Re: Adam Goodes

[Rosy]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse to push an agenda. It was a cultural celebration. Why the reference to the indigenous round? Seriously? It was in the indigenous round.
.......

As i mentioned already it wasn't only done in the Indigenous round and the AFL have called for all indigenous players to do it in other rounds. I'd maybe buy your "cultural celebration" (as cultural as something designed the night before can be) story if such actions were done to the opposition team or to Swans supporters but to aim it at opposition supporters and say it was meant to intimidate and it was war kinda gives a different connotation to me.

Anyway this thread hasn't had the discussion I hoped it would. It wasn't meant to black vs white that some on here thrive on. it was meant to be about the AFL treating people equally. It's pretty obvious to me many think they don't..but they also think they shouldn't.

 

[Tigerdangerous]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

Yes the AFL does discriminate and in the process makes a mockery of showing themselves to be visionary custodians of a game that has a huge following in various parts of Australia. Political correctness is a disease in Australia in part because we are lazy and are quite happy to let another person think for us. The AFL assumes they are on top of the race issue but their ad hock, reactive responses to so many of the big issues of recent times (Essendon’s attempt at laboratory improved performances anybody) is another sad example of the AFL’s inability to play with a straight bat; in fact their chopping and changing, slow reactions then usually finishing with a “greater than thou” moralizing response to a situation they have made worse makes me sick. Soliciting the public to side with them on issues like race in football is inviting a long, drawn out “he said that”, “you said this” useless social and political discourse that ultimately achieves nothing; the AFL would do well to be more transparent in its operations and move along their own long term administrators more regularly – yes I’m talking about you Fitzpatrick! Instead of tinkering endlessly with the rules of the game or striking dubious deals with stadium owners that come back to bite them on the *smile*, a good focus would be to work towards making the game a more affordable, enjoyable experience for those that are what football is about off the field – the supporters. Oh and one last thing; can the AFL come up with one new innovation that has not been borrowed from the NFL in the USA please. Guys, try it – you might surprise yourselves!!!!!!!!

 

[mld]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

At least the imaginary spear valued at $20,000 on eBay. :hihi

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/08/06/ebay-removes-listing-adam-goodes-imaginary-spear

Lucky that it was removed, it would have been dangerous in the wrong hands.

 

[yandb]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

Not a single person was intimidated by a pretend spear being thrown during a celebration of indigenous culture in INDIGENOUS ROUND.


NOT ONE PERSON.


Nobody saw Adam Goodes jumping around dancing and thought "OH NO I'M ABOUT TO BE HIT BY A SPEAR! Wait. He is on a football field. Odd that he hasn't got his spear on him. BUT HE DID SHAKE HIS HAND! MAYBE I WILL DIE! Wait. No. I'm in the crowd and he is dancing."

Literally not a single person was intimidated, scared, worried. They got all grumpy because the opposition player had scored a goal and appeared to be mocking them. Which happens a lot in various forms. I've seen heaps of players have a go at the cheer squad after a goal.

People didn't like seeing a celebration of indigenous culture. They're happy to sit their wearing their dream time jerseys and say "Oh yes, we support indigenous round. As long as we don't have to see any of that barbaric hand shaking. We don't want to actually think about the culture or the people. We just like the colours." As soon as there's a little bit of feeling in one man's celebration of his background, it all becomes scary and too real.

People weren't scared of a spear. There wasn't one. The only fear was pure xenophobia. And to compare a celebration of culture during a round DESIGNED TO CELEBRATE THAT CULTURE to ben cousins flipping of a camera, is gross, and ridiculous.

Were you there Coburg?

The way you are posting you seem to be speaking as though you were in the crowd.

 

[zgod]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

Hopefully Ivan does a Russian squat dance this weekend during multi cultural round.
Or croatian. ... :hihi

 

[KnightersRevenge]

That is incorrect Knighters.

I haven't said much about his actions on the day. I've said it wasn't his fault the girl was subjected to the ordinary treatment on the day. It was the next day he singled the girl out as the face of racism. After all she'd been through he still put her up for public humiliation. Yes he did say some nice things at the time too but in my mind they didn't negate the fact he labeled her the way he did. He chose to her out himself in a media conference while telling others to support her.

This is where perhaps the nub of our disagreement lies. I think you are taking his statement too literally. I don't think his "face of racism" comment was directed at the girl at all. It would be very odd, IMO, for him to go to lengths to talk about caring for her and to then say this if it was meant literally, don't you think? I think he was making a much broader point about the effects of casual racism. He was telling Australia that "this" is the face of racism, not that "she" is the face of racism. You end up in an Australia where a 13yr can say what she said in a public place without feeling embarrassed or ashamed because she doesn't realise how abhorent it is.

If you just asked me I'd be happy to discuss my opinions. It's the boorish attitude and repeated snide digs some are dishing out to those they disagree with that annoy me. It's the repeated not reading what was actually said, twisting words and misquoting that's frustrating. You say I don't discuss the positives of Goodes. There are some who don't/won't discuss the negatives. I'm sure he's not perfect and I've no doubt given his time again he might do things a bit differently. I've asked some general questions that nobody has answered. It works both ways. People have a right to discuss what they want to without being harassed.

I have repeatedly made it clear the areas I'm interested in discussing on this thread are in regards to AFL football. That doesn't mean I have no interest or caring in regards to indigenous welfare.

I haven't seen the programs you mention. My opinions are my own.

There was a nice article yesterday about Bachar dealing with Muslims and the taunts they cop. Adam could do well to read it and think about a far less confrontational and aggressive approach imo.

I have asked questions that have gone unanswered too. Can you truely not see the double standard you apply when you tell us how Adam should behave? That he should be more like Bachar, or Nicky or Long?

I recommend the Project or Offsiders to you to get a much better idea of how I see this issue. If I can find them I will provide links.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Offsiders

http://www.abc.net.au/sport/offsiders/content/2015/s4285340.htm

 

[KnightersRevenge]

The Project

http://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/the-project/extra/season-7/the-rewriting-of-history-on-adam-goodes

 

[tigerlove]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

Hopefully Ivan does a Russian squat dance this weekend during multi cultural round.
Or croatian. ... :hihi

I hope he doesn't. Likely to pull a hamstring...

 

[Rosy]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

Yes the AFL does discriminate and in the process makes a mockery of showing themselves to be visionary custodians of a game that has a huge following in various parts of Australia. Political correctness is a disease in Australia in part because we are lazy and are quite happy to let another person think for us. The AFL assumes they are on top of the race issue but their ad hock, reactive responses to so many of the big issues of recent times (Essendon’s attempt at laboratory improved performances anybody) is another sad example of the AFL’s inability to play with a straight bat; in fact their chopping and changing, slow reactions then usually finishing with a “greater than thou” moralizing response to a situation they have made worse makes me sick. Soliciting the public to side with them on issues like race in football is inviting a long, drawn out “he said that”, “you said this” useless social and political discourse that ultimately achieves nothing; the AFL would do well to be more transparent in its operations and move along their own long term administrators more regularly – yes I’m talking about you Fitzpatrick! Instead of tinkering endlessly with the rules of the game or striking dubious deals with stadium owners that come back to bite them on the *smile*, a good focus would be to work towards making the game a more affordable, enjoyable experience for those that are what football is about off the field – the supporters. Oh and one last thing; can the AFL come up with one new innovation that has not been borrowed from the NFL in the USA please. Guys, try it – you might surprise yourselves!!!!!!!!

They discriminate between teams. They fix the draw. They have manufactured concept rounds. Nowhere near an even playing field in many ways. Glad I am old enough to have seen the days when football was football rather than a political minefield.

 

[poppa x]

If I was asked by my club to applaud Goodes - as the Cats have done - to show solidarity etc. then I'd remain silent.
I'd refuse to applaud any opposition player - unless it was their final game before retirement.
The Cats want their players and fans to be all warm and cuddly to Goodes - when there's a place in the finals up for grabs.
I don't get it.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

Lucky that it was removed, it would have been dangerous in the wrong hands.

I believe it breached eBay's dangerous imaginary goods policy. It is in their quarantine lock-up next to the holy hand grenade of Antioch, and the Stern perpetual motion generator.

 

[Rosy]

..... It would be very odd, IMO, for him to go to lengths to talk about caring for her and to then say this if it was meant literally, don't you think?......

Extremely odd indeed. I also find it odd you'd accuse me of providing cover for racists and wonder why you'd do that too.

..........
I have asked questions that have gone unanswered too.
.......

You've virtually harassed me with digs about my opinions. You are entitled to your and I am entitled to mine. Funny how some need to make it so personal.

Can you truely not see the double standard you apply when you tell us how Adam should behave? That he should be more like Bachar, or Nicky or Long?

Have I actually told you Adam should be more like Bachar or Nicky or Long? I don't recall that. Please provide a link and I'll edit it because that's not the way I feel at all.

I recommend the Project or Offsiders to you to get a much better idea of how I see this issue. If I can find them I will provide links.

I'm not overly interested in watching programs to see how you feel about this issue. I don't have the internet speed or bandwith to do so.

 

[glantone]

.......... I don't think his "face of racism" comment was directed at the girl at all. ..........I think he was making a much broader point about the effects of casual racism. He was telling Australia that "this" is the face of racism, not that "she" is the face of racism. You end up in an Australia where a 13yr can say what she said in a public place without feeling embarrassed or ashamed because she doesn't realise how abhorent it is.

Geez, just watched the clip in full of his talking about the little girl and totally agree. He was actually really caring and thoughtful in his approach.
Reckon Goodes remains a wonderful role model despite his playing for free kicks.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-01/tapp-drum-tv-indigenous-ep/6665312

22 and a half minutes in for Goode's comments on video.

 

[Tigerdangerous]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

They discriminate between teams. They fix the draw. They have manufactured concept rounds. Nowhere near an even playing field in many ways. Glad I am old enough to have seen the days when football was football rather than a political minefield.

My biggest concerns with the AFL which began several years ago with you know who as CEO was the gross and obvious manipulation of the media where today most football journalists are in bed with the AFL spin merchants and vica versa. As a consequence the public is fed a continual dose of compromised journalistic dribble that hides the truth about the draw fixing, who goes and who gets off from reports (this part of the game is a bloody disgrace and the media and the AFL should hang their heads in shame!), with the political correctness of some journalists an embarrassment. Patrick Smith is a rare breed indeed and does manage to provide entertaining and forthright points of view on our great game with most of his stories. As for the bias of television commentary, once again the AFL should be ashamed of accepting this unacceptable situation – and I haven’t even begun about the declining quality and banality of most commentary! The goody two shoes approach to televising and reporting on the AFL allows for the backroom boys to decide who is untouchable and even at this early stage, who is going to win the Brownlow and that is not how a great game should be run and it’s treating the supporters with utter contempt!

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

As i mentioned already it wasn't only done in the Indigenous round and the AFL have called for all indigenous players to do it in other rounds. I'd maybe buy your "cultural celebration" (as cultural as something designed the night before can be) story if such actions were done to the opposition team or to Swans supporters but to aim it at opposition supporters and say it was meant to intimidate and it was war kinda gives a different connotation to me.

Anyway this thread hasn't had the discussion I hoped it would. It wasn't meant to black vs white that some on here thrive on. it was meant to be about the AFL treating people equally. It's pretty obvious to me many think they don't..but they also think they shouldn't.

IMO before you talk about discrimination that favours Indigenous (that is the gist of your post) let's get equality first. How can we talk about a "level playing field" given the parlous state of nearly all social/health/educational/correctional categories in relation to Australia's first peoples? I understand you want to isolate the AFL from the social/political issues in relation to Indigenous Aussies, I just don't understand why. Cricket played a role in putting political pressure on South Africa. The "black power" salute at the Olympics, etc. Sport has been used to both separate "classes" and "races" and it has brought them together. The Irish rugby team is the only national team that includes players from Northern Ireland, it is one of the only times people from the Republic Ireland are encouraged to cheer and support "the north". Sport, perhaps especially in Australia, is a powerful tool for change.

On the "haka" it was performed by the teams for themselves, only "relatively" recently in international rugby did it become about the opposition. IIRC the Irish Rugby team chose to put themselves in front of the All Blacks and to approach them. The "opposition" did that, not the Kiwis.

 

[AngryAnt]

Geez, just watched the clip in full of his talking about the little girl and totally agree. He was actually really caring and thoughtful in his approach.
Reckon Goodes remains a wonderful role model despite his playing for free kicks.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-01/tapp-drum-tv-indigenous-ep/6665312

22 and a half minutes in for Goode's comments on video.

No it's far easier to take his comments in print out of context rather than listen to what the man actually said.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

Yeah - actually set the pace for a while with its strong stance against racism and racial abuse on the field. This was useful in showing to broader society that to abuse anyone on the basis of race was wrong and shouldn't be tolerated.

Football has always been political - either negatively or positively. And how you'd expect a multi-million dollar business with massive media exposure, a heap of different personalities, with teams and players from all over Australia with different backgrounds to not be political at times is just naive IMO.

Football is a microcosm of society - it's political, deal with it.

The truth is that Adam makes some of us feel uncomfortable by presenting a strong indigenous presence both on and off the field.

 

[Rosy]

Re: Does the AFL discriminate?

IMO before you talk about discrimination that favours Indigenous (that is the gist of your post) let's get equality first. How can we talk about a "level playing field" given the parlous state of nearly all social/health/educational/correctional categories in relation to Australia's first peoples? I understand you want to isolate the AFL from the social/political issues in relation to Indigenous Aussies, I just don't understand why. ......

On the "haka" it was performed by the teams for themselves, only "relatively" recently in international rugby did it become about the opposition. IIRC the Irish Rugby team chose to put themselves in front of the All Blacks and to approach them. The "opposition" did that, not the Kiwis.

Why? Because every player in the AFL deserves equality (in my opinion if I'm allowed to have one :hihi ). Some indigenous players possibly had a better upbringing than some of the non indigenous players. I know of one at least. I don't think that's relevant. I find it amusing when "indigenous" is all encompassing as thought they all have the same experiences and feelings and they are exclusive. To me everyone should be equal.

I have said I don't know much about the haka but I don't get your point really. You're talking about teams doing it for themselves and approaching each other. Is the haka done across the fence and aimed at opposition supporters?

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Extremely odd indeed. I also find it odd you'd accuse me of providing cover for racists and wonder why you'd do that too.

I've offered the olive branch, you don't have take it Rosy.

You've virtually harassed me with digs about my opinions. You are entitled to your and I am entitled to mine. Funny how some need to make it so personal.

See above

Have I actually told you Adam should be more like Bachar or Nicky or Long? I don't recall that. Please provide a link and I'll edit it because that's not the way I feel at all.

There was a nice article yesterday about Bachar dealing with Muslims and the taunts they cop. Adam could do well to read it and think about a far less confrontational and aggressive approach imo.

I'm not overly interested in watching programs to see how you feel about this issue. I don't have the internet speed or bandwith to do so.

That's cool but it makes it hard to dicuss it, Waleed and the clips of what Goodes actually said and the way he said it makes the point far better than I have so far.