Re: Adam Goodes

[Freezer]

Goodes found it offensive and so would I if I was black.

That makes it offensive to you and to Goodes. If I said it to my mate, he wouldn't give a toss.

Would I say it to someone I didn't know? Of course not, and I think that is your point.

Context is my point.

 

[Liverpool]

I agree with that, it can vary from country to country , ive travelled a bit and while I think there is racism everywhere ,
I think NZ is probably a little bit unique with the relationship between maori and pakeha ( white)
It is nothing in NZ for a conversation to go like this between a couple of mates,
How are you ya black bastard ,
Yeah good honky , what ya up to , waana catch up for a beer bro ,
That would be tongue in cheek humor in NZ between a couple of mates ,
There was a case years ago when an English captain heard an AllBlack captain ( Sean Fitzpatrick) called a team mate ( Olo Brown) a black bastard on the field,
And he made a song and dance about it to the media, racist AB captain were the headlines in the English press,
Sean( who is part maori anyway but fairly light skinned ) and OLo were good mates, but try and explain to the rest of the world our unique relationship and our NZ humor , it cant be done .

Not as unique as all that KT. I used to be mates with an expat Cook Islander and a white South African. There was always plenty of 'racial abuse' flying around. The SA bloke often called the Cook Islander kaffir, and cop it back just as much.

We have had similar at work with a couple of Aboriginal workers who give as good as they get. Its all in jest between workmates and no harm done.
One of them is nicknamed "Choc"...he is fine with it and even has it written on his equipment
However....
The boys had some workplace training last year and learnt that they were not to call this bloke 'Choc' any longer.
Choc himself asked why, as thats his nickname and he wasn't offended by it, however they were all told that a third-party could overhear him being called Choc and be offended by it and report them.

Crazy, I know...but thats how politically correct and coy we have to be around people these days. You have to second-guess how people might react as everyone reacts differently.

Obviously Goodes chose to be offended this time by being called "ape" even though he has admitted to it happening on the field may times in the past.
How was the girl to know he would be offended when she said it?
To me, you can't pick and choose when you are offended...if "ape" offends him, then we should have heard an uproar from him well before now.
This all comes across as an attention-seeking exercise, particularly seeing it was indigenous round, on a friday night at the MCG against Collingwood, and 20 year anniversary of Winmar's stand.
Goodes chose well.

 

[Leysy Days]

And Livers knows he wasnt offended in the past. :hihi

 

[TigerForce]

We have had similar at work with a couple of Aboriginal workers who give as good as they get. Its all in jest between workmates and no harm done.
One of them is nicknamed "Choc"...he is fine with it and even has it written on his equipment
However....
The boys had some workplace training last year and learnt that they were not to call this bloke 'Choc' any longer.
Choc himself asked why, as thats his nickname and he wasn't offended by it, however they were all told that a third-party could overhear him being called Choc and be offended by it and report them.

Crazy, I know...but thats how politically correct and coy we have to be around people these days. You have to second-guess how people might react as everyone reacts differently.

I wonder how our own 'Choco' feels too Livers.

Obviously Goodes chose to be offended this time by being called "ape" even though he has admitted to it happening on the field may times in the past.
How was the girl to know he would be offended when she said it?
To me, you can't pick and choose when you are offended...if "ape" offends him, then we should have heard an uproar from him well before now.
This all comes across as an attention-seeking exercise, particularly seeing it was indigenous round, on a friday night at the MCG against Collingwood, and 20 year anniversary of Winmar's stand.
Goodes chose well.

When the opportunity is there......

 

[Freezer]

And Livers knows he wasnt offended in the past. :hihi

More a case of why didn't be speak up if he was?

 

[TigerForce]

I suspect you wouldn't even settle for ape being list on a list of ethnic slurs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

Geez...when did 'ocker' become a racist comment? No 'bogan'?

What about 'redskin'? Washington Redskins in NFL.

 

[Liverpool]

And Livers knows he wasnt offended in the past. :hihi

"To come to the boundary line and hear a 13 year old girl call me an 'ape', and it's not the first time on a footy field that I've been referred to as a 'monkey' or an 'ape', it was shattering."
Sadly, this incident isn't the first time Goodes has experienced racism whilst playing in the AFL.
He said opposition players have racially vilified him during games over the past ten years.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2013-05-25/goodes-gutted-by-incident


I stand by my previous post

 

[Rosy]

More a case of why didn't be speak up if he was?

And when similar happened after the girl as well.

We had a dog obedience club committee meeting yesterday. The topic of Goodes came up in a roundabout way ( someone mentioned their daughter in regard to Lovett Murray stabbing) and of the dozen or so there all thought Goodes was a sook and picked an easy target. Not one person was in favour of his recent actions....or lack thereof. The most criticism was he had plenty to say about the girl yet said nothing about Eddie. And for those who like to play the racist card that was nothing to do with the fact he's Aboriginal.

 

[Rosy]

..... Doesn't matter whether the 13 year old knew that or not. Goodes found it offensive and so would I if I was black.

You know how you'd feel if you were black? Do you think all black people feel the same? :headscratch

 

[Tigers of Old]

Seems plenty here that think that they understand how Goodes would have felt or should have taken it. Walk in his shoes..

 

[Rosy]

Seems plenty here that think that they understand how Goodes would have felt or should have taken it.

Indeed it does seem that way. Plenty of generalisation going on.

Adam said there's "no doubt" the girl has been name called or bullied at school. Does he know that for a fact or is he thinking that he understands someone too?

Walk in his shoes..

We can't walk in his shoes but we can have opinions on his actions and the fact he saw an opportunity to take a stand with a 13 yo girl but have no public comment when similar was said in the past or when Eddie McGuire said what he did.

Same as I can have opinions on your harassment even though I can't walk a mile in your shoes or know why you felt the need to treat someone that way.

 

[mld]

Seems plenty here that think that they understand how Goodes would have felt or should have taken it. Walk in his shoes..

I reckon some of the attitudes are a perfect example of why people hesitate to call out offensive behaviour.

 

[Tigers of Old]

I reckon some of the attitudes are a perfect example of why people hesitate to call out offensive behaviour.

No doubt.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Indeed it does seem that way. Plenty of generalisation going on.

I don't understand your stance on this at all Rosy. I'm not black, but I've copped racism in Australia. Human's ability to empathise is one of things that sets us apart. We absolutely can judge how a third party might feel. It isn't a generalisation. It is an essential element of our success as a social species.

We can't walk in his shoes but we can have opinions on his actions and the fact he saw an opportunity to take a stand with a 13 yo girl but have no public comment when similar was said in the past or when Eddie McGuire said what he did.

Thought experiment for you. Imagine for a moment that the McGuire comments happened first (say he did it from the boundary during the after match interview). You think Goodes would have laughed it off? Said "isn't Eddie a wag!"? Timing is everything. I can't understand why people are so focused on the girl's age. The significant fact is the casual racism not the fact that a minor was the one who said it. Again, it is pretty obvious that Goodes was calling out racism not the girl. The focus on her and her age is a red herring IMO. It seems to me that it doesn't require all this discussion. A mature society ought to be able to agree that the reference is racist and we should all be united in our determination to stamp out racism when and where we see it.

 

[Michael]

Wise words Knighter

 

[Rosy]

I don't understand your stance on this at all Rosy. I'm not black, but I've copped racism in Australia. Human's ability to empathise is one of things that sets us apart. We absolutely can judge how a third party might feel. It isn't a generalisation. It is an essential element of our success as a social species.

Thought experiment for you. Imagine for a moment that the McGuire comments happened first (say he did it from the boundary during the after match interview). You think Goodes would have laughed it off? Said "isn't Eddie a wag!"? Timing is everything. I can't understand why people are so focused on the girl's age. The significant fact is the casual racism not the fact that a minor was the one who said it. Again, it is pretty obvious that Goodes was calling out racism not the girl. The focus on her and her age is a red herring IMO. It seems to me that it doesn't require all this discussion. A mature society ought to be able to agree that the reference is racist and we should all be united in our determination to stamp out racism when and where we see it.

Could you please elaborate on what you consider my "stance on all this" is Knighters?

No I don't think Adam would have laughed it off and said isn't Eddie a wag. Silly question. I doubt he'd take the same stand though.

Yep we can guess how someone "might" feel, but it's only guesswork. No doubt we can be pretty confident how Adam Goodes felt. That doesn't mean all people of Aboriginal descent would feel the same.

I am not into "thought experiment"s. Facts are Adam was called the names by players and didn't choose to "take a stand". A 13yo girl called him a name and he saw the opportunity to do a Nicky Winmar. Eddie McGuire made similar comments and there was silence.

How is timing everything in regard to this situation?

I don't think the age is irrelevant. She's been treated appallingly for her age. I don't know how some are so sure she intended the sledge in a racist fashion. She said she wasn't aware of it and her friend had called Mumford an ape earlier. It seems convenient for some to assume she's a liar. Same as people not believing others had never heard of ape as a racist issue before.

Yes the reference can obviously be construed as racist. That's something I'm sure many have learned from this. "Chocco" is a racist term too yet it's used widely on here without causing issues. Even if Mark embraces it as a nickname there could be plenty of others who'd take offence. I wonder if Adam would react if the girl called him chocco over the fence.

I agree 100% with your last line. I feel that way about any abuse of other people whether racist or otherwise. We shouldn't swear, abuse, insult, indulge in name-calling anyone regardless of the colour, race or creed in my humble opinion. Many on this forum seem to disagree.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Could you please elaborate on what you consider my "stance on all this" is Knighters?

No I don't think Adam would have laughed it off and said isn't Eddie a wag. Silly question. I doubt he'd take the same stand though.

Yep we can guess how someone "might" feel, but it's only guesswork. No doubt we can be pretty confident how Adam Goodes felt. That doesn't mean all people of Aboriginal descent would feel the same.

I am not into "thought experiment"s. Facts are Adam was called the names by players and didn't choose to "take a stand". A 13yo girl called him a name and he saw the opportunity to do a Nicky Winmar. Eddie McGuire made similar comments and there was silence.

How is timing everything in regard to this situation?

I don't think the age is irrelevant. She's been treated appallingly for her age. I don't know how some are so sure she intended the sledge in a racist fashion. She said she wasn't aware of it and her friend had called Mumford an ape earlier. It seems convenient for some to assume she's a liar. Same as people not believing others had never heard of ape as a racist issue before.

Yes the reference can obviously be construed as racist. That's something I'm sure many have learned from this. "Chocco" is a racist term too yet it's used widely on here without causing issues. Even if Mark embraces it as a nickname there could be plenty of others who'd take offence. I wonder if Adam would react if the girl called him chocco over the fence.

I agree 100% with your last line. I feel that way about any abuse of other people whether racist or otherwise. We shouldn't swear, abuse, insult, indulge in name-calling anyone regardless of the colour, race or creed in my humble opinion. Many on this forum seem to disagree.

You have pointed to reverse situations where you or others have been abused by Indigenous. It comes across as tit for tat and as though there is no difference. That is what I don't understand in terms of "your stance". I agree that all racism is bad I just don't agree that all racism is the same.

On "facts" her intentions are not facts, her words are. And I have never accused her of lying only pointed out that her intentions are a side issue. Talk of them dilutes the discussion the words she spoke are racist when directed at a black man. If people didn't know, now they do and any excuses are null and void.

On my thought experiment I think the timing matters. Goodes had given a press statement after the game and the issue was all over the news and the papers I can imagine him not wanting to spend the rest of his week on the issue when he had a game to play. The media circus would taken over everything had he continued. I don't think he squibbed on taking on McGuire. People who are focused on the girl and McGuire and drawing an inference that Goodes "chose" a soft target are giving a freekick to the racists IMO. It allows them to continue to vilify Goodes and excuse casual racism because it wasn't "really " racist anyway and Goodes is a pussy for going after a little girl.

I'll keep saying it Rosy, it isn't about the girl. It was the words. Language is powerful. Goodes didn't "choose " her. He couldn't have even known it was her until after he reacted. The focus on her is misplaced and if she has been treated badly it is not on Goodes. It is on her family or friends who didn't go with her when she was removed it is on the papers and TV that plastered her face everywhere but that isn't on Goodes.

 

[Liverpool]

I don't think he squibbed on taking on McGuire. People who are focused on the girl and McGuire and drawing an inference that Goodes "chose" a soft target are giving a freekick to the racists IMO. It allows them to continue to vilify Goodes and excuse casual racism because it wasn't "really " racist anyway and Goodes is a pussy for going after a little girl. I'll keep saying it Rosy, it isn't about the girl. It was the words. Language is powerful. Goodes didn't "choose " her.

*smile* Knighters.

Its nothing to do with the language otherwise why didn't he protest so vehemently in the past?:

"To come to the boundary line and hear a 13 year old girl call me an 'ape', and it's not the first time on a footy field that I've been referred to as a 'monkey' or an 'ape', it was shattering."
Sadly, this incident isn't the first time Goodes has experienced racism whilst playing in the AFL.
He said opposition players have racially vilified him during games over the past ten years.

http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/news/2013-05-25/goodes-gutted-by-incident


He's a squib and chose his target well.

To oblige your "thought-game"...I will give it 5 seconds right now:
If McGuire had said his comments first, he would have been given the same latitude Goodes CHOSE to give players and others who have supposedly vilified him over the last 10 years of playing.
Why?
Because McGuire isn't a 13 year old girl.

Anyways, he got his moment in the limelight and got "martyred" by the gullible like yourself.

 

[Willo]

Taking the girl's word at face value, that she didn't know it was a racial comment is fair enough imo. But the truly sad indictment is that she didn't know and going by comments on PRE neither did a lot of others.
Goes more to the point of more "education" is needed by society as a whole. Ignorance is still rife.
But to me, Goodes may have had ample opportunities previously (going by his comments) to bring this to the fore. Why he didn't, I've no idea. It's something only he knows.
But until you "walk in their shoes" it's something that a lot don't experience.
But there is a point too, that it's a two way street. Respect and being educated as to what's acceptable should be paramount to all colours, creeds and religions. Not just one portion (or colour) of society.

 

[Rosy]

Taking the girl's word at face value, that she didn't know it was a racial comment is fair enough imo. But the truly sad indictment is that she didn't know and going by comments on PRE neither did a lot of others.

I'm not sure it's a sad indictment that people weren't aware of the fact the comment could be racist. To me it's a good thing they've never experienced or come across that usage or interpretation of the word in their life. I certainly hadn't.