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Palestine and Israel
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Re: Not Good News From Israel
This is Hamas' position on respecting borders. Quoted from http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/nizar_rayyan_of_hamas_on_gods.php
Nizzar Rayyan, the Hamas leader who was killed, along with two of his wives and several of his children, in an Israeli bombing raid earlier this week, was one of the more bellicose Hamas leaders I have known.(snip)
There was no flexibility with Rayyan. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: "The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel." There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. "Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."
I asked him if he believed, as some Hamas theologians do (and certainly as many Hezbollah leaders do) that Jews are the "sons of pigs and apes." He gave me an interesting answer that reflects a myopic reading of the Koran. "Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce. So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people."
What are our crimes? I asked Rayyan. "You are murderers of the prophets and you have closed your ears to the Messenger of Allah," he said. "Jews tried to kill the Prophet, peace be unto him. All throughout history, you have stood in opposition to the word of God."
1eyedtiger said:
This is Hamas' position on respecting borders. Quoted from http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/nizar_rayyan_of_hamas_on_gods.php
Nizzar Rayyan, the Hamas leader who was killed, along with two of his wives and several of his children, in an Israeli bombing raid earlier this week, was one of the more bellicose Hamas leaders I have known.(snip)
There was no flexibility with Rayyan. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: "The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel." There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. "Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."
I asked him if he believed, as some Hamas theologians do (and certainly as many Hezbollah leaders do) that Jews are the "sons of pigs and apes." He gave me an interesting answer that reflects a myopic reading of the Koran. "Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce. So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people."
What are our crimes? I asked Rayyan. "You are murderers of the prophets and you have closed your ears to the Messenger of Allah," he said. "Jews tried to kill the Prophet, peace be unto him. All throughout history, you have stood in opposition to the word of God."
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Israel effectively declared war when they started building Jewish settlements outside their own territory and restricting Palistinian movements and trade. Or don't you think that's enough provocation?
Don't Jews believe that they should slaughter all non Jews too?
This has been raised in previous posts.
what's the difference?
You guys all need to sit down and watch Bad Boy Bubby. A great movie if you get through the first half hour or so but the bit where thesin of murder is explained to Bubby using the example of all the religions glad wrapping everyone else is a classic and probably the truth to it all. ;D
It's a shame that it takes such a movie to make sense of it all.
the claw said:
Israel effectively declared war when they started building Jewish settlements outside their own territory and restricting Palistinian movements and trade. Or don't you think that's enough provocation?
bdr said:
Don't Jews believe that they should slaughter all non Jews too?
This has been raised in previous posts.
what's the difference?
You guys all need to sit down and watch Bad Boy Bubby. A great movie if you get through the first half hour or so but the bit where thesin of murder is explained to Bubby using the example of all the religions glad wrapping everyone else is a classic and probably the truth to it all. ;D
It's a shame that it takes such a movie to make sense of it all.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
I dont understand the hatred for jews, goes back to Germany, Middle East all over the world, People who belong to the kkk hate blacks and jews. I have pure sympathy for the plight of the Jews and understand why they have equiped themselves so well. Lets hope this war is over soon but i doubt the hatred against the Jews will ever stop.....
I dont understand the hatred for jews, goes back to Germany, Middle East all over the world, People who belong to the kkk hate blacks and jews. I have pure sympathy for the plight of the Jews and understand why they have equiped themselves so well. Lets hope this war is over soon but i doubt the hatred against the Jews will ever stop.....
Re: Not Good News From Israel
No, Hamas say land isn't everything.
What part of this are you missing 1-eyed:
"Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
-Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, The Jerusalem Post, August 18, 2005
"Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006
"She [Hamas suicide bomber Re'em Al-Riyashi] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Associated Press, January 15, 2004
Sorry for repeating the same quotes but obviously people are missing the point of Hamas.
It isn't about land 1-eyed....it is about the annihilation of Israel. Full stop.
And along the way, global domination.
Its a pretty simple plan, people.
duro,
I think a lot of it is just jealousy.
Jews are seen to be successful in many fields with high-ranking positions in governments and business.
It is usually ill-educated sheep that seem to want to drive out the Jews...look at the Nazis burning books to try and keep everyone with a poor education and therefore unable to have views that were not instilled into them by the Nazi regime....look at the Islamic community in many of these countries today, brain-washed as children, loaded up to the hilt with hate and skewed versions of their religion.
You have the KKK in the USA, a lot of them uneducated southern morons who grew up out in the sticks of Alabama or something and brain-washed and taught to be jealous of what the Jews have and what they haven't got.
1eyedtiger said:
No, Hamas say land isn't everything.
What part of this are you missing 1-eyed:
"Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
-Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, The Jerusalem Post, August 18, 2005
"Tomorrow, our nation will sit on the throne of the world. This is not a figment of the imagination, but a fact. Tomorrow we will lead the world, Allah willing."
-Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006
"She [Hamas suicide bomber Re'em Al-Riyashi] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."
-Dr. Mahmud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, Associated Press, January 15, 2004
Sorry for repeating the same quotes but obviously people are missing the point of Hamas.
It isn't about land 1-eyed....it is about the annihilation of Israel. Full stop.
And along the way, global domination.
Its a pretty simple plan, people.
duro said:
duro,
I think a lot of it is just jealousy.
Jews are seen to be successful in many fields with high-ranking positions in governments and business.
It is usually ill-educated sheep that seem to want to drive out the Jews...look at the Nazis burning books to try and keep everyone with a poor education and therefore unable to have views that were not instilled into them by the Nazi regime....look at the Islamic community in many of these countries today, brain-washed as children, loaded up to the hilt with hate and skewed versions of their religion.
You have the KKK in the USA, a lot of them uneducated southern morons who grew up out in the sticks of Alabama or something and brain-washed and taught to be jealous of what the Jews have and what they haven't got.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
yes israel has at times decided the only way to stop *smile* from happenening is to move into and occupy land, but at the end of the day israel has always withdrawn. anyway what are we arguing here who fired first.
what happens if say israel disarms i can tell ya israel will be wiped of the face of the earth only a fool would think otherwise are you a fool.what happens if hamas disarms in gaze will the israelis wipe out palestine sheesh only a fool would think this. are you a fool. peace is easy to obtain all it takes is for hamas to recognise the israli state and disarm.there are no madmen wanting to wipe the palestinians of the map . the power for peace does not lie with israel it lies with hamas and the muslim community at large.
oh boy oh boy and im accused of being racist. the jews have had it within their power to annihilate most countries around them yet they dont.1eyedtiger said:
yes israel has at times decided the only way to stop *smile* from happenening is to move into and occupy land, but at the end of the day israel has always withdrawn. anyway what are we arguing here who fired first.
what happens if say israel disarms i can tell ya israel will be wiped of the face of the earth only a fool would think otherwise are you a fool.what happens if hamas disarms in gaze will the israelis wipe out palestine sheesh only a fool would think this. are you a fool. peace is easy to obtain all it takes is for hamas to recognise the israli state and disarm.there are no madmen wanting to wipe the palestinians of the map . the power for peace does not lie with israel it lies with hamas and the muslim community at large.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
First off, I don't have the answers to this complicated scenario. I have a question though. People are saying that Israel should hand back land they are occupying. Can someone please explain to me how Israel came to occupy this land? I always thought that land in excess of what they were originally given, came from wars with their neighbours which they fought and defeated. Is this the case? Or is there more to it?
First off, I don't have the answers to this complicated scenario. I have a question though. People are saying that Israel should hand back land they are occupying. Can someone please explain to me how Israel came to occupy this land? I always thought that land in excess of what they were originally given, came from wars with their neighbours which they fought and defeated. Is this the case? Or is there more to it?
Re: Not Good News From Israel
And Israel is all about the anniliation of Palistine.D
Once again, what's the difference?
I have a question for Phantom (only because you seem to have the background)
Don't get me wrong, I have no disrespect for the Jewish people. But I'd like an answer to the following question if you don't mind.
I have heard that in Australia, if a non Jewish moves into a street which is predominately Jewsish, the Jewish will try any way they can to force you out. They consider it their area and their's alone. I've also heard that the Jewish will only trade with their own kind, even if there are competitors in the same area with lower prices.
To the best of your knowledge, do these accusations have merit?
Once again, no disrespect, but these accusations seem to indicate a lack of willingness to interact with those from other races or religions. It is my experience that those who describe themselves as Aiustralian in this country are the only ones who do tolerate others. I don't care what race or religion my neighbours are and I'll have a drink with anyone anytime. It seems to me that it is those who come here and still identify themselves with their previous country, that like to live amongst their own and refuse to interact with the rest of us. This is not being against the Jewish, Greeks, Italians, Asians and others have their own areas where they live with others they can relate to. Not offically but it is just the same. But hey, that's human nature for you.
Whilst this maybe on the racial tolerence thread, I'm trying to point out that Australians aren't as racist as it seems.
The Jewish element of my question stems from my perception that the Jewsish tend to look and others as being lesser. I sincerely hope it's not the case. I like to get along with everyone.
Moving on, Sorry Phantom
I've just read your post claw. The US also have the power to anniliate the rest of the world along with all other nulcear capable countries so you can keep your high and mighty comments to yourself.
No one has explained the difference between the Jewsish religous texts demanding slaughter of all non believers and any other religous text. I'm an athiest so I suppose I'm a target for everyone even though I just want to live my life in peace. Which ironically, is probably what all those gods that others believe would want for me too.
Yes, if Israel disarms, it will be wiped. I never asked for that. I just asked for them to stick to their own territory. The borders agreed to at the time Israel was created. Let's take this one step at a time.
And Israel is all about the anniliation of Palistine.D
Once again, what's the difference?
I have a question for Phantom (only because you seem to have the background)
Don't get me wrong, I have no disrespect for the Jewish people. But I'd like an answer to the following question if you don't mind.
I have heard that in Australia, if a non Jewish moves into a street which is predominately Jewsish, the Jewish will try any way they can to force you out. They consider it their area and their's alone. I've also heard that the Jewish will only trade with their own kind, even if there are competitors in the same area with lower prices.
To the best of your knowledge, do these accusations have merit?
Once again, no disrespect, but these accusations seem to indicate a lack of willingness to interact with those from other races or religions. It is my experience that those who describe themselves as Aiustralian in this country are the only ones who do tolerate others. I don't care what race or religion my neighbours are and I'll have a drink with anyone anytime. It seems to me that it is those who come here and still identify themselves with their previous country, that like to live amongst their own and refuse to interact with the rest of us. This is not being against the Jewish, Greeks, Italians, Asians and others have their own areas where they live with others they can relate to. Not offically but it is just the same. But hey, that's human nature for you.
Whilst this maybe on the racial tolerence thread, I'm trying to point out that Australians aren't as racist as it seems.
The Jewish element of my question stems from my perception that the Jewsish tend to look and others as being lesser. I sincerely hope it's not the case. I like to get along with everyone.
Moving on, Sorry Phantom
I've just read your post claw. The US also have the power to anniliate the rest of the world along with all other nulcear capable countries so you can keep your high and mighty comments to yourself.
No one has explained the difference between the Jewsish religous texts demanding slaughter of all non believers and any other religous text. I'm an athiest so I suppose I'm a target for everyone even though I just want to live my life in peace. Which ironically, is probably what all those gods that others believe would want for me too.
Yes, if Israel disarms, it will be wiped. I never asked for that. I just asked for them to stick to their own territory. The borders agreed to at the time Israel was created. Let's take this one step at a time.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
you still chose to ignore yes ignore a simple scenario.
if your next door neigbor decides he doesnt like you and i can see why he wouldnt noone likes a racist anyway i digress your neighbor doesnt like you and decides hes going to force you put of the neighborhood or even kill ya . he petrol bombs your house firesw bullets into it you have called the police but nothing can be done your afraid for your family what do you do. knowing most do gooders nothing and when your kids are slaughtered you moan why me. sheesh we have become a bloody pathetic lot.
i will say again im accused of racism. after that post what a joke.1eyedtiger said:
you still chose to ignore yes ignore a simple scenario.
if your next door neigbor decides he doesnt like you and i can see why he wouldnt noone likes a racist anyway i digress your neighbor doesnt like you and decides hes going to force you put of the neighborhood or even kill ya . he petrol bombs your house firesw bullets into it you have called the police but nothing can be done your afraid for your family what do you do. knowing most do gooders nothing and when your kids are slaughtered you moan why me. sheesh we have become a bloody pathetic lot.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
If your neighbours are on their own land and not occupying yours, then I agree.
You still haven't explained the differnce between Jewish religious texts demanding the extermination of non Jews and those of other religious texts.
I don't think that anyone really understands my position here. As far as I'm concerned, if the two groups can't get along, then let them fight it out to the bitter end. The bit I don't agree with is the uneveness of the battle. If the US wants to arm Israel to the teeth, then arm Palistine to the teeth and let then let them slug it out on an even playing field.
Is that what you want?
You call it simple. It is far from simple.
If your neighbours are on their own land and not occupying yours, then I agree.
You still haven't explained the differnce between Jewish religious texts demanding the extermination of non Jews and those of other religious texts.
I don't think that anyone really understands my position here. As far as I'm concerned, if the two groups can't get along, then let them fight it out to the bitter end. The bit I don't agree with is the uneveness of the battle. If the US wants to arm Israel to the teeth, then arm Palistine to the teeth and let then let them slug it out on an even playing field.
Is that what you want?
You call it simple. It is far from simple.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
I'm sorry to say 1eyed, but you're way off the mark with your comments. And without trying to seem like a smart-a** (as you can see I'm a pretty infrequent poster) you really need to do some research into Judaism because what you're saying are the sort of ignorant remarks that lead to intolerance. Also you need to understand the different levels of Judaism, from ultra-Orthodox all the way to secular Jews who actually don't believe in God but want to carry on the traditions of Judaism. Most Israelis themselves are quite secular and very Western. There are a few ultra-religious nuts that (similar to the Democrats/Greens) can hold a disproportionate grip on the government.
Simply incorrect. There is nowhere in Zionist theory any mention of annihilating other peoples. The word 'Zionist' is obviously a bit of a red flag to many, all it simply means is a belief that the Jewish homeland is Israel. No more than that (no matter what the UN voted).
[/quote]I have a question for Phantom (only because you seem to have the background)
Don't get me wrong, I have no disrespect for the Jewish people. But I'd like an answer to the following question if you don't mind.
I have heard that in Australia, if a non Jewish moves into a street which is predominately Jewsish, the Jewish will try any way they can to force you out. They consider it their area and their's alone. I've also heard that the Jewish will only trade with their own kind, even if there are competitors in the same area with lower prices.
To the best of your knowledge, do these accusations have merit?[/quote]
Untrue. Certainly in major cities there are Jewish 'areas', often to do with the ability to walk to a synagogue on Sabbath (as orthodox Jews are meant to), not drive. Families grow up in the same area and then live in the same area. But they don't consider it exclusively 'their' area. If anyone tries to force out a non-Jew it is simply wrong to do so, but would be a very rare event. And as far as trading goes, saving money is a universal fact. In most cases I would think that will always win out.
It is possible that in the more ultra-orthodox communities that life in general is more closed to the outside world. But the huge majority of Jews in Western society integrate very well.
[/quote]Once again, no disrespect, but these accusations seem to indicate a lack of willingness to interact with those from other races or religions. It is my experience that those who describe themselves as Aiustralian in this country are the only ones who do tolerate others. I don't care what race or religion my neighbours are and I'll have a drink with anyone anytime. It seems to me that it is those who come here and still identify themselves with their previous country, that like to live amongst their own and refuse to interact with the rest of us. This is not being against the Jewish, Greeks, Italians, Asians and others have their own areas where they live with others they can relate to. Not offically but it is just the same. But hey, that's human nature for you.[/quote]
I'm with you on that. Multiculturalism has a lot to answer for.
[/quote]The Jewish element of my question stems from my perception that the Jewsish tend to look and others as being lesser.[/quote]
I can't agree with that, and don't know how you get that sense.
[/quote]No one has explained the difference between the Jewsish religous texts demanding slaughter of all non believers and any other religous text.[/quote]
That's probably because there aren't any. It's not part of the Jewish religion whatsoever, and if you find someone saying it is, they're wrong.
I'm sorry to say 1eyed, but you're way off the mark with your comments. And without trying to seem like a smart-a** (as you can see I'm a pretty infrequent poster) you really need to do some research into Judaism because what you're saying are the sort of ignorant remarks that lead to intolerance. Also you need to understand the different levels of Judaism, from ultra-Orthodox all the way to secular Jews who actually don't believe in God but want to carry on the traditions of Judaism. Most Israelis themselves are quite secular and very Western. There are a few ultra-religious nuts that (similar to the Democrats/Greens) can hold a disproportionate grip on the government.
1eyedtiger said:
Simply incorrect. There is nowhere in Zionist theory any mention of annihilating other peoples. The word 'Zionist' is obviously a bit of a red flag to many, all it simply means is a belief that the Jewish homeland is Israel. No more than that (no matter what the UN voted).
[/quote]I have a question for Phantom (only because you seem to have the background)
Don't get me wrong, I have no disrespect for the Jewish people. But I'd like an answer to the following question if you don't mind.
I have heard that in Australia, if a non Jewish moves into a street which is predominately Jewsish, the Jewish will try any way they can to force you out. They consider it their area and their's alone. I've also heard that the Jewish will only trade with their own kind, even if there are competitors in the same area with lower prices.
To the best of your knowledge, do these accusations have merit?[/quote]
Untrue. Certainly in major cities there are Jewish 'areas', often to do with the ability to walk to a synagogue on Sabbath (as orthodox Jews are meant to), not drive. Families grow up in the same area and then live in the same area. But they don't consider it exclusively 'their' area. If anyone tries to force out a non-Jew it is simply wrong to do so, but would be a very rare event. And as far as trading goes, saving money is a universal fact. In most cases I would think that will always win out.
It is possible that in the more ultra-orthodox communities that life in general is more closed to the outside world. But the huge majority of Jews in Western society integrate very well.
[/quote]Once again, no disrespect, but these accusations seem to indicate a lack of willingness to interact with those from other races or religions. It is my experience that those who describe themselves as Aiustralian in this country are the only ones who do tolerate others. I don't care what race or religion my neighbours are and I'll have a drink with anyone anytime. It seems to me that it is those who come here and still identify themselves with their previous country, that like to live amongst their own and refuse to interact with the rest of us. This is not being against the Jewish, Greeks, Italians, Asians and others have their own areas where they live with others they can relate to. Not offically but it is just the same. But hey, that's human nature for you.[/quote]
I'm with you on that. Multiculturalism has a lot to answer for.
[/quote]The Jewish element of my question stems from my perception that the Jewsish tend to look and others as being lesser.[/quote]
I can't agree with that, and don't know how you get that sense.
[/quote]No one has explained the difference between the Jewsish religous texts demanding slaughter of all non believers and any other religous text.[/quote]
That's probably because there aren't any. It's not part of the Jewish religion whatsoever, and if you find someone saying it is, they're wrong.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Pack your bags one eyed, we're all heading back to England. ;D
It's not that simple. Best case scenario is that they can operate in peace with what they have.
1eyedtiger said:
Pack your bags one eyed, we're all heading back to England. ;D
It's not that simple. Best case scenario is that they can operate in peace with what they have.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
That's ok bdr,
I might be off the mark but I can only go by what I've been told by others. My mum on the other hand, says that when she was a kid, there was a Jewish couple down the road who she considered to be the nicest people you could meet. Apparently they had the tattoos from the camps so they had been through a lot and also as I've said, there is no excuse for the likes of Hitler.
Like I said, I'm not racist in any way. I'll have a drink with anyone and I don't care what race or religion my neighbours are. I own a dog so it would upset me if my neighbours killed a dog next door and put it on the spit. Everyone has to make allowances. It's no different from keeping the noise down late at night. It's common curtesy.
What the hell is wrong with everyone just getting along and respecting everybody else's beliefs?
That's ok bdr,
I might be off the mark but I can only go by what I've been told by others. My mum on the other hand, says that when she was a kid, there was a Jewish couple down the road who she considered to be the nicest people you could meet. Apparently they had the tattoos from the camps so they had been through a lot and also as I've said, there is no excuse for the likes of Hitler.
Like I said, I'm not racist in any way. I'll have a drink with anyone and I don't care what race or religion my neighbours are. I own a dog so it would upset me if my neighbours killed a dog next door and put it on the spit. Everyone has to make allowances. It's no different from keeping the noise down late at night. It's common curtesy.
What the hell is wrong with everyone just getting along and respecting everybody else's beliefs?
Re: Not Good News From Israel
The difference is that it is untrue.
If it was true, Israel could have nuked them by now or at least used their far superior manpower and equipment to wipe Palestine off the map and kill the whole lot of them.
Has this happened?
No.
On the other hand...the actual existence of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map and to not even recognise it's existence.
There's your difference.
1eyedtiger said:
The difference is that it is untrue.
If it was true, Israel could have nuked them by now or at least used their far superior manpower and equipment to wipe Palestine off the map and kill the whole lot of them.
Has this happened?
No.
On the other hand...the actual existence of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the map and to not even recognise it's existence.
There's your difference.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Absolutely not.
Jews are very happy to see the rest of the world prosper as long as we are left alone to prosper in our own lives.
In fact, the Jewish religion actively discourages anyone else from joining the Jewish religion.
It's harder to get membership to the Jewish religion than it is to get membership to the Melbourne Club.
Slaughter all non-Jews? Why the *smile* would we want that?
1eyedtiger said:
Absolutely not.
Jews are very happy to see the rest of the world prosper as long as we are left alone to prosper in our own lives.
In fact, the Jewish religion actively discourages anyone else from joining the Jewish religion.
It's harder to get membership to the Jewish religion than it is to get membership to the Melbourne Club.
Slaughter all non-Jews? Why the *smile* would we want that?
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