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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Palestine and Israel
- Thread starter the next big thing
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Re: Not Good News From Israel
Just announced on nine that Israel has started sending a small ground force contingent into Lebanon to help them wipe out Hezbollah targets which have so far escaped the bombardment so far.....this might or might not lead to a full scale ground invasion. Geeesh, I just feel so bloody wrotten about the inocent people over in that part of the world that are dying every day.... :-[
Just announced on nine that Israel has started sending a small ground force contingent into Lebanon to help them wipe out Hezbollah targets which have so far escaped the bombardment so far.....this might or might not lead to a full scale ground invasion. Geeesh, I just feel so bloody wrotten about the inocent people over in that part of the world that are dying every day.... :-[
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Regardless of the content,I still believe that a PM shouldn't be made public on the boards.
Thats its function,to message privately not publically.
Regardless of the content,I still believe that a PM shouldn't be made public on the boards.
Thats its function,to message privately not publically.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
This thread was travelling quite well, I even learnt facts I never knew from both sides of the table, however The Next Big Thing has broken protocol and should never have posted L&B's PM in the first place, regardless what the content was.
We have all learnt in the past that we can block annoying PM's, and if this hasn't been the first he had received then TNBT should have put a blocker on L&B's PM's, however it was the first time then other measures could have taken place.
The Next Big Thing, all I can say your actions are very low and you have taken '*smile* weak' to the next level, I'm ashamed at what you have displayed to the world, and as for L&B, we'll leave that for a later time.
This thread was travelling quite well, I even learnt facts I never knew from both sides of the table, however The Next Big Thing has broken protocol and should never have posted L&B's PM in the first place, regardless what the content was.
We have all learnt in the past that we can block annoying PM's, and if this hasn't been the first he had received then TNBT should have put a blocker on L&B's PM's, however it was the first time then other measures could have taken place.
The Next Big Thing, all I can say your actions are very low and you have taken '*smile* weak' to the next level, I'm ashamed at what you have displayed to the world, and as for L&B, we'll leave that for a later time.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
In the past where people have disagreed with me on an open forum, certain people have felt it was better to really give me a serve on a PM.
Personally, I find it gutless.....if you really feel strong about a topic on the open forum, such as the Israel/Lebanon crisis, then say your bit on the open forum where everyone can read what you say.
Don't stoop to personally attacking individuals on a PM! :
Maybe "Next Big Thing" was wrong in posting the PM, but it also did show what type of person Lids&Bling is, and pretty much proves what I've been saying the whole time:
You cannot reason or negotiate with these type of people!
When is everyone going to understand this?
Trust me, I'd love to see the whole thing end in a diplomatic way....I'd love to see Bin-laden and Bush sit down over a beer and work out exactly what each other wants....but it isn't going to happen.
These people only understand violence.....suicide bombs, beheadings, kidnappings, etc.
Israel have learnt this over time, that violence is the only language they know....and this is why we are seeing them take more of an 'action' approach, rather than a 'talking to a brick wall' approach.
In the past where people have disagreed with me on an open forum, certain people have felt it was better to really give me a serve on a PM.
Personally, I find it gutless.....if you really feel strong about a topic on the open forum, such as the Israel/Lebanon crisis, then say your bit on the open forum where everyone can read what you say.
Don't stoop to personally attacking individuals on a PM! :
Maybe "Next Big Thing" was wrong in posting the PM, but it also did show what type of person Lids&Bling is, and pretty much proves what I've been saying the whole time:
You cannot reason or negotiate with these type of people!
When is everyone going to understand this?
Trust me, I'd love to see the whole thing end in a diplomatic way....I'd love to see Bin-laden and Bush sit down over a beer and work out exactly what each other wants....but it isn't going to happen.
These people only understand violence.....suicide bombs, beheadings, kidnappings, etc.
Israel have learnt this over time, that violence is the only language they know....and this is why we are seeing them take more of an 'action' approach, rather than a 'talking to a brick wall' approach.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Its just a bloody shame that it comes with so many inocent people loosing their lives in Lebanon and Israel though. As for PM's, ive spoken about it before so im not gunna go there again. PEACE
Liverpool said:In the past where people have disagreed with me on an open forum, certain people have felt it was better to really give me a serve on a PM.
Personally, I find it gutless.....if you really feel strong about a topic on the open forum, such as the Israel/Lebanon crisis, then say your bit on the open forum where everyone can read what you say.
Don't stoop to personally attacking individuals on a PM! :
Maybe "Next Big Thing" was wrong in posting the PM, but it also did show what type of person Lids&Bling is, and pretty much proves what I've been saying the whole time:
You cannot reason or negotiate with these type of people!
When is everyone going to understand this?
Trust me, I'd love to see the whole thing end in a diplomatic way....I'd love to see Bin-laden and Bush sit down over a beer and work out exactly what each other wants....but it isn't going to happen.
These people only understand violence.....suicide bombs, beheadings, kidnappings, etc.
Israel have learnt this over time, that violence is the only language they know....and this is why we are seeing them take more of an 'action' approach, rather than a 'talking to a brick wall' approach.
Its just a bloody shame that it comes with so many inocent people loosing their lives in Lebanon and Israel though. As for PM's, ive spoken about it before so im not gunna go there again. PEACE
Re: Not Good News From Israel
OK,
Let's start with an interesting trivia question, "What do Abraham, Saladin & Sadam Hussein all have in common? They were all born in the area of modern day Iraq."
Chapter 1 - The Middle East, circa 1500BC - 1100BC
It will deal with who occupied the land prior to the arrival of Abraham & the early Hebrews into Canaan, and the arrival of the Phillistines. The empires around it.
Well, this isn't entirely true. Checking tonight in my book, "The Bible As History, Werner Keller, Book Club Associates, London, 1956, an archeological discovery in 1933, near Abu Kemal between Damascus and Mosul where it cuts the Euphrates, uncovered 23,600 almost perfectly preserved clay tablets describing the kingdom of Mari about 1900 BC. They describe the central city of Haran, and actually name Abraham's immediate forefathers, Peleg, Serug, Nahor and his father Terah. So Abraham in Haran is dated at 1900BC.
At this time there is major trade between the ancient Egyptians & the Phoenicians. Coastal towns like Tyre, Ugarit (now Ras Sharma) & Byblos are Eqyptian outposts ruled by Egytian consuls. The area of modern Israel is very thinly populated but is being colonised by a fresh wave of Canaanite/Semitic wanderers. he Egyptians call the area of Israel & Syria together as "Retenu" with the first city that Abraham encounters on his entering the area being Shechem or "Sekmem". This is under Egyptian sovereignty. Abraham is amongst many Canaanites who settle in the area. Abraham purchases land about and including modern day Hebron. His tomb, until destroyed by Palestinian terrorists only a decade ago, was located in Hebron.
(Why would anybody worth respecting destroy a near 4000 year old tomb common to the 3 major Western religions? Because they are not worth respecting.)
So we have Abraham at 1900BC, and Moses follows 645 years later about 1255BC.
The area has altered with the decline of ancient Egyptian empire.
The emergence of Philistines corresponds roughly with the fall of Troy. The Bronze Age cities of Mycenae & Sparta are destroyed by Indo-European (Iron Age) invasion about 1150BC. Greek migrations otherwise known as "Dorian Migration" sees the remains of the Bronze Age Greeks conquer & resettle in cities already established such as Gaza & Ashkelon and call themselves Philistia. This was the basis for the name Palestine, but Philistia only covered a handful of small coastal towns known now as the Gaza Strip. Futher north, Tyre, Sidon & Byblos remain the kingdom of Phoenicia. The current country of Jordan is occupied by the ancient Edomites, Ammonites & Moabites, whilst Syria is occupied by the Arameans. In the centre is Canaan.
Canaan is where Moses & Aaron arrives with the Hebrews as we said 1255BC . They reconquer their territory that was occupied by the Canaanite tribesmen after the earlier Hebrews were put into slavery by the Egyptians.
Chapter 2 - The Rise & Fall of the Kingdom of David, 1100BC - 200AD
Will tell of the moulding of Hebrew settlers into a kingdom, the Babylonian expulsion, the return, the Hasmonian Kingdom, the Roman expulsion.
Saul turns the Hebrew realm into a kingdom in 1010BC. He is crowned at Hebron, but is killed by the Phillistines on the plain of Jezreel. In 1006BC, David becomes the "Lion of Judah" and conquers the surrounding tribes. He builds an empire that includes Damascus in the north, Ramoth-Gilead in the east, and Beersheba (translating to "The Seven Wells" of Ishmael" in the south. He builds a new capital "Jerusalem" on the rubble of an old Jebusite town. The Philistines still occupy the Gaza Strip, and the Phoenicians still occupy Tyre, Sidon & Byblos. Solomon, David's son, builds the First Temple.
The Kingdom of David continues until the northern half, including Samaria, is taken by Sennacrib & the Assyrians in 701BC. The southern half, Judea, is conquered by Nebuchadnezzar & the Babylonians in 587BC. The Judeans are exiled into captivity.
A new Babylonian empire is created by Cyrus the Great in 539BC. The Jews were given back Judea by Cyrus, (Esther the Jewess was his wife). Nehemiah & Ezra rebuild Jerusalem including the New Temple.
In 332BC, Alexander & the Macedonians conquered Judea as part of their greater empire.
In 168BC it was conquered back from the descendants of the Macedonians, the Seleucids, by the famous Judah Maccabee "The Hammer". The Maccabees set up a new Jewish "Hasmonean" Judea until it was incorporated into the Roman Empire by Pompey in 63BC, with Herod as king from 39-4BC. This was about the time Jesus was born. Another Jewish revolt, in 70AD, against the Romans led to the destruction of the New Temple and the expulsion of all Jews from Judea.
This exile was to last until the 20th century.
My other reference for this commentary is "The Penguin Atlas Of World History Vol.1", Penguin Books, originally published by Deutscher Taschenbuch, Munich, Germany, 1964.
So in Chronological order we have:
1900BC - the arrival of various Semitic tribes including Abraham & the Hebrews.
1255BC - the Exodus & Moses.
1150BC - the arrival of the Philistines.
1006BC - the Kingdom of David.
701BC - the conquering of Samaria by the Assyrians.
587BC - the sacking of Jerusalem & the Babylonian exile.
539BC - the return of the Judeans & the rebuilding of the Temple.
332BC - Alexander & the Macedonians.
168BC - Judah Maccabee retakes Jerusalem from the Seleucids.
70AD - the final destruction of the New Temple & the Roman exile of all Judeans.
I hope you enjoy this.
OK,
Let's start with an interesting trivia question, "What do Abraham, Saladin & Sadam Hussein all have in common? They were all born in the area of modern day Iraq."
Chapter 1 - The Middle East, circa 1500BC - 1100BC
It will deal with who occupied the land prior to the arrival of Abraham & the early Hebrews into Canaan, and the arrival of the Phillistines. The empires around it.
Well, this isn't entirely true. Checking tonight in my book, "The Bible As History, Werner Keller, Book Club Associates, London, 1956, an archeological discovery in 1933, near Abu Kemal between Damascus and Mosul where it cuts the Euphrates, uncovered 23,600 almost perfectly preserved clay tablets describing the kingdom of Mari about 1900 BC. They describe the central city of Haran, and actually name Abraham's immediate forefathers, Peleg, Serug, Nahor and his father Terah. So Abraham in Haran is dated at 1900BC.
At this time there is major trade between the ancient Egyptians & the Phoenicians. Coastal towns like Tyre, Ugarit (now Ras Sharma) & Byblos are Eqyptian outposts ruled by Egytian consuls. The area of modern Israel is very thinly populated but is being colonised by a fresh wave of Canaanite/Semitic wanderers. he Egyptians call the area of Israel & Syria together as "Retenu" with the first city that Abraham encounters on his entering the area being Shechem or "Sekmem". This is under Egyptian sovereignty. Abraham is amongst many Canaanites who settle in the area. Abraham purchases land about and including modern day Hebron. His tomb, until destroyed by Palestinian terrorists only a decade ago, was located in Hebron.
(Why would anybody worth respecting destroy a near 4000 year old tomb common to the 3 major Western religions? Because they are not worth respecting.)
So we have Abraham at 1900BC, and Moses follows 645 years later about 1255BC.
The area has altered with the decline of ancient Egyptian empire.
The emergence of Philistines corresponds roughly with the fall of Troy. The Bronze Age cities of Mycenae & Sparta are destroyed by Indo-European (Iron Age) invasion about 1150BC. Greek migrations otherwise known as "Dorian Migration" sees the remains of the Bronze Age Greeks conquer & resettle in cities already established such as Gaza & Ashkelon and call themselves Philistia. This was the basis for the name Palestine, but Philistia only covered a handful of small coastal towns known now as the Gaza Strip. Futher north, Tyre, Sidon & Byblos remain the kingdom of Phoenicia. The current country of Jordan is occupied by the ancient Edomites, Ammonites & Moabites, whilst Syria is occupied by the Arameans. In the centre is Canaan.
Canaan is where Moses & Aaron arrives with the Hebrews as we said 1255BC . They reconquer their territory that was occupied by the Canaanite tribesmen after the earlier Hebrews were put into slavery by the Egyptians.
Chapter 2 - The Rise & Fall of the Kingdom of David, 1100BC - 200AD
Will tell of the moulding of Hebrew settlers into a kingdom, the Babylonian expulsion, the return, the Hasmonian Kingdom, the Roman expulsion.
Saul turns the Hebrew realm into a kingdom in 1010BC. He is crowned at Hebron, but is killed by the Phillistines on the plain of Jezreel. In 1006BC, David becomes the "Lion of Judah" and conquers the surrounding tribes. He builds an empire that includes Damascus in the north, Ramoth-Gilead in the east, and Beersheba (translating to "The Seven Wells" of Ishmael" in the south. He builds a new capital "Jerusalem" on the rubble of an old Jebusite town. The Philistines still occupy the Gaza Strip, and the Phoenicians still occupy Tyre, Sidon & Byblos. Solomon, David's son, builds the First Temple.
The Kingdom of David continues until the northern half, including Samaria, is taken by Sennacrib & the Assyrians in 701BC. The southern half, Judea, is conquered by Nebuchadnezzar & the Babylonians in 587BC. The Judeans are exiled into captivity.
A new Babylonian empire is created by Cyrus the Great in 539BC. The Jews were given back Judea by Cyrus, (Esther the Jewess was his wife). Nehemiah & Ezra rebuild Jerusalem including the New Temple.
In 332BC, Alexander & the Macedonians conquered Judea as part of their greater empire.
In 168BC it was conquered back from the descendants of the Macedonians, the Seleucids, by the famous Judah Maccabee "The Hammer". The Maccabees set up a new Jewish "Hasmonean" Judea until it was incorporated into the Roman Empire by Pompey in 63BC, with Herod as king from 39-4BC. This was about the time Jesus was born. Another Jewish revolt, in 70AD, against the Romans led to the destruction of the New Temple and the expulsion of all Jews from Judea.
This exile was to last until the 20th century.
My other reference for this commentary is "The Penguin Atlas Of World History Vol.1", Penguin Books, originally published by Deutscher Taschenbuch, Munich, Germany, 1964.
So in Chronological order we have:
1900BC - the arrival of various Semitic tribes including Abraham & the Hebrews.
1255BC - the Exodus & Moses.
1150BC - the arrival of the Philistines.
1006BC - the Kingdom of David.
701BC - the conquering of Samaria by the Assyrians.
587BC - the sacking of Jerusalem & the Babylonian exile.
539BC - the return of the Judeans & the rebuilding of the Temple.
332BC - Alexander & the Macedonians.
168BC - Judah Maccabee retakes Jerusalem from the Seleucids.
70AD - the final destruction of the New Temple & the Roman exile of all Judeans.
I hope you enjoy this.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Saw those pictures today outcast. It was disgraceful on the part of the Israeli military to allow those children to write hateful messages on munitions that are killing innocent people.
And Phantom you mentioned earlier that the Israeli military were trying to target Hezbollah targets. Well I don't consider the Beirut airport, ports, major infrastructure and a red cross truck targets controlled by Hezbollah!
Nothing will change in Middle East while you have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in third world conditions in refuge camps while being treated like second class citizens.
People need to understand what Phantom has stated above and realise that the Jews had been in exiled for 2000 years. Then in 1948 they were given Israel. These were not unoccupied lands! As a result of the establishment of the state of Israel and subsequent wars 3 million Palestinians were displaced. Many hundreds of thousand of these families have lived in refuge camps for 2-3 generations now.
No wonder their p!ssed
outcast said:
Saw those pictures today outcast. It was disgraceful on the part of the Israeli military to allow those children to write hateful messages on munitions that are killing innocent people.
And Phantom you mentioned earlier that the Israeli military were trying to target Hezbollah targets. Well I don't consider the Beirut airport, ports, major infrastructure and a red cross truck targets controlled by Hezbollah!
Nothing will change in Middle East while you have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in third world conditions in refuge camps while being treated like second class citizens.
People need to understand what Phantom has stated above and realise that the Jews had been in exiled for 2000 years. Then in 1948 they were given Israel. These were not unoccupied lands! As a result of the establishment of the state of Israel and subsequent wars 3 million Palestinians were displaced. Many hundreds of thousand of these families have lived in refuge camps for 2-3 generations now.
No wonder their p!ssed
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Yes, I saw those photos in the papers yesterday and thought that if the messages on the missiles were of hate then it would be disappointing. If the messages were pleas to stop the bombings then it could be looked at differently. As yet I haven't seen a transcription of what was written by the child on the missile. Until then I can't be certain. If it is true then those responsible deserve to be spoken to in extremely harsh terms.
In regard to Hezbollah targets. Modern war no longer dictates open battle on a battlefield between deployed armies. The Hezbollah have set up their military instillations within civilian zones. Their supplies from Syria & Iran are coming via air & road, therefore in modern warfare the strategy for the Israelis would primarily be to cut off the Hezbollah supply routes. By taking out the roads, bridges & airfields the Israelis have attempted to cut off Hezbollah supply routes. I'd imagine the Israelis would also want to cut off any escape routes that the Hezbollah might take. Modern guerilla warfare sees groups like Hezbiollah fire off their missiles then escape across foreign borders. Cut the roads, bridges & air and you cut off Hezbollah's escape route. The next phase should be encirclement of the Hezbollah positions. Be clear that the Israeli military instillations are clearly separate from Israeli civilian locations. The Hezbollah have not even tried to target Israeli military instillations, they have launched their rockets strictly and directly at civilian locations within Israeli cities. They even managed to hit civillians in the Arab quarter of Nazareth yesterday. But you'd expect that of Hezbollah.
As for Palestinians living in refugee camps within Israel. Israelis don't force Palestinians into camps. They chose to retreat into ghettos of their own making. There are 70,000 Druze who live freely in Israel around Mt Carmel and Galilee. They have their own farms, drive taxis, serve in the Israeli army, and make futures for themselves. Many other Palestinians do the same. There are many settlements around Israel, like Hebron, Beersheba, etc where Palestinians co-exist with other Israelis. But, yes, there are some couple of hundred thousand who chose to retreat into the Jerusalem ghettos in 1948 and haven't come out.
Yes people do need to now that the Jewish people did have a home in Israel for centuries before they were forceably evicted by the Romans. Their settlement of that land predates many of the groups that currently reside there. The recreation of the Israeli state, which really began with Britain's Balfour Declaration in 1915, was based on the political void in the middle east following the collapse of the Ottomon Turkish Empire.
Part of the problem lay in the manner the greater Middle East was redivided post WWI. The Arab areas were not divided as per groups of people, Sunnnis, Shi'ites, Druze, etc, but on the basis of favours to particular noble Arab families. This has led to intertribal inter-Arab hostilities that have also plagued the area in that same time.
Look at Iraq, no Jews in Iraq. If the Iraqis could live peacefully amongst themselves the UN troops would have been out of there ages ago. Same with Israel, if the Jews and Israel weren't there then the Arabs would be fighting wars amongst themselves anyway. The Druze in Syria face discrimination every day from other Muslims, as they have lived in the mountains for centuries to avoid extermination by mainstream Islam. In Israel the Druze actively participate in secular life free from their past discrimination.
By the way, Arab countries such as Syria, Jordan, etc have only been in existance since the 20th century too. So don't fall for the argument that Israel has only been around since 1948. The other Arab countries were created about the same time.
The story of the Jews & the Arabs is fascinating. I shall return to post chapter 3 about the diaspora & the rise of Islam tonight.
Yes, I saw those photos in the papers yesterday and thought that if the messages on the missiles were of hate then it would be disappointing. If the messages were pleas to stop the bombings then it could be looked at differently. As yet I haven't seen a transcription of what was written by the child on the missile. Until then I can't be certain. If it is true then those responsible deserve to be spoken to in extremely harsh terms.
In regard to Hezbollah targets. Modern war no longer dictates open battle on a battlefield between deployed armies. The Hezbollah have set up their military instillations within civilian zones. Their supplies from Syria & Iran are coming via air & road, therefore in modern warfare the strategy for the Israelis would primarily be to cut off the Hezbollah supply routes. By taking out the roads, bridges & airfields the Israelis have attempted to cut off Hezbollah supply routes. I'd imagine the Israelis would also want to cut off any escape routes that the Hezbollah might take. Modern guerilla warfare sees groups like Hezbiollah fire off their missiles then escape across foreign borders. Cut the roads, bridges & air and you cut off Hezbollah's escape route. The next phase should be encirclement of the Hezbollah positions. Be clear that the Israeli military instillations are clearly separate from Israeli civilian locations. The Hezbollah have not even tried to target Israeli military instillations, they have launched their rockets strictly and directly at civilian locations within Israeli cities. They even managed to hit civillians in the Arab quarter of Nazareth yesterday. But you'd expect that of Hezbollah.
As for Palestinians living in refugee camps within Israel. Israelis don't force Palestinians into camps. They chose to retreat into ghettos of their own making. There are 70,000 Druze who live freely in Israel around Mt Carmel and Galilee. They have their own farms, drive taxis, serve in the Israeli army, and make futures for themselves. Many other Palestinians do the same. There are many settlements around Israel, like Hebron, Beersheba, etc where Palestinians co-exist with other Israelis. But, yes, there are some couple of hundred thousand who chose to retreat into the Jerusalem ghettos in 1948 and haven't come out.
Yes people do need to now that the Jewish people did have a home in Israel for centuries before they were forceably evicted by the Romans. Their settlement of that land predates many of the groups that currently reside there. The recreation of the Israeli state, which really began with Britain's Balfour Declaration in 1915, was based on the political void in the middle east following the collapse of the Ottomon Turkish Empire.
Part of the problem lay in the manner the greater Middle East was redivided post WWI. The Arab areas were not divided as per groups of people, Sunnnis, Shi'ites, Druze, etc, but on the basis of favours to particular noble Arab families. This has led to intertribal inter-Arab hostilities that have also plagued the area in that same time.
Look at Iraq, no Jews in Iraq. If the Iraqis could live peacefully amongst themselves the UN troops would have been out of there ages ago. Same with Israel, if the Jews and Israel weren't there then the Arabs would be fighting wars amongst themselves anyway. The Druze in Syria face discrimination every day from other Muslims, as they have lived in the mountains for centuries to avoid extermination by mainstream Islam. In Israel the Druze actively participate in secular life free from their past discrimination.
By the way, Arab countries such as Syria, Jordan, etc have only been in existance since the 20th century too. So don't fall for the argument that Israel has only been around since 1948. The other Arab countries were created about the same time.
The story of the Jews & the Arabs is fascinating. I shall return to post chapter 3 about the diaspora & the rise of Islam tonight.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Sorry in advance if I'm wrong and or offending. I have always thought that Palestine was involved in WWII with the German's ect, and as a result of losing the war, the Brits, albeit after attacks from Jewish settlers, decided to hand over to Israel?? How far of the mark am I?? :-\
Sorry in advance if I'm wrong and or offending. I have always thought that Palestine was involved in WWII with the German's ect, and as a result of losing the war, the Brits, albeit after attacks from Jewish settlers, decided to hand over to Israel?? How far of the mark am I?? :-\
Re: Not Good News From Israel
In WWI, the Ottoman Turks were allied to the Germans. This resulted in battles around the Middle East. There were 3 primary campaigns by the British:
1. The Gallipoli disaster.
2. The equally disastrous Mesopotamian campaign that resulted in the surrender of the British at Kut.
3. The more successful Sinai/Allenby campaign that, after the victory of Beersheba, led to the capture of Jerusalem, Damascus & Turkish collapse.
Alongside the British campaign were the efforts of T.E.Lawrence & Prince Feisal in their guerilla campaign against the Turks. Feisal wanted leadership of his own indepenent nation as reward for his efforts. Unfortunately, He was not rewarded with this immediately after WWI. The British took over Palestine, whilst the French took Syria & Mesopotamia. (Don't know how the French got in there.)
The result of this was that during WWII, many of the Arab tribes took advantage of the situation to make agreements with Nazi Germany to harass French & British installations in exchange for weapons. There were no formal agreements made, and most of the noble Arab families stayed loyal to the Allies. The ones who'd made agreements with Germany were the ones who'd stayed loyal to the Ottoman Turks.
Come the end of WWII, the families that stayed loyal to Britain & France received as reward monarchy of their dominions, eg, Saudi Arabia, Trans-Jordan, Iran, Iraq, etc. Those who were not were left in the cold. The British maintained a mandate over Palestine.
The British, hit with wartime debt, really couldn't afford to maintain Palestine. Already in the 1920s & 30s, the area was being colonised by both European Jewish immigrants and other Arab immigrants seeking to fill the void left by the Ottoman Turks.
There was a partition of Palestine in 1947. Strangely, in that partition the British gave the whole of Jerusalem to the Jews. (It was later partially taken by the Arabs in 1948.) The British were secretly training the Jewish settlers into an organised army. This was headed by Viscount Orde Wingate, the hero of the WWII Burmese/Malaysian campaign against the Japanese. The arms for the new Israeli soldiers came as a gift from Chancellor Strauss of Bavaria who was trying to show some recompense after WWII. The Arabs were using the arms supplied to them by the Germans during WWII, and were largely Generalled by ex-Nazi commanders looking for a fresh opportunity. I'm sure there were plenty of secret post-WWII arms dealers around too.
There were many Palestinians, Druze & Arabs who sided with the Israelis in 1948, largely because they had differences with the other Arab tribes from Syria, Jordan etc. Many of the Israeli co-existing Arabs were murdered brutally by these other Arabs from Syria & Jordan.
In the 1948 war, Jordanian troops occupied part of the old city of Jerusalem. When the Israeli army arrived and surrounded the city, the Jordanians threatened to blow the whole city up unless the Israelis granted a ceasefire. The Israelis relented and that is why the Jordanians managed to hold onto the West Bank of the Jordan river after 1948 until 1967. In 1948 many disaffected Arabs left their homes, upon orders from their Muftis, and went to Jersusalem where they created a ghetto in the old city. That ghetto remains today.
So I hope that answers your question.
dukeos said:
In WWI, the Ottoman Turks were allied to the Germans. This resulted in battles around the Middle East. There were 3 primary campaigns by the British:
1. The Gallipoli disaster.
2. The equally disastrous Mesopotamian campaign that resulted in the surrender of the British at Kut.
3. The more successful Sinai/Allenby campaign that, after the victory of Beersheba, led to the capture of Jerusalem, Damascus & Turkish collapse.
Alongside the British campaign were the efforts of T.E.Lawrence & Prince Feisal in their guerilla campaign against the Turks. Feisal wanted leadership of his own indepenent nation as reward for his efforts. Unfortunately, He was not rewarded with this immediately after WWI. The British took over Palestine, whilst the French took Syria & Mesopotamia. (Don't know how the French got in there.)
The result of this was that during WWII, many of the Arab tribes took advantage of the situation to make agreements with Nazi Germany to harass French & British installations in exchange for weapons. There were no formal agreements made, and most of the noble Arab families stayed loyal to the Allies. The ones who'd made agreements with Germany were the ones who'd stayed loyal to the Ottoman Turks.
Come the end of WWII, the families that stayed loyal to Britain & France received as reward monarchy of their dominions, eg, Saudi Arabia, Trans-Jordan, Iran, Iraq, etc. Those who were not were left in the cold. The British maintained a mandate over Palestine.
The British, hit with wartime debt, really couldn't afford to maintain Palestine. Already in the 1920s & 30s, the area was being colonised by both European Jewish immigrants and other Arab immigrants seeking to fill the void left by the Ottoman Turks.
There was a partition of Palestine in 1947. Strangely, in that partition the British gave the whole of Jerusalem to the Jews. (It was later partially taken by the Arabs in 1948.) The British were secretly training the Jewish settlers into an organised army. This was headed by Viscount Orde Wingate, the hero of the WWII Burmese/Malaysian campaign against the Japanese. The arms for the new Israeli soldiers came as a gift from Chancellor Strauss of Bavaria who was trying to show some recompense after WWII. The Arabs were using the arms supplied to them by the Germans during WWII, and were largely Generalled by ex-Nazi commanders looking for a fresh opportunity. I'm sure there were plenty of secret post-WWII arms dealers around too.
There were many Palestinians, Druze & Arabs who sided with the Israelis in 1948, largely because they had differences with the other Arab tribes from Syria, Jordan etc. Many of the Israeli co-existing Arabs were murdered brutally by these other Arabs from Syria & Jordan.
In the 1948 war, Jordanian troops occupied part of the old city of Jerusalem. When the Israeli army arrived and surrounded the city, the Jordanians threatened to blow the whole city up unless the Israelis granted a ceasefire. The Israelis relented and that is why the Jordanians managed to hold onto the West Bank of the Jordan river after 1948 until 1967. In 1948 many disaffected Arabs left their homes, upon orders from their Muftis, and went to Jersusalem where they created a ghetto in the old city. That ghetto remains today.
So I hope that answers your question.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Does anybody elso think that people's expectations of our government when they are overseas are too high? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of Howard, but people these days seem to think that if the *smile* hits the fan while they are overseas the Aus government should instantly deploy massive resources to get them out regardless of the logistics of the situation. It happened during the New Orleans cyclone as well. People seem to think an Aussie helicopter should arrive instantly to ferry them home. Everyone these days seems to think they are the most important person in the world. My 2 cents.
Meanwhile they don't care 2 hoots that we are the only western nation that won't bring our citizens home, Hicks I'm talking about, to have a fair trial and humane prison.
Does anybody elso think that people's expectations of our government when they are overseas are too high? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of Howard, but people these days seem to think that if the *smile* hits the fan while they are overseas the Aus government should instantly deploy massive resources to get them out regardless of the logistics of the situation. It happened during the New Orleans cyclone as well. People seem to think an Aussie helicopter should arrive instantly to ferry them home. Everyone these days seems to think they are the most important person in the world. My 2 cents.
Meanwhile they don't care 2 hoots that we are the only western nation that won't bring our citizens home, Hicks I'm talking about, to have a fair trial and humane prison.
nitrotiger
" lets play like the tigers of old ! "
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Absolutely bang-on tigersnake.....I was thinking exactly the same thing with this little afterthought....
All these bloody blowins(sorry-I mean New Australianswith dual citizenship)come traipsing into the country,then tellin us that their way should be the way and that we Australians have got it wrong......
But when they get stuck overseas in a war situation or when the *smile* hits the fan ,theyre the bloody first to pull out their visas and claim AUSTRALIAN citizenship and Demand the Australian government help em out!Now!Pronto!Immediately!WE killed our last slaves!Crivens....any wonder there,s "racism"...... >
Absolutely bang-on tigersnake.....I was thinking exactly the same thing with this little afterthought....
All these bloody blowins(sorry-I mean New Australianswith dual citizenship)come traipsing into the country,then tellin us that their way should be the way and that we Australians have got it wrong......
But when they get stuck overseas in a war situation or when the *smile* hits the fan ,theyre the bloody first to pull out their visas and claim AUSTRALIAN citizenship and Demand the Australian government help em out!Now!Pronto!Immediately!WE killed our last slaves!Crivens....any wonder there,s "racism"...... >
Re: Not Good News From Israel
I have been told that US policy towards its citizens overseas is that it will pull all stops to get them out of any situation anywhere, but that those citizens will also receive a bill for services rendered.
I have been told that US policy towards its citizens overseas is that it will pull all stops to get them out of any situation anywhere, but that those citizens will also receive a bill for services rendered.
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