Palestine and Israel

[DavidSSS]

Blame Hamas.
If not for their atrocities on October 7, none of this would have occurred.
Hamas dgaf about Palestinian deaths, they believe they’re all martyrs going to paradise . As long as Hamas achieve their aim. Murdering innocent Israelis and provoking the response they sought…Non Palestinians condemning Israel while disremembering Hamas atrocities. Hamas knew the outcome but didn’t give a fig.

And Hamas just decided to attack because it was a slow day and they were bored?

Blame Israel, the Hamas attack would not have happened if not for the Israeli oppression of Palestinians.

DS

 

[MD Jazz]

You won’t convince me otherwise

This is the problem IMO. You come to the thread completely close minded. You've already taken a side, done your "research" and nothing posted will change your mind.

This is when logic and critical thinking take a back seat.

 

[MD Jazz]

The thing about discounting the importance of Oct 7 as it relates to the current state of affairs is that by doing so any real sense of agency is removed from Hamas and the Palestinian civilians who participated in that barbarism as if they are automatons completely powerless to make independent conscious decisions due to some mysterious force of past events.

Anyway, here's Sam Harris' latest and interesting take on events where he identifies 5 myths about Israel and the war in Gaza. He's released it as a public service announcement so no paywall. He believes the myths are:
1. Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza
2. International humanitarian law requires that Israel's response to Palestinian aggression be 'proportional.'
3. The Jews are colonisers and the Palestinians are indigenous people
4. The atrocities committed by Hamas and over 1,000 Palestinian civilians on Oct 7 were a legitimate response to oppression
5. Th 2 sides in this conflict are equally civilised, equally entitled to respect and equally worth protecting.

Sam Harris | #351 - 5 Myths about Israel and the War in Gaza

Join neuroscientist, philosopher, and best-selling author Sam Harris as he explores some of the most pressing and controversial questions of our time.

www.samharris.org

Intersting the order of the myths.

Who is saying the atrocities were a legitimate response to oppression? I have seen people post on this thread that they can understand how the Jewish actions up to Oct 7 had helped create such a violent opposition. But no one here has said the Hamas actions are legitimate.

One thing you can guarantee is there will be more committed terrorists now following the Jewish response.

What is the death tally now? I imagine we have a few more Palestinians dead than Jews. But if I read the above correctly Harris believes Palestinian lives are not equally worth protecting?

I'm a big Sam Harris fan, but he does have some skin in the game here.

 

[Willo]

Intersting the order of the myths.

Who is saying the atrocities were a legitimate response to oppression? I have seen people post on this thread that they can understand how the Jewish actions up to Oct 7 had helped create such a violent opposition. But no one here has said the Hamas actions are legitimate.

One thing you can guarantee is there will be more committed terrorists now following the Jewish response.

What is the death tally now? I imagine we have a few more Palestinians dead than Jews. But if I read the above correctly Harris believes Palestinian lives are not equally worth protecting?

I'm a big Sam Harris fan, but he does have some skin in the game here.

IMaybe some posts have slipped past you. As an example see post #1581

 

[Willo]

This is the problem IMO. You come to the thread completely close minded. You've already taken a side, done your "research" and nothing posted will change your mind.

This is when logic and critical thinking take a back seat.

It might be a problem for some, not for me. I’ve just taken a different view.
Taken a side. As have many others, just a different side to me

 

[glantone]

Hey Nico, you're totally right it is just one man's opinion. And given your close friend is a Palestinian in Gaza who has suffered great family loses and is trying to protect an elderly and frail loved one if you can keep an open mind you're more evolved than most people on this planet.

Tbh, my heart is in my mouth everytime you post, fearing the worst personal news for you. Wish you well mate.

 

[Nico]

Hey Nico, you're totally right it is just one man's opinion. And given your close friend is a Palestinian in Gaza who has suffered great family loses and is trying to protect an elderly and frail loved one if you can keep an open mind you're more evolved than most people on this planet.

Tbh, my heart is in my mouth everytime you post, fearing the worst personal news for you. Wish you well mate.

Thanks for your concern glantone, I appreciate it!

I heard from Khaled a couple of days ago. He's living on a roadside with his family and wants to leave Gaza (exactly what Israel wants), he's had enough and seen enough. He sent me a video of the aftermath of an attack on a refugee camp where there was a disembowelled baby staring directly at the camera. I wish I didn't click play, as that image won't go away.

He's asked for my help, but doing a quick google yesterday, Aust, Canada, UK etc. are only accepting Palestinian refugees if there's a family connection. I'll keep on trying, but I'm not sure what I can do.

 

[MD Jazz]

I heard from Khaled a couple of days ago. He's living on a roadside with his family and wants to leave Gaza (exactly what Israel wants), he's had enough and seen enough. He sent me a video of the aftermath of an attack on a refugee camp where there was a disembowelled baby staring directly at the camera. I wish I didn't click play, as that image won't go away.

And this is what is so sad about the Israeli supporters who argue that the atrocities committed by Hamas were barbaric and inhuman.

The destruction, mayhem, disfigurement, pain etc caused by the Israeli response is barbaric. People burnt alive, blown apart, crushed. Dying slowly, alone and in pain.

And Israel will get what it wants, Palestinians to flee gaza, but what will be the long term cost in terms of future revenge? There will only be more pain, misery and suffering for both sides.

 

[mrposhman]

And this is what is so sad about the Israeli supporters who argue that the atrocities committed by Hamas were barbaric and inhuman.

The destruction, mayhem, disfigurement, pain etc caused by the Israeli response is barbaric. People burnt alive, blown apart, crushed. Dying slowly, alone and in pain.

And Israel will get what it wants, Palestinians to flee gaza, but what will be the long term cost in terms of future revenge? There will only be more pain, misery and suffering for both sides.

This is what I don't get.

You have people saying - well what do you expect Israel to do? I get that they were going to hit back and innocent people would die, BUT the indiscriminate bombing is a disgrace and without doubt a war crime. Will anyone stand up to them, no idea, but I provided a figure that has generally been reported around Afghanistan. The figure is that its widely accepted that allied forces killed something like 70k civilians in Afghanistan throughout the 13 year war to 2016. 70k in 13 years, we know people were complaining about that figure, but we have seen 25k in FOUR MONTHS in Gaza.

What Israel supporters don't seem to get, is this isn't some surgical strike to try and take out Hamas (and with the extent of Mossad they should have been able to do that), this is a clear demolition of everything there is in Gaza and whoever is still living there. Apparantly pretty much every hospital in Gaza has been destroyed which is against UN articles of war. Frankly they don't seem to care what they destroy, which indicates what people suspect and they just want to destroy and rebuild as part of Israel which is a disgrace that they aren't being called out on this more.

 

[Willo]

And this is what is so sad about the Israeli supporters who argue that the atrocities committed by Hamas were barbaric and inhuman.

The destruction, mayhem, disfigurement, pain etc caused by the Israeli response is barbaric. People burnt alive, blown apart, crushed. Dying slowly, alone and in pain.

And Israel will get what it wants, Palestinians to flee gaza, but what will be the long term cost in terms of future revenge? There will only be more pain, misery and suffering for both sides.

I haven’t tried to justify anything.
I think we all agree the death toll of civilians and the innocent is abhorrent. On either side, in all conflicts

 

[K3]

This is what I don't get.

You have people saying - well what do you expect Israel to do? I get that they were going to hit back and innocent people would die, BUT the indiscriminate bombing is a disgrace and without doubt a war crime. Will anyone stand up to them, no idea, but I provided a figure that has generally been reported around Afghanistan. The figure is that its widely accepted that allied forces killed something like 70k civilians in Afghanistan throughout the 13 year war to 2016. 70k in 13 years, we know people were complaining about that figure, but we have seen 25k in FOUR MONTHS in Gaza.

What Israel supporters don't seem to get, is this isn't some surgical strike to try and take out Hamas (and with the extent of Mossad they should have been able to do that), this is a clear demolition of everything there is in Gaza and whoever is still living there. Apparantly pretty much every hospital in Gaza has been destroyed which is against UN articles of war. Frankly they don't seem to care what they destroy, which indicates what people suspect and they just want to destroy and rebuild as part of Israel which is a disgrace that they aren't being called out on this more.

To add to this, the Israelis managed to kill some top brass of Hamas in Lebanon with a single missile, hitting the car he was being driven in.

A LOOOOONG way from the carpet bombing and white phosphorous bombs being dropped on Palestinian civilians et.al. Also, what phosphorous is a banned substance in international humanitarian law.

Evidence of Israel's unlawful use of white phosphorus in southern Lebanon as cross-border hostilities escalate

The Israeli army fired artillery shells containing white phosphorus, an incendiary weapon, in military operations along Lebanon’s southern border between 10 and 16 October 2023.

www.amnesty.org

Imagine the (warranted) outcry by many if anyone used this against the Israeli population, but against us brown-skinned folk... *hears crickets*

 

[glantone]

Nico, I recently watched a podcast hosted by Ali Rizvi (a well known ex muslim but strong practicing cultural muslim ) and a Palestinian woman who was desperately trying to get her family out at least into Egypt who have bumped up the border crossing price from pre-war $400 per person to $10,000. She started a 'go fund me' page. I'm sure a lot of pr-enders including myself would be only too willing to contribute what they can.

 

[Nico]

Nico, I recently watched a podcast hosted by Ali Rizvi (a well known ex muslim but strong practicing cultural muslim ) and a Palestinian woman who was desperately trying to get her family out at least into Egypt who have bumped up the border crossing price from pre-war $400 per person to $10,000. She started a 'go fund me' page. I'm sure a lot of pr-enders including myself would be only too willing to contribute what they can.

Thanks for that. Khaled mentioned this a few weeks ago and said it was $7k, but not surprised that it has possibly increased to $10k.

Go fund me is a great idea, and I have raised this with him. I'll create a campaign if he's agreeable.

Thanks again!

 

[Nico]

To add to this, the Israelis managed to kill some top brass of Hamas in Lebanon with a single missile, hitting the car he was being driven in.

A LOOOOONG way from the carpet bombing and white phosphorous bombs being dropped on Palestinian civilians et.al. Also, what phosphorous is a banned substance in international humanitarian law.

Evidence of Israel's unlawful use of white phosphorus in southern Lebanon as cross-border hostilities escalate

The Israeli army fired artillery shells containing white phosphorus, an incendiary weapon, in military operations along Lebanon’s southern border between 10 and 16 October 2023.

www.amnesty.org

Imagine the (warranted) outcry by many if anyone used this against the Israeli population, but against us brown-skinned folk... *hears crickets*

You forgot the use of 2,000 pounds bombs in the densely populated Gaza which have a fragmentation radius of 365 metres (58 soccer fields in area)

International humanitarian law prohibits indiscriminate bombing (which 2000 lb bombs in a residential area undoubtedly is), but Israel don't give a *smile*. War crimes and breaking international humanitarian law is an everyday occurrence in Israel.

Even the Yanks don't use 2000 lb bombs anywhere near residential areas. With their offensive with ISIS, they dropped one 2000 lb bomb. Israel have dropped over 500 in Gaza.
Former US State Department adviser Larry Lewis said the October 31 Jabalya strike (yes, the Israelis dropped a 2000 lb bomb on a goddamn refugee camp) was “something we would never see the US doing.” “It certainly appears that (Israel’s) tolerance for civilian harm compared to expected operational benefits is significantly different than what we would accept as the US,” Lewis said.

In other words, Israel are crazy *smiles* who don't give a *smile*...and there are people on this site who support this evil regime.

https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html

 

[Nico]

Hmm, now UNRWA workers accused of being involved in the Hamas terror murders on October 7.
Some nations withholding human funds for Gaza.

Australia, Italy and others halt funding to U.N. agency over claim staff involved in Hamas attack on Israel

Australia, Italy, the U.K. and other key donors halted funding to U.N. agency over claim staff involved in Hamas' attack on Israel on Oct. 7.

www.cbsnews.com

Not very good news for Gaza’s people. Just goes to show what Israel is up against when terrorists infiltrate U.N. Humanitarian services.
Sneaky bastards, maybe the U.N. needs to do more to vet workers and their own facilities.
Honourable, decent, hardworking aid workers would be appalled

UN chief issues plea after Australia pauses funding for Palestinian refugee agency over October 7 claims

A growing list of countries are pausing funding for the United Nations refugee agency for Palestinians, after Israel alleged some of the agency's staff were involved in the October 7 terrorist attacks.

www.abc.net.au

You do understand that the allegations (still not proved) made by Mark Regev, an adviser to Netanyahu were made hours after the ICJ announcement, which among other things, the ICJ said they would continue investigating genocide by Israel?

Classic diversion tactics. Look over there everyone, there's nothing to see here!

 

[Harry]

Russiagate & Gaza

Instead of criticizing a government credibly accused of genocide, a leading Democrat applies a debunked partisan smear to pro-Palestine protesters and wants the F.B.I. to investigate them, writes Elizabeth Vos. By Elizabeth Vos Special to Consortium News Just a few years ago, the Russiagate

consortiumnews.com

 

[Nico]

It might be a problem for some, not for me. I’ve just taken a different view.
Taken a side. As have many others, just a different side to me

Yep, you've taken the side of a genocidal regime that commits multiple war crimes and breaks international humanitarian law without a second thought.

A regime which as of 2017, has illegally and often with violence, demolished over 50,000 homes owned by Palestinians in the West Bank.

Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession

Mass human rights violations during the 50-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip have devastated the lives of millions of Palestinians.

www.amnesty.org

Your side has detained 6,420 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank since Oct. 7, including more than 400 children, 215 women and 51 journalists. Over 3290 are held without charge, cannot have legal representation, and can be held indefinitely. ie. kidnapped.

More than 6,400 Palestinians arrested by Israel in West Bank since Oct. 7

Detainees include 215 women, 400 children, 51 journalists, according to prisoners’ affairs groups - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Your side tortures, humiliates and degrades Palestinians. Have a read of this document which is a brief of Israeli torture up to 2008: https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde150402008en.pdf

Yep, you've taken a side alright.

 

[Harry]

Your side has detained 6,420 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank since Oct. 7, including more than 400 children, 215 women and 51 journalists. Over 3290 are held without charge, cannot have legal representation, and can be held indefinitely. ie. kidnapped.

There's been alot of media reporting about the 100 or so Israeli hostages - how about the thousands of Palestinian hostages ? Only Israeli lives matter in western media.

 

[Nico]

There's been alot of media reporting about the 100 or so Israeli hostages - how about the thousands of Palestinian hostages ? Only Israeli lives matter in western media.

Yes. Israelis look like us. Palestinians have brown skin and beards.

White skin = good, brown skin = bad.

 

[Harry]

You do understand that the allegations (still not proved) made by Mark Regev, an adviser to Netanyahu were made hours after the ICJ announcement, which among other things, the ICJ said they would continue investigating genocide by Israel?

Classic diversion tactics. Look over there everyone, there's nothing to see here!

Pathetic of the Aust Govt to halt funding without a proper investigation.