DJ Trump

If you say so, I would actually say there are a lot of arseholes on both sides myself, but you are entitled to your views.

Baloo, yes, as I have said over and over and over, it is Russia who are the aggressors as they invaded Ukraine.

But the Western propaganda has been to portray Russia as sole aggressors and Putin as a latter day Czar or as a nutcase. In doing so the propaganda line is clearly to simplify the issue and paint one side as solely to blame and the west as completely blameless.

Read the article by Jack Matlock and tell me that NATO has not been provoking Russia and trying to maneuver Russia to overplay their hand.

Are people here seriously saying that NATO has not been provoking Russia? Or, are you saying that NATO provoking Russia is a good thing?

Always question the propaganda from both sides, it is propaganda. Truth is the first casualty of war.

DS

 

[Harry]

Media propaganda means little in a full scale war like this. Putin won't stop until his demands are met in the name of national security. No amount of media noise or sanctions will change this. Morale support from the West isn't going to help the Ukrainians.

Ukraine should have been aware of the current political landscape and neutrality really was their only option. The US, doing what they do best, meddled in their internal affairs and now we have this disastrous situation.

 

[tigerman]

Putin has invaded Ukraine. That's what my media consumption tells me.

Is that Western propaganda? In Russia there is no mention of an invasion. Should I not believe it was a Russian invasion rather suspect it's somewhere in between because of the differing accounts on what is happening?

I just want to make sure I get my facts straights and not unfairly blame Putin as the aggressor if he isn't.

But, but, Putin's sent them in on a peace keeping mission, I'd hate see them when they are at war.

 

[AngryAnt]

If you say so, I would actually say there are a lot of arseholes on both sides myself, but you are entitled to your views.

Baloo, yes, as I have said over and over and over, it is Russia who are the aggressors as they invaded Ukraine.

But the Western propaganda has been to portray Russia as sole aggressors and Putin as a latter day Czar or as a nutcase. In doing so the propaganda line is clearly to simplify the issue and paint one side as solely to blame and the west as completely blameless.

Read the article by Jack Matlock and tell me that NATO has not been provoking Russia and trying to maneuver Russia to overplay their hand.

Are people here seriously saying that NATO has not been provoking Russia? Or, are you saying that NATO provoking Russia is a good thing?

Always question the propaganda from both sides, it is propaganda. Truth is the first casualty of war.

DS

no, I'm saying you are falling for the lie that there is a moral equivalence here.

There isn't.

 

[Harry]

Things starting to stir in the middle east.

 

[MD Jazz]

Media propaganda means little in a full scale war like this. Putin won't stop until his demands are met in the name of national security. No amount of media noise or sanctions will change this. Morale support from the West isn't going to help the Ukrainians.

Ukraine should have been aware of the current political landscape and neutrality really was their only option. The US, doing what they do best, meddled in their internal affairs and now we have this disastrous situation.

Terrific analysis harry. Very helpful. You and David should have been advising Zelensky, I'm sure it would have resulted in he and Vlad skolling vodka on the banks of the Dnieper discussing their next hunting trip.

Putin had no option.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Things starting to stir in the middle east.

Are you referring to the developing wheat and bread shortage stemming from the Ukraine conflict? There are some dire predictions for looming food shortages across the Middle East and North Africa which could give rise to massive civil unrest. These societies have been sitting on an uneasy knife's edge since the so called 'Arab Spring.' That has the potential to easily boil over into more general conflict. Or feed into already existing conflicts.

 

[Harry]

Terrific analysis harry. Very helpful. You and David should have been advising Zelensky, I'm sure it would have resulted in he and Vlad skolling vodka on the banks of the Dnieper discussing their next hunting trip.

Putin had no option.

Putin had plenty of options and he chose this one. It really means *smile* now.
Zelensky miscalculated the situation and his people are paying the price.

 

[AngryAnt]

The US, doing what they do best, meddled in their internal affairs and now we have this disastrous situation.

This news bulletin brought to you by Russia Today and InfoWars

 

[AngryAnt]

Zelensky Putin miscalculated the situation and the Russian and Ukrainian people are paying the price.

 

[DavidSSS]

no, I'm saying you are falling for the lie that there is a moral equivalence here.

There isn't.

Who said there is moral equivalence? Can you please (I'm asking nicely now) stop putting words in my mouth. I never said such a thing, I never implied such a thing and you either are unable/unwilling to understand or you are baiting/trolling.

Putin had no option.

Nobody is saying this either.

The straw men informed by one-sided propaganda in this thread is astounding.

FFS I really am getting to the point where I can only conclude that this situation, and great power geopolitics, is simply too complex for most to grasp.

But, I asked a question, and I will ask it again:

Are people here seriously saying that NATO has not been provoking Russia? Or, are you saying that NATO provoking Russia is a good thing?​

DS

 

[Baloo]

The straw men informed by one-sided propaganda in this thread is astounding.

FFS I really am getting to the point where I can only conclude that this situation, and great power geopolitics, is simply too complex for most to grasp.

But, I asked a question, and I will ask it again:

yeah, sorry DavidSSS, but that above really does come across like typical anti-vax conspiracy speak.

 

[tigerdell]

Who said there is moral equivalence? Can you please (I'm asking nicely now) stop putting words in my mouth. I never said such a thing, I never implied such a thing and you either are unable/unwilling to understand or you are baiting/trolling.



Nobody is saying this either.

The straw men informed by one-sided propaganda in this thread is astounding.

FFS I really am getting to the point where I can only conclude that this situation, and great power geopolitics, is simply too complex for most to grasp.

But, I asked a question, and I will ask it again:

Are people here seriously saying that NATO has not been provoking Russia? Or, are you saying that NATO provoking Russia is a good thing?​

DS

Ok I'll bite.
From mostly sitting outside this discussion, it's clear that there is a level of anger and stress. A lot of hurt. And blaming other posters for misreading and misleading what's been posted.

This much we know.
Putin invaded Russia.
It sucks.

Pre invasion NATO was doing what it's designed to do. Build allegiances between neighbouring countries and strengthen military ties.
NATO had consistently rebuffed Ukraine's interest to join. Gave enough signals to indicate a formal request would be rejected.

The discussion that NATO granting membership to Estonia Latvia Lithuania was provocative to Russia and led to Russia invading Ukraine is akin the USA being terrorist attacked on sep11 by Afghan based terrorists and then invading Iraq.
Its misleading.


Estonia Latvia Lithuania are on Russia s border. They are Baltic countries, not Russian Slavic as Ukraine is.
These countries can choose to join a mutual defense organisation. To join Europe and the EU. Fair play to them.

Ukraine wasn't permitted to join NATO.
Lets be clear on that.
This wasn't Ukraine's choice, it was NATO.
ie the USA.
Obviously because it was seen to be too provocative to Russia.
So I guess we can say that NATO was fulfilling its role and also making decisions to maintain the geopolitic balance with Russia.

 

[AngryAnt]

Who said there is moral equivalence? Can you please (I'm asking nicely now) stop putting words in my mouth. I never said such a thing, I never implied such a thing and you either are unable/unwilling to understand or you are baiting/trolling.

If you say both sides are utilising propaganda with no qualifer, that implies a moral equivalence. One side is calling this a "special military operation", the other calls it an invasion. Which is propaganda?

The Russian soldiers who have been captured have said they were not even told they were moving into Ukraine - they were told they would be a peacekeeping force in the "independent" regions. Military experts are flabbergasted at this - that's how you destroy troop morale as soon as they realise they are being fed total BS.

One side has shutdown all social media commentary on the war and has instituted 25 year prison terms for those who spread information that comes from outside the official state channels. Guess which side is doing that?

On the question of NATO, the informed comment I've read suggests that a decade of weak NATO and Western responses has encouraged Putin - the idea that Putin has been "forced" into this is patently absurd.

As for NATO "provoking" Russia, that's nonsense. NATO allowed nations that wanted to join to join - as long as they qualified and were accepted by a vote of member nations.

Let's be frank David - Ukraine had a choice - increasingly become a vassal state to Russia with all its corruption, hegemony, oligarchs and a crime syndicate running the show or look to the West - an EU that values trade, transparency, innovation and democracy. You've really painted yourself into a pro-Russian propaganda corner here.

Final point on the complexities of all this - NATO refused Ukraine full membership as it didn't qualify, just as it doesn't yet qualify for EU membership. Ukraine is a "partner nation" of NATO however. The idea that the US runs NATO as a puppet association and just wants to expand it forever is also wrong - even expansion in the last few decades was hotly contested internally as it means NATOs budget and capabilities are diluted.

For those interested in facts rather than just the simplistic take of poor Mother Russia being squeezed by the evil USA and its minions, this article is a good primer. https://www.france24.com/en/russia/20220130-did-nato-betray-russia-by-expanding-to-the-east

 

[Legends of 2017]

The straw men informed by one-sided propaganda in this thread is astounding

Yep
I‘m waiting to see the the Russian propaganda come out
Of Ukrainian jets bombing and firing missiles on Moscow and other Russian cities
Of Russian hospitals and urban non military areas being shelled
Of Russian civilians hiding and trying to shelter from artillery raining down on them
Of Russian elderly, women and children desperately trying to flee to safety into neighbouring countries
Of Ukrainian soldiers marching through streets of Russia
Of Zelenzky putting a bounty on Putin’s head along with his ministry
Of Zelenzky saying his forces aren’t invading Russia but are there as a peacekeeping force while blowing things up
Of Ukrainian forces targeting Russian nuclear reactors
Of near worldwide condemnation of Ukraine’s actions
Of Ukraine offering a ceasefire so Russian civilians can evacuate to safety only to continue bombarding safe routes out
Of worldwide sanctions against Ukraine for their invasion of Russian territory

Waiting………………..

 

[Harry]

No one is arguing that Putin is right to invade Ukraine so some on here can come down off your high horse. Being right or wrong is irrelevant when there is a perceived threat to your national security and you have the muscle to do something about it. The US was wrong to invade Iraq based on a bunch of lies, and the perceived threat from a country 11,000 kms away. But they still did, and had the support of their people, and no one was held accountable for the deaths of approx. 400,000 people.

 

[AngryAnt]

No one is arguing that Putin is right to invade Ukraine so some on here can come down off your high horse. Being right or wrong is irrelevant when there is a perceived threat to your national security and you have the muscle to do something about it.

So you think because of a "perceived threat" and muscle Putin is completely justified. Got it. Here's the real threat that the Ukraine poses Putin - and it's not military. He doesn't want a country next to Russia that is culturally similar, that many people have family connections to, free, democratic and part of the EU. It's a threat to Russia's political culture.

Most of us agree the Iraq war was wrong and evil, and was a confection of lies from the start - some of us were even saying that at the time.