Re: Adam Goodes

[Chimptastic]

I am a bit torn on this one.

I have been involved around international aid work for a long time and there are some people involved in that who get similar reactions. the really effective ones are somewhat low key, you know they are passionate and dedicated but they aren't shoving it down people's throats all the time because those that do get people offside. They feel like that they are always on the defensive and being judged.

It's the way I feel about Adam Goodes sometimes. I love that he is passionate about indigenous issues and moving us forward as a nation, he is a great advocate and worker for indigenous rights. However I always feel like he is ( as my Mother used to say) " holier than thou" when he is delivering his message. It's almost like he is lecturing to us cretins.

maybe it's a style thing. To me passionate people are great but fanatics are boring ( except for tiger supporters of course) because they overwhelm us with their views. I like lower key people.

I think when you add that to his footy career where he is viewed as a great player but one who has continually staged for frees and has been a bit of a protected species , that is why he is booed. I wouldn't boo him myself because I generally support his views.

I agree with this.

Adam's holier than thou attitude seems to carry some underlying assumptions about the world that I don't necessarily think are perfectly accurate either.

I know identity is different for Indigenous people when it comes to their race, as in previous generations it has been a severe negative. Today, they are applauded for having tremendous racial pride.

However, I look forward to the day when nobody in Australia feels the need to identify with their race as a source of pride.

I don't want a society in which everybody has tremendous racial pride. I don't want the Chinese to fiercely identify as being different due to being Chinese, I don't want Indigenous people to fiercely identity as being different due to being Indigenous, I don't want whites to fiercely identify with being white, I don't want blacks to fiercely identity with being black - this type of thinking in itself is divisive and racial pride can never be conducive to a true brotherhood of man (androcentrism intended as a joke).

What you'll find is this:

The more you interact with people from other cultures, the less you identify your 'self' as being uniquely different as a result of your race.

I've never met a truly worldly person who identifies strongly with their race. Only close-minded or average people do. Goodes does, but his severely hurtful racial history is probably harder to detach from emotionally and I can't fully take this into account, so I usually just support him. Unfortunately, he's simply not very effective at how he goes about putting these issues under the microscope.

 

[Brodders17]

I agree with this.

Adam's holier than thou attitude seems to carry some underlying assumptions about the world that I don't necessarily think are perfectly accurate either.

I know identity is different for Indigenous people when it comes to their race, as in previous generations it has been a severe negative. Today, they are applauded for having tremendous racial pride.

However, I look forward to the day when nobody in Australia feels the need to identify with their race as a source of pride.

I don't want a society in which everybody has tremendous racial pride. I don't want the Chinese to fiercely identify as being different due to being Chinese, I don't want Indigenous people to fiercely identity as being different due to being Indigenous, I don't want whites to fiercely identify with being white, I don't want blacks to fiercely identity with being black - this type of thinking in itself is divisive and racial pride can never be conducive to a true brotherhood of man (androcentrism intended as a joke).

What you'll find is this:

The more you interact with people from other cultures, the less you identify your 'self' as being uniquely different as a result of your race.

I've never met a truly worldly person who identifies strongly with their race. Only close-minded or average people do. Goodes does, but his severely hurtful racial history is probably harder to detach from emotionally and I can't fully take this into account, so I usually just support him. Unfortunately, he's simply not very effective at how he goes about putting these issues under the microscope.

i think part of the reason people from minority races/cultures identify more strongly with their race culture is because they have to. in Australia 'whites' dont tend to outwardly identify with their culture because it is the dominant culture. our laws are based on English traditions, often for no other reason than they are English traditions. the expected way to live is the 'white' way. for example parents of every culture are encouraged to use childcare. this is a totally foreign culture to many, but it is the way it is the 'white' way. education is received in school, kids are at home when it is dark.
in some African cultures, people hang out in groups whereever. In Australia if a group of African boys are hanging out they are a 'gang'.
often in Indigenous cultures, people yell. they might be sitting in the shade, yelling to other people sitting under another tree. when they do this in town they are being anti-social.

these are just a few random examples. the 'white' culture is the dominant culture in Australia. and the reason why people of minority cultures are often more protective, and outwardly proud, of their culture, because if they are not they will lose it.
(i hope that all wasnt too off tangent.)

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Maybe. People are saying the dislike of Goodes is mainly racist. I dislike him, or at least what I know of him, but it's nothing to do with his race. No doubt Goodes wasn't instinctive after initially pointing at the girl yet he chose to continue with it. Hardly a word from Adam about Eddie whose behaviour I consider was far worse considering the context. I wonder why that was.

I hope Adam retires from the AFL this year. I certainly hope he can do more good for his cause off the field than on it.

I don't suppose we can know what the true numbers are on this Rosy. To be clear Goodes staging for frees, and the sweet run he used to get from the umps *smile* me to high heaven. I just have a sense that the general crowd reaction and the easy fodder provided by the issues in the media gives the racists cover. They can justify their shitty behaviour and hide behind all the usual excuses. This discussion is a prime example. A closet racist could use any of the arguments put forward to claim justification. We could be taking about the problems facing Australia's First Nations but we are talking about a kid (who likely moved on long ago) and a dance. You may say that is Goodes fault for going about it the way he does, I say that misses the point and lets the casual, closeted, racists off the hook.

 

[Rosy]

We could come up with plenty of would bes and could bes. 2 facts stand out for me.

1- Goodes has used his position as a footballer to spruik his beliefs.
2- No other Indigenous player cops the same questioning, abuse and discussion about him.

Does anyone have any evidence of casual racism towards Adam Goodes when he plays or is it just personal opinion that it might be the issue?

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I am a bit torn on this one.

I have been involved around international aid work for a long time and there are some people involved in that who get similar reactions. the really effective ones are somewhat low key, you know they are passionate and dedicated but they aren't shoving it down people's throats all the time because those that do get people offside. They feel like that they are always on the defensive and being judged.

It's the way I feel about Adam Goodes sometimes. I love that he is passionate about indigenous issues and moving us forward as a nation, he is a great advocate and worker for indigenous rights. However I always feel like he is ( as my Mother used to say) " holier than thou" when he is delivering his message. It's almost like he is lecturing to us cretins.

maybe it's a style thing. To me passionate people are great but fanatics are boring ( except for tiger supporters of course) because they overwhelm us with their views. I like lower key people.

I think when you add that to his footy career where he is viewed as a great player but one who has continually staged for frees and has been a bit of a protected species , that is why he is booed. I wouldn't boo him myself because I generally support his views.

Someone once said "the difference between confidence and arrogance is whether you like the person". I reckon there is a lot of truth to that.

 

[glantone]

…just watched it on youtube again. Wow, forgot how close and personal that whole thing was. Truly disgusting.

Whether it was overt racism or not or whether it comes from a kid or not is beside the point. In this millennium white people of any age must never get away with calling black people apes. Not Ever.
And when we start making excuses, well, we know what Gomer Pyle would say.....

 

[KnightersRevenge]

We could come up with plenty of would bes and could bes. 2 facts stand out for me.

1- Goodes has used his position as a footballer to spruik his beliefs.
2- No other Indigenous player cops the same questioning, abuse and discussion about him.

Does anyone have any evidence of casual racism towards Adam Goodes when he plays or is it just personal opinion that it might be the issue?

1. Yup.
2. Kicky Winmar, Michael Long..etc some people have short memories.

Again you are still looking at this from the side of the majority who have had their feelings hurt and not the minority who have actual health and education and incarceration problems. Which one do you think is the bigger issue?

 

[IanG]

We could come up with plenty of would bes and could bes. 2 facts stand out for me.

1- Goodes has used his position as a footballer to spruik his beliefs.
2- No other Indigenous player cops the same questioning, abuse and discussion about him.

See that to me just proves to me what Waleed Aly said.

 

[1eyedtiger]

…just watched it on youtube again. Wow, forgot how close and personal that whole thing was. Truly disgusting.

Whether it was overt racism or not or whether it comes from a kid or not is beside the point. In this millennium white people of any age must never get away with calling black people apes. Not Ever.
And when we start making excuses, well, we know what Gomer Pyle would say.....

I find this to be racist in itself. Is it okay for a black person to call another black person an ape? Or a black person to call a white person an ape?
Would it be okay for me to invent my own war dance and perform it in front of Adam Goodes whenever I saw him in the street? Hey, I'm just celebrating life! Or has Goodes cornered the market on war dances and anyone else doing it is just being vindictive?

To me, he deliberately did it to provoke people. It was unnecessary and unwarranted. To me, it was the war dance version of giving the finger and apparently players have been punished for doing that. In this case, he's like the person who opens his mouth and says anything and everything just to say something, not because he has anything to say.

Goodes has zero credibility in my book and it has absolutely nothing to do with his race.

 

[TigerForce]

I find this to be racist in itself. Is it okay for a black person to call another black person an ape?

That's the hypocritical side I've noticed with African Americans and even with Aboriginals (more on ABC comedies though)

 

[Baloo]

It's a way of taking ownership of the slur. Like wogs. It was a derogative label until the wogs themselves adopted it, used it, and turned it into a badge of pride.

But just because wog is now a cool label, it doesn't mean the shkippydabooshkangaroos can use it in the same cool manner.

As an aside, whenever I see or hear "I'm not racist ..." it gets tossed into the same basket as "the coach has the full backing of the board"

 

[Sintiger]

I find this to be racist in itself. Is it okay for a black person to call another black person an ape? Or a black person to call a white person an ape?
Would it be okay for me to invent my own war dance and perform it in front of Adam Goodes whenever I saw him in the street? Hey, I'm just celebrating life! Or has Goodes cornered the market on war dances and anyone else doing it is just being vindictive?

To me, he deliberately did it to provoke people. It was unnecessary and unwarranted. To me, it was the war dance version of giving the finger and apparently players have been punished for doing that. In this case, he's like the person who opens his mouth and says anything and everything just to say something, not because he has anything to say.

Goodes has zero credibility in my book and it has absolutely nothing to do with his race.

I get what your saying but the difference is that white people have not had a long historyof being subject to racism. The word ape has been used as a symbol of racism against black people all over the world. If you call me an ape it doesn't have the same connotation and history to it.

 

[1eyedtiger]

I get what your saying but the difference is that white people have not had a long historyof being subject to racism. The word ape has been used as a symbol of racism against black people all over the world. If you call me an ape it doesn't have the same connotation and history to it.

So if an aborigine calls me an ape, it's not racist because there's no history behind it?

I understand what you're saying as well but we can't let history become the excuse for the deplorable actions of those alive today. Just don't post that on the religious threads

The other problem I have with all this is how we're determining what is racist and what isn't. In the ape incident, it was deemed racist because Goodes took it as being racist. It didn't matter what the intention was on the part of the girl who said it. But, with the war dance, it's claimed it wasn't racist because Goodes said it wasn't. Isn't it up to the people the dance was directed towards whether it was racist or not?

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

So if an aborigine calls me an ape, it's not racist because there's no history behind it?

I don't think so. It goes back to Darwin's time when black people were widely believed to be "less evolved" and therefore less human. They were thought to not possess a "soul" like white people. Used to justify slavery etc.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

I can't help but agree with Waleed Aly that there is a level of "getting above your station" about the reaction to Goodes and Gerard Wateley that the "anti-staging" booers provide cover for the "racist" booers.

Think that trait is common among Australians generally ("tall poppy"). Probably offends an extra few percent when a black man is put on a pedestal.

 

[glantone]

I find this to be racist in itself. Is it okay for a black person to call another black person an ape? Or a black person to call a white person an ape?
Would it be okay for me to invent my own war dance and perform it in front of Adam Goodes whenever I saw him in the street? Hey, I'm just celebrating life! Or has Goodes cornered the market on war dances and anyone else doing it is just being vindictive?

To me, he deliberately did it to provoke people. It was unnecessary and unwarranted. To me, it was the war dance version of giving the finger and apparently players have been punished for doing that. In this case, he's like the person who opens his mouth and says anything and everything just to say something, not because he has anything to say.

Goodes has zero credibility in my book and it has absolutely nothing to do with his race.

If you think it isn’t racist for a white person to call a black person an ape you’re in luck 1eyedtiger. We have a growing African population in Australia as well. Knock yourself out mate with the 'ape' label and see how you go.

Guess the most famous example of black on black racist name calling would be Ali likening Frasier to a gorilla which was received by Frasier as racist. The implication being that Frasier was too black too ugly and too dumb …. for all intents and purposes he was a gorilla. It devastated him and his family who had to endure years of dehumanising gorilla comments, jokes, jibes, articles etc. Smoking Joe Frasier, .... what a *smile* weak prima donna, eh, 1eyed!

Why would a black person call a white person an ape as a racist insult? It's Saturday night, it's been a long week I'm tired. Can you please explain?


Goodes has been an absolute champ but he's also been a stager and a poor one at that. Both very acceptably boo-able traits in the footy arena. Boo him for that.

If he’s being booed for his political activities which obviously includes the ‘girl and the ape’ incident, well then the booing is also a political statement too, isn't it? Here is one solitary man black being booed by hundreds /thousands (?) over his politics? Wonder how many of those booing are black anti black activists?

Apparently Goodes called that little girl 'the face of racism' and that was very poor judgement. What a terrible thing to say. Bet he regrets it. But to erase everything else he is and has done on that one boo boo, ....stinks to high heaven. Hope he sticks it up his critics especially those with their tiny little pageless credibility books until the day he drops.

 

[Mr Brightside]

My 1cent view..... Been a fantastic unique footballer an as good as any too watch on his day. I for many years havent been a great fan of his diving an sniping on the field and over time lost respect for him on the field. His pointing out of the young girl could have been handled much better, however people do funny things in the heat of the moment and I wouldn't know how the Ape word effects him, thou many many players have copped equally as bad abuse over the fence for years. I'm of the belief for as hard as his tried too bring respect to his race an bring all races an cultures together his actually done more harm, people really dislike Adam Goodes now which is sad but that's life. I played footy with the Long brothers an there far from the perfect role models, however Micheal has done an amazing job at bringing Australians together an showing the great things of Aboriginal cultures. Take a step back Adam and have a look

 

[Rosy]

1. Yup.
2. Kicky Winmar, Michael Long..etc some people have short memories.
.....

Yes thanks Knighters having been in a coma in a critical condition with multiple fractured skull and brain damage can affect the memory. I find the comment a bit condescending just the same. It implies a certain air of superiority to me.

Dodgy memory or not I don't recall Winmar or Long copping near as much negativity, flak and controversy, either through a booing epidemic or in the media, social or otherwise.

I respect their actions of pride and concern for their race without resorting to exactly the kind of behaviour they want wiped out for their own people. They don't come across as us vs them like Goodes does.

........
Again you are still looking at this from the side of the majority who have had their feelings hurt and not the minority who have actual health and education and incarceration problems. Which one do you think is the bigger issue?

Why does it have to be a case of either or? I don't really get the point of your question.

I can't see how Goodes' public stance has helped with health, education and incarceration problems, although admittedly I don't know what he does behind the scenes, same as I can't see how him being booed has hindered them.

Of course a lot of work needs to be done. I don't think preaching from a football field or negative comments as Australian of the Year is the best way to go about it.

Good post CC :clapping

 

[Rosy]

....
Apparently Goodes called that little girl 'the face of racism' and that was very poor judgement. What a terrible thing to say. Bet he regrets it. But to erase everything else he is and has done on that one boo boo, ....stinks to high heaven. Hope he sticks it up his critics especially those with their tiny little pageless credibility books until the day he drops.

Hmmmm...who are you referring to glantone? How does one get pages in their tiny little credibility books? Who judges them and what is the criteria? That comes across as a gratuitous personal insult towards those who disagree with your view.

I don't think it's a case of apparently. More a case of fact. I also doubt very much people are erasing everything else he is and has done on that one boo boo.

 

[Giardiasis]

I find the distinction people are making between "race" as part of the problem. We still seem so preoccupied with making superficial genetic differences seem important. We are all human beings; we all have the ability to reason.