Re: Adam Goodes

[Coburgtiger]

Yes. Not other people's opinions on dodgy internet forums but actual evidence.

I didn't suggest that. Do you have any evidence that it is or are you happy to put everyone in the bulk bin just in case?

What do you want, Rosy? A signed document from one of the booers saying, "I hereby declare myself racist!".

Because that's not going to happen. Although the CEO had this to say about it on behalf of the AFL community.

" We come into this game as a united industry and, after two weeks of discussion, a clear statement has been made by our industry, by the playing group, by the clubs, by the industry generally that if you boo Adam this week, it really can't be construed as anything else other than racist. That's pretty unambiguous now."

Is that evidence? I would agree that's is pretty unambiguous.

What about the fact that the booing only started as a consistent attack on an individual after the indigenous round?

Is that evidence?

What about the millions of now deleted comments across Facebook, Twitter and other social media that crossed the line into racism?

There is clearly a racial element to the sustained , persistent, persecution. Some Australians felt okay with jumping on board with that.

That's not okay.

 

[Rosy]

What do you want, Rosy? A signed document from one of the booers saying, "I hereby declare myself racist!".

......

No I don't want that at all. That would reflect on that one person anyway rather than the thousands who indulged in booing Adam.

" We come into this game as a united industry and, after two weeks of discussion, a clear statement has been made by our industry, by the playing group, by the clubs, by the industry generally that if you boo Adam this week, it really can't be construed as anything else other than racist. That's pretty unambiguous now."

Is that evidence? I would agree that's is pretty unambiguous.

.......

That isn't evidence of anything in my opinion. More a generalised comment and judgement from a person with a vested interest in dousing the flames. The AFL reportedly had division in their own ranks about how they handled the situation in the first place.

What about the fact that the booing only started as a consistent attack on an individual after the indigenous round?

Is that evidence?

.......

Evidence of what? The fact that only started after the indigenous round, coupled by the fact no other aboriginal players copped the same treatment, suggests Adam is more being targeted because of his actual actions rather than his race.

What about the millions of now deleted comments across Facebook, Twitter and other social media that crossed the line into racism?

There is clearly a racial element to the sustained , persistent, persecution. Some Australians felt okay with jumping on board with that.

That's not okay.

I wouldn't have a clue what the millions of deleted comments said. If they were racist they should be removed. I don't see how racist comments make booing racist. Same with your KKK example. There's a lot more scope to judge intent with comments and reenactments than there is with booing.

Tell me if you think any of the following should apply in regards to booing from the stands.

It should have be banned.
It should have be banned towards Adam Goodes only.
It should have be banned towards indigenous players.
It should be looked at as a scourge on the game but if everyone stops judging and labeling and accusing others and twitting about it it should settle down.
Other option...please explain.

 

[IanG]

No I don't want that at all. That would reflect on that one person anyway rather than the thousands who indulged in booing Adam.

How do you propose evidence be obtained then?

Evidence of what? The fact that only started after the indigenous round, coupled by the fact no other aboriginal players copped the same treatment, suggests Adam is more being targeted because of his actual actions rather than his race.

Explain why other players who are far worse on and off field didn't and don't get persecuted as much as Goodes then?

I wouldn't have a clue what the millions of deleted comments said. If they were racist they should be removed. I don't see how racist comments make booing racist. Same with your KKK example. There's a lot more scope to judge intent with comments and reenactments than there is with booing.

So you don't think booing can be racially motivated then?

 

[Rosy]

How do you propose evidence be obtained then?

Explain why other players who are far worse on and off field didn't and don't get persecuted as much as Goodes then?

So you don't think booing can be racially motivated then?

1-I don't propose anything. I was responding to Coburg's specific question and didn't mention obtaining evidence.
2-I don't recall any other player actually focusing their attentions on supporters like Adam has.
3-I didn't say that in any way, shape or form.

Seeing you continue to focus so much on what I say would you like to answer the questions about booing that I asked Coburg?

 

[Coburgtiger]

1-I don't propose anything. I was responding to Coburg's specific question and didn't mention obtaining evidence.
2-I don't recall any other player actually focusing their attentions on supporters like Adam has.
3-I didn't say that in any way, shape or form.

Seeing you continue to focus so much on what I say would you like to answer the questions about booing that I asked Coburg?

In not sure what question you want me to answer. This?

Tell me if you think any of the following should apply in regards to booing from the stands.

It should have be banned.
It should have be banned towards Adam Goodes only.
It should have be banned towards indigenous players.
It should be looked at as a scourge on the game but if everyone stops judging and labeling and accusing others and twitting about it it should settle down.
Other option...please explain.

I don't quite understand any of that. No, you can't ban booing at the football. Banning it is clearly ridiculous. I don't know how you'd police it, or what the punishment would be.

What I said is that, and I will say it for the fifth time, if you joined in with the booing of Adam Goodes, it literally doesn't matter why you were doing so. Maybe you did it cause you don't like him. Maybe you were scared of his imaginary spear. Maybe you didn't like being labelled a racist. Maybe you were saying boo-urns. It doesn't matter.

You were still joining in with a mob bullying of an individual, when a significant component of that mob were opposed to Adams race, or his comments on race relations, or his celebration of his culture.

It was a consistent, weekly, extended persecution, and any one who jumped on board with it should think long and hard about the kind of message they were jumping on board with. It doesn't matter what they were trying to enunciated with the extremely articulate 'Booo', because their message was coming across as racial abuse.

So just don't.

It has nothing to do with Banning, or legislation, it's just got to do with acting like a decent human.

 

[Rosy]

........
You were still joining in with a mob bullying of an individual, when a significant component of that mob were opposed to Adams race
.......

I've seen or read no concrete evidence of that whatsoever. Saying it's so doesn't make it so. The fact other indigenous players aren't targeted the same way indicates to me it probably isn't the case.

 

[alexwern]

Strange, however, that all the other indigenous players and Goodes' non indigenous team mates ands a majority of the non indigenous afl players feel that it is. Isn't it?

 

[Coburgtiger]

I've seen or read no concrete evidence of that whatsoever. Saying it's so doesn't make it so. The fact other indigenous players aren't targeted the same way indicates to me it probably isn't the case.

I don't know what counts as concrete evidence .

This isn't a 'beyond reasonable doubt' thing. Plus, you only quoted half my sentence.

What sort of proof do you want? A vox pop of those who booed in which a certain percentage tick the 'I'm a racist' box? Cause that probably won't happen.

 

[Rosy]

I don't know what counts as concrete evidence .

This isn't a 'beyond reasonable doubt' thing. Plus, you only quoted half my sentence.

What sort of proof do you want? A vox pop of those who booed in which a certain percentage tick the 'I'm a racist' box? Cause that probably won't happen.

Any evidence at all then. I didn't quote the other things because they've already been mentioned by people as their reasons. I have never seen "opposed to Adam's race" mentioned as a reason.

 

[Rosy]

Strange, however, that all the other indigenous players and Goodes' non indigenous team mates ands a majority of the non indigenous afl players feel that it is. Isn't it?

I doubt very much all of those been questioned about this being a matter of being "opposed to Adam's race" to find out how they actually feel. Seems more an assumption on how hundreds of people might think to me.

 

[alexwern]

It's not an assumption. They've come out in mass support of him saying that they feel that way. Have you not read the articles and tweets from players saying how embarrassed they are, the latest being about goodes' choice to not be a part of yesterday.

 

[Rosy]

It's not an assumption. They've come out in mass support of him saying that they feel that way. Have you not read the articles and tweets from players saying how embarrassed they are, the latest being about goodes' choice to not be a part of yesterday.

I've read some comments of course. My point was you claimed it was all of them. That's my issue that people are labeling and boxing everyone together where different people can have different reasons and thoughts. Too much mass generalisation. I didn't hear why Goodes didn't participate yesterday. Has he spoken about it? It's a shame for his many fans not to see him do a final lap of honour.

 

[IanG]

I've seen or read no concrete evidence of that whatsoever. Saying it's so doesn't make it so. The fact other indigenous players aren't targeted the same way indicates to me it probably isn't the case.

As has been said multiple times they aren't outspoken like him, and whats the difference between Goodes and other somewhat dirty players, the fact that he's outspoken on racial issues and makes people feel uncomfortable.

 

[Rosy]

As has been said multiple times they aren't outspoken like him, and whats the difference between Goodes and other somewhat dirty players, the fact that he's outspoken on racial issues and makes people feel uncomfortable.

So that automatically means they are opposed to "Adam's race" as claimed rather than opposed to Adam himself? Yeah sure. :blah

 

[Coburgtiger]

I doubt very much all of those been questioned about this being a matter of being "opposed to Adam's race" to find out how they actually feel. Seems more an assumption on how hundreds of people might think to me.

Any evidence at all then. I didn't quote the other things because they've already been mentioned by people as their reasons. I have never seen "opposed to Adam's race" mentioned as a reason.

So that automatically means they are opposed to "Adam's race" as claimed rather than opposed to Adam himself? Yeah sure. :blah

Rosy, you've taken one phrase in one sentence out of context, and are now stuck on that. What I actually said was
"You were still joining in with a mob bullying of an individual, when a significant component of that mob were opposed to Adams race, or his comments on race relations, or his celebration of his culture."

There was a significant proportion of the mob who throughout their jeers, mentioned the racial aspect of Adam's character as a reason for why they booed. I said they were opposed to his race OR his comments on race relations OR just his celebration of his culture. I did not say there was a significant proportion who were opposed to his race. But that the racists who were formed a component of a group who were saying they didn't like his comments on race relations or his cultural dance.

But no, you picked a third of that sentence, and have ignored the logic of every other post.

 

[Rosy]

......
But no, you picked a third of that sentence, and have ignored the logic of every other post.

I didn't mention proportions or percentages in my post to Ian which you quoted. I just mentioned the part of the quote I felt was relevant. I've already explained why I singled it out previously.

If you insist on following me around could explain the "logic" of claiming people are opposed to Adam's race rather than opposed to Adam himself...the latter is something you didn't mention but I'm sure it's relevant. How do you know people are opposed to his race rather than him personally?

 

[Rosy]

....... I said they were opposed to his race OR his comments on race relations OR just his celebration of his culture. I did not say there was a significant proportion who were opposed to his race. But that the racists who were formed a component of a group who were saying they didn't like his comments on race relations or his cultural dance.

.......

Just for your benefit I'll include your sentence, not that I think it makes any difference, and ask you (and Ian considering he jumped in), again .....

What is the logic behind claiming people were opposed to his race rather than opposed to him personally? There's a big difference between not being a fan of his comments or his so called "cultural dance" but that doesn't imply in any way they are opposed to the Aboriginal race. That's a massive generalisation...just clutching at straws.

 

[Rosy]

Using the logic of people being opposed to Aboriginals (Adam's race) due to Adam's personal behaviour and comments I guess it's obvious that certain people harass me on here because they are opposed to Females. Sexists. :blah

 

[Coburgtiger]

If you're going to flat out deny there was any racial element to any of the booing, then you're ignoring the actual situation, and there's not a lot of point in continuing this.

I've listed several times the evidence that suggested as such, plus, if you'd been at any of the games where goodes was copping it, you would have heard it too. Or followed any of the commentary around the issue. People generally had an issue with Adams stance on race relations.

 

[Rosy]

If you're going to flat out deny there was any racial element to any of the booing, then you're ignoring the actual situation, and there's not a lot of point in continuing this.

......

Please show where I've "flat out" denied there was any racial element.

....... People generally had an issue with Adams stance on race relations.

Having an "issue with Adam's stance" doesn't necessarily equate to them being "opposed to his race" as you claimed. Adam's stance doesn't mean it's the stance of all Aboriginals...in fact we know it's not. People not liking his stupid spear dance that obviously backfired shouldn't be assumed to be anti-Aboriginal race. People not liking him saying he was ashamed to be Australian after accepting the Australian of the Year award are judging Adam not his race.