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Palestine and Israel
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Re: Not Good News From Israel
Interesting diagram evo.
I can see why that might annoy the Palestinians just a tad. :
Indeed.
This from wiki..
On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan. The Israelis were subsequently victorious in a series of wars confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, resulting in several major wars
Doesn't seem right to me at all.
Rightly or wrongly you're given something and then you go and take more through violence?
No wonder their neighbours are angry.
evo said:
Interesting diagram evo.
I can see why that might annoy the Palestinians just a tad. :
Panthera tigris FC said:
Indeed.
This from wiki..
On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan. The Israelis were subsequently victorious in a series of wars confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict with many of the neighboring Arab countries, resulting in several major wars
Doesn't seem right to me at all.
Rightly or wrongly you're given something and then you go and take more through violence?
No wonder their neighbours are angry.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Easy.
Israel is a nationality. Much like being an Australian, a New Zealander. A person with Israeli nationality can be Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Christian, Buddhist, etc, in terms of their religion.
The term Jew relates to religion. Much like a Muslim, Druze, Christian, Buddhist, etc. A Jew practises the Jewish religion but can have any nationality depending on where they reside & have citizenship, ie, a Jewish Australian, a Jewish American, or a Jewish Israeli.
The beginning of the Jewish religious story, through the Old Testament, begins with God asking Abraham & his family to follow him on a journey from the city of Haran, near Ur in ancient Babylonia, located in current day southern Iraq, to the land of Milk & Honey in Canaan, west of the Jordan river, modern Israel. This happened around 1700BC. Abraham acquired via contract, according to the Old RTestament, the land in & around Hebron. The generations of Abraham lived there until about 1500BC when they were taken into slavery by the Egyptian Pharaoh but were released through Moses in the Exodus at about 1100BC. This is the wandering in the desert for 40 years, that I sometimes jokingly refer to Richmond FC's time since 1980. The capital of the Jewish Kingdom was Jerusalem, with other areas being Bethel, Shechem, Hebron right up to north of Galilee. This is effectively modern day Israel.
At the same time as the Jews arrive back in Canaan, the Bronze Age Mycenians are pushed out of Greece by foreign invaders and settled in towns like Ashdod, Ascalon & Gaza. This area became Philistia, the people were the Philistines, Goliath was one, and evolved over time to Palestine.
Some Jews like to see themselves as a distinct people, more like an ethnic sub-group of peoples. But you will see for yourself that Jews can be tall & blonde as well as being short & dark. So, in reality, being Jewish is a generational thing where religion is passed on, and the religion is based on a link to the story of Abraham settling in Israel around 1700BC.
I've probably more than answered your question.
Somewhere, lost in the archives of the General Section, I actually did a study of both the Jewish & Arab history.
poppa x said:
Easy.
Israel is a nationality. Much like being an Australian, a New Zealander. A person with Israeli nationality can be Jewish, Muslim, Druze, Christian, Buddhist, etc, in terms of their religion.
The term Jew relates to religion. Much like a Muslim, Druze, Christian, Buddhist, etc. A Jew practises the Jewish religion but can have any nationality depending on where they reside & have citizenship, ie, a Jewish Australian, a Jewish American, or a Jewish Israeli.
The beginning of the Jewish religious story, through the Old Testament, begins with God asking Abraham & his family to follow him on a journey from the city of Haran, near Ur in ancient Babylonia, located in current day southern Iraq, to the land of Milk & Honey in Canaan, west of the Jordan river, modern Israel. This happened around 1700BC. Abraham acquired via contract, according to the Old RTestament, the land in & around Hebron. The generations of Abraham lived there until about 1500BC when they were taken into slavery by the Egyptian Pharaoh but were released through Moses in the Exodus at about 1100BC. This is the wandering in the desert for 40 years, that I sometimes jokingly refer to Richmond FC's time since 1980. The capital of the Jewish Kingdom was Jerusalem, with other areas being Bethel, Shechem, Hebron right up to north of Galilee. This is effectively modern day Israel.
At the same time as the Jews arrive back in Canaan, the Bronze Age Mycenians are pushed out of Greece by foreign invaders and settled in towns like Ashdod, Ascalon & Gaza. This area became Philistia, the people were the Philistines, Goliath was one, and evolved over time to Palestine.
Some Jews like to see themselves as a distinct people, more like an ethnic sub-group of peoples. But you will see for yourself that Jews can be tall & blonde as well as being short & dark. So, in reality, being Jewish is a generational thing where religion is passed on, and the religion is based on a link to the story of Abraham settling in Israel around 1700BC.
I've probably more than answered your question.
Somewhere, lost in the archives of the General Section, I actually did a study of both the Jewish & Arab history.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
There were several options for a Jewish homeland before and up to the Balfour Declaration of 1916/17.
But it was decided that the Jewish homeland should be the area to which the Jewish people had a spiritual connection since 1700BC, the ancient land of Canaan, modern day Israel.
Personally I would have much preferrred the Sussex coast of England. Would have meant a short train ride in to both Lords & The Oval. Even I might have been tempted to join the Jewish homeland if it had been located there.
Tigers of Old said:
There were several options for a Jewish homeland before and up to the Balfour Declaration of 1916/17.
But it was decided that the Jewish homeland should be the area to which the Jewish people had a spiritual connection since 1700BC, the ancient land of Canaan, modern day Israel.
Personally I would have much preferrred the Sussex coast of England. Would have meant a short train ride in to both Lords & The Oval. Even I might have been tempted to join the Jewish homeland if it had been located there.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Most Jewish people would like there to be an Israeli nation that could live in harmony with the Arab nations around it.
We respect that the Arab people have existed over the entire Arab lands - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.
We also respect that several distinct & separate peoples such as the Phoenicians, the Philistines & others actually broke down as distinct groups and assimilated and merged with the Arab people. The Arab peoples only became Muslims around 700AD, when Islam was created.
We also believe that Arabs should respect that Jews have resided in the area of modern Israel from 1700BC to the expulsion of the Roman exile around 200AD. Even then, there were still Jews living in the land right through until the creation of the modern Israel in 1948.
How do I know this? Because my paternal grandmother's family lived in a town on the coast near the port of Haifa. And in my grandmother's family, the men were Rabbis in the synagogue there for generations, for centuries upon centuries.
And there were many others besides my paternal grandmother's family.
My grandmother emigrated from Israel, via Cyprus, to Melbourne, Australia around 1910, aged around 15. Like many such Greek, Pontian, Turkish & Russian girls at that time, she was a postcard bride, if that's the term.
When she arrived, she was matched to the son of an emigrated Russian Jewish Australian dairy farmer, whose property consisted of the modern suburbs of Doncaster-Templestowe, and he had a dairy in McPherson St, Carlton. But that's another story.
So to say that the Jews weren't there before the 20th century is not true.
I'm not so sure if you sought the view of an Arab that they would like there to be an Israeli nation that could live in harmony with the Arab nations around it.
Most Jewish people would like there to be an Israeli nation that could live in harmony with the Arab nations around it.
We respect that the Arab people have existed over the entire Arab lands - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.
We also respect that several distinct & separate peoples such as the Phoenicians, the Philistines & others actually broke down as distinct groups and assimilated and merged with the Arab people. The Arab peoples only became Muslims around 700AD, when Islam was created.
We also believe that Arabs should respect that Jews have resided in the area of modern Israel from 1700BC to the expulsion of the Roman exile around 200AD. Even then, there were still Jews living in the land right through until the creation of the modern Israel in 1948.
How do I know this? Because my paternal grandmother's family lived in a town on the coast near the port of Haifa. And in my grandmother's family, the men were Rabbis in the synagogue there for generations, for centuries upon centuries.
And there were many others besides my paternal grandmother's family.
My grandmother emigrated from Israel, via Cyprus, to Melbourne, Australia around 1910, aged around 15. Like many such Greek, Pontian, Turkish & Russian girls at that time, she was a postcard bride, if that's the term.
When she arrived, she was matched to the son of an emigrated Russian Jewish Australian dairy farmer, whose property consisted of the modern suburbs of Doncaster-Templestowe, and he had a dairy in McPherson St, Carlton. But that's another story.
So to say that the Jews weren't there before the 20th century is not true.
I'm not so sure if you sought the view of an Arab that they would like there to be an Israeli nation that could live in harmony with the Arab nations around it.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
I've seen that argument proffered quite a bit ovber the years.Lets face it,they were never going to settle anywhere but Israel,be honest.
If the current site is so trivial that the 'chosen ones' would've been just as happy to settle in east Britain then they should hand over the wailing wall and the rest of Jeruselum as a sign of good will.
I've seen that argument proffered quite a bit ovber the years.Lets face it,they were never going to settle anywhere but Israel,be honest.
If the current site is so trivial that the 'chosen ones' would've been just as happy to settle in east Britain then they should hand over the wailing wall and the rest of Jeruselum as a sign of good will.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
This is right.
The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism since ancient times and the heartland of the ancient Kingdom of Judah to which modern Jews are usually attributed.
Caufield & Surfers Paradise obviously don't hold quite the same value to the Jews. There is a clear reason why so many chose to go where they are now.
What I don't get is why the United Nations decided to set up a country for a religion?
Was it simply because the Jews migrated to Palestine en masse after the Holocaust?
Why couldn't the Jews live in peace with the Palestinians then? What entitled them to their own country?
If they had of, it seems to me that a lot of this conflict would have been avoided.
evo said:
This is right.
The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism since ancient times and the heartland of the ancient Kingdom of Judah to which modern Jews are usually attributed.
Caufield & Surfers Paradise obviously don't hold quite the same value to the Jews. There is a clear reason why so many chose to go where they are now.
What I don't get is why the United Nations decided to set up a country for a religion?
Was it simply because the Jews migrated to Palestine en masse after the Holocaust?
Why couldn't the Jews live in peace with the Palestinians then? What entitled them to their own country?
If they had of, it seems to me that a lot of this conflict would have been avoided.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
As I previously posted.
True, but these are highly prized by Melbournian Jewry.
It recognised a country for a people with a common bond & culture.
The UN didn't create Israel. The Jews created it for themselves.
The UN merely recognised it.
One of the major problems in Africa is that national borders can sometimes artificially bond two opposing peoples together with ensuing violence. African nationalism is one of UN's repeated tragedies.
The Jews had begun returning to the Israeli area from the 19th century as a result of the surge in Nationalism in Europe then.
But it was truly en masse after the Holocaust.
Jews did live in peace with the Palestinians.
Prior to WW1, they lived together under Ottomon rule.
Post 1946, the Jews in Israel were at war with the British Mandate.
When the British withdrew in 1947 a vacuum occurred.
Unfortunately the Palestinians didn't want to live in peace with the Jews.
That's when the massacres of Jewish settlers in Palestine began.
The Jews realised that they had to fight if they were to survive.
The result was a Jewish state in 1948.
The UN recognised it only after the Jews had taken it for themselves.
No.
Because fundamentally the Palestinians don't want to live in peace with the Jews, nor anyone else.
Lebanon is a great example.
In the 1950s, under Christian government, Beirut was one of the Meditteraneans great cities and Lebanon was a great country.
Since the Lenanese Civil War and with the Palestinians taking over there, with Syrian assistance, the Christians have all been massacred or expelled and the country is now a ruin.
Currently, under an Israeli state, Jerusalem is open to Jews, Christians, Muslims and many others. Churches from all religions abound there.
That could not be guaranteed if the Palestinians controlled Jerusalem.
It certainly didn't happen for nearly all of the Muslim rule of the 2nd millenium. ie. 1000-2000AD.
Tigers of Old said:
As I previously posted.
True, but these are highly prized by Melbournian Jewry.
It recognised a country for a people with a common bond & culture.
The UN didn't create Israel. The Jews created it for themselves.
The UN merely recognised it.
One of the major problems in Africa is that national borders can sometimes artificially bond two opposing peoples together with ensuing violence. African nationalism is one of UN's repeated tragedies.
The Jews had begun returning to the Israeli area from the 19th century as a result of the surge in Nationalism in Europe then.
But it was truly en masse after the Holocaust.
Jews did live in peace with the Palestinians.
Prior to WW1, they lived together under Ottomon rule.
Post 1946, the Jews in Israel were at war with the British Mandate.
When the British withdrew in 1947 a vacuum occurred.
Unfortunately the Palestinians didn't want to live in peace with the Jews.
That's when the massacres of Jewish settlers in Palestine began.
The Jews realised that they had to fight if they were to survive.
The result was a Jewish state in 1948.
The UN recognised it only after the Jews had taken it for themselves.
No.
Because fundamentally the Palestinians don't want to live in peace with the Jews, nor anyone else.
Lebanon is a great example.
In the 1950s, under Christian government, Beirut was one of the Meditteraneans great cities and Lebanon was a great country.
Since the Lenanese Civil War and with the Palestinians taking over there, with Syrian assistance, the Christians have all been massacred or expelled and the country is now a ruin.
Currently, under an Israeli state, Jerusalem is open to Jews, Christians, Muslims and many others. Churches from all religions abound there.
That could not be guaranteed if the Palestinians controlled Jerusalem.
It certainly didn't happen for nearly all of the Muslim rule of the 2nd millenium. ie. 1000-2000AD.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Lebanon rockets fired into Israel
Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem, January 9, 2009
ISRAELI fears of a war on two fronts intensified last night after missiles were fired at the country from Lebanon, wounding two people.
Up to five Katyusha rockets struck northern Israel around 7.30am local time on Thursday, with one exploding beside a nursing home in the coastal city of Nahariya.
The Israel Defence Forces quickly responded, using artillery to hit the area from which the rockets were launched.
A military source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, confirmed to The Age that between three and five rockets had landed in Israel.
"It appears that they were military-grade Katyusha-style rockets," the official said.
A Lebanese army spokesman said: "Between two and three rockets were fired from southern Lebanon. Israel retaliated with five or six rockets."
Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak said while visiting an army base in the south that "we are following events in the north, we are alert and will know how to respond".
No group claimed responsibility for the salvo, and the radical Islamic Hezbollah movement indicated it was not responsible for the attack.
Lebanese Information Minister Tarek Mitri said: "Hezbollah has assured us that they remain committed to stability and Resolution 1701 (the UN resolution that brought an end to the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah) and that is a euphemism for saying they are not involved."
Officials in Lebanon representing the two main Palestinian factions, Hamas and Fatah, both denied that their movements were behind the missiles.
In a speech on Wednesday, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah threatened the prospect of a renewed conflict.
"We have to act as though all possibilities are real and open (against Israel) and we must always be ready for any eventuality," Sheikh Nasrallah said.
It marked the first time Sheikh Nasrallah had spoken openly on the possibility of a renewed conflict with Israel since the war in Gaza began on December 27.
Addressing tens of thousands of supporters via video link at his stronghold in Beirut's suburbs, he said the 2006 conflict would be nothing compared with what awaited Israel if it opened a second front. "I say to (Israeli Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert, the loser, the vanquished in Lebanon, that you cannot overcome Hamas or Hezbollah," he said.
"Your 2006 war will be a walk in the park compared to what we have prepared for in the event of a new offensive. We are ready to sacrifice our souls, our brothers and sisters, our children ... or what we believe in."
The head of the Shlomi Regional Council in northern Israel, Gabi Naaman, told Israeli TV last night that residents had been told to open their bomb shelters and schools had been closed. Israeli security cabinet member Shalom Simhon also told Israeli media last night that ministers knew organisations in Lebanon had intended to launch rocket attacks in solidarity with Hamas in Gaza.
"We knew almost precisely it would be yesterday or today," he said. "We took into account that there would be an attempt at showing solidarity with the Palestinian organisations."
Lebanese security sources reported that schools in south Lebanon had been closed due to fears of Israeli reprisals.
Israeli intelligence officials had warned about possible rocket attacks from Lebanon before Israel's offensive in Gaza. In recent days, the IDF had raised its alert level on the northern front, based on information that the warnings would be realised.
The Israeli military official refused to comment on who might have been responsible for the rocket attacks. Although southern Lebanon is controlled by Hezbollah, there are several large Palestinian refugee camps in the area that are home to militant Palestinian groups.
"The area where the rockets were fired from appears to be close to a Palestinian refugee camp," the military source said.
Since the conclusion of Israel's 2006 war with Hezbollah in Lebanon, there have been at least two rocket attacks on Israel believed to have been launched by Palestinian militants rather than Hezbollah.
If yesterday's attacks were launched by Palestinian militants, it is unlikely they were launched without the knowledge of Hezbollah warlords.
In July 2006 Hezbollah used a missile attack on Israel to create a diversion while it launched a raid against an IDF border patrol unit. Three Israeli soldiers were killed and two captured.
Israel responded with massive artillery strikes, starting a 33-day conflict.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/lebanon-rockets-fired-into-israel-20090108-7cvt.html?page=-1
Lebanon rockets fired into Israel
Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem, January 9, 2009
ISRAELI fears of a war on two fronts intensified last night after missiles were fired at the country from Lebanon, wounding two people.
Up to five Katyusha rockets struck northern Israel around 7.30am local time on Thursday, with one exploding beside a nursing home in the coastal city of Nahariya.
The Israel Defence Forces quickly responded, using artillery to hit the area from which the rockets were launched.
A military source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, confirmed to The Age that between three and five rockets had landed in Israel.
"It appears that they were military-grade Katyusha-style rockets," the official said.
A Lebanese army spokesman said: "Between two and three rockets were fired from southern Lebanon. Israel retaliated with five or six rockets."
Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak said while visiting an army base in the south that "we are following events in the north, we are alert and will know how to respond".
No group claimed responsibility for the salvo, and the radical Islamic Hezbollah movement indicated it was not responsible for the attack.
Lebanese Information Minister Tarek Mitri said: "Hezbollah has assured us that they remain committed to stability and Resolution 1701 (the UN resolution that brought an end to the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah) and that is a euphemism for saying they are not involved."
Officials in Lebanon representing the two main Palestinian factions, Hamas and Fatah, both denied that their movements were behind the missiles.
In a speech on Wednesday, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah threatened the prospect of a renewed conflict.
"We have to act as though all possibilities are real and open (against Israel) and we must always be ready for any eventuality," Sheikh Nasrallah said.
It marked the first time Sheikh Nasrallah had spoken openly on the possibility of a renewed conflict with Israel since the war in Gaza began on December 27.
Addressing tens of thousands of supporters via video link at his stronghold in Beirut's suburbs, he said the 2006 conflict would be nothing compared with what awaited Israel if it opened a second front. "I say to (Israeli Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert, the loser, the vanquished in Lebanon, that you cannot overcome Hamas or Hezbollah," he said.
"Your 2006 war will be a walk in the park compared to what we have prepared for in the event of a new offensive. We are ready to sacrifice our souls, our brothers and sisters, our children ... or what we believe in."
The head of the Shlomi Regional Council in northern Israel, Gabi Naaman, told Israeli TV last night that residents had been told to open their bomb shelters and schools had been closed. Israeli security cabinet member Shalom Simhon also told Israeli media last night that ministers knew organisations in Lebanon had intended to launch rocket attacks in solidarity with Hamas in Gaza.
"We knew almost precisely it would be yesterday or today," he said. "We took into account that there would be an attempt at showing solidarity with the Palestinian organisations."
Lebanese security sources reported that schools in south Lebanon had been closed due to fears of Israeli reprisals.
Israeli intelligence officials had warned about possible rocket attacks from Lebanon before Israel's offensive in Gaza. In recent days, the IDF had raised its alert level on the northern front, based on information that the warnings would be realised.
The Israeli military official refused to comment on who might have been responsible for the rocket attacks. Although southern Lebanon is controlled by Hezbollah, there are several large Palestinian refugee camps in the area that are home to militant Palestinian groups.
"The area where the rockets were fired from appears to be close to a Palestinian refugee camp," the military source said.
Since the conclusion of Israel's 2006 war with Hezbollah in Lebanon, there have been at least two rocket attacks on Israel believed to have been launched by Palestinian militants rather than Hezbollah.
If yesterday's attacks were launched by Palestinian militants, it is unlikely they were launched without the knowledge of Hezbollah warlords.
In July 2006 Hezbollah used a missile attack on Israel to create a diversion while it launched a raid against an IDF border patrol unit. Three Israeli soldiers were killed and two captured.
Israel responded with massive artillery strikes, starting a 33-day conflict.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/lebanon-rockets-fired-into-israel-20090108-7cvt.html?page=-1
Re: Not Good News From Israel
A famous quote from that great lady, Golda Meir.
"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children.
We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children.
We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
A famous quote from that great lady, Golda Meir.
"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children.
We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children.
We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
Re: Not Good News From Israel
I guess they lived peacefully with the Jews when they were a minority but this is this exactly why we have such stringent immigration policies these days.
Can you imagine a similar mass influx of another religious group coming into Australia in such similar circumstances?
Of course the Palestinians weren't happy that their country rapidly became a settling group for hundreds of thousands of Jewish people and all that comes with such an influx of a vastly different race of people.
It was a disaster waiting to happen and given all this only happened a generation ago, that tension still runs very deep.
Phantom said:
Phantom said:
I guess they lived peacefully with the Jews when they were a minority but this is this exactly why we have such stringent immigration policies these days.
Can you imagine a similar mass influx of another religious group coming into Australia in such similar circumstances?
Of course the Palestinians weren't happy that their country rapidly became a settling group for hundreds of thousands of Jewish people and all that comes with such an influx of a vastly different race of people.
It was a disaster waiting to happen and given all this only happened a generation ago, that tension still runs very deep.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
That is a broad generalisation that does not accurately reflect Muslim rule in those times, especially ottoman turk rule. The ottomans were one of the more tolerant rulers when it came to other religions in that time. They were more concerned with wealth and collecting taxes, and tolerated all religions. Sure, converting to Islam gave you more priveliges, but, in the context of those times, their subjects were free to practice any religion. Don't forget the Ottomans took in the Sephardic Jews and allowed them to settle in Salonika when the rest of Europe shunned them.
Phantom said:
That is a broad generalisation that does not accurately reflect Muslim rule in those times, especially ottoman turk rule. The ottomans were one of the more tolerant rulers when it came to other religions in that time. They were more concerned with wealth and collecting taxes, and tolerated all religions. Sure, converting to Islam gave you more priveliges, but, in the context of those times, their subjects were free to practice any religion. Don't forget the Ottomans took in the Sephardic Jews and allowed them to settle in Salonika when the rest of Europe shunned them.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
That's true.
There were brief flashes of tolerance during that time. Saladin & Suleiman were noted examples of tolerant leaders. It is no coincidence that they also happen to be the two most glorified leaders of the Middle East during that time.
Saladin was a Sunni Muslim from around Syria. He is famous for taking back Jerusalem from the Crusaders and his battles with Richard the Lionheart during the 3rd Crusade.
It was Saladin who negotiated with Richard a truce that saw access for all Christians to Jerusalem's churches.
Sulieman, known as The Magnificent, arrived about 300 years later. His focus was the Balkans and expanded the Ottoman Empire to the gates of Vienna. His time co-incided with the early stages of the Spanish Inquisition, and took the opportunity to welcome most of Spain's Jewish middle-class to strengthen trade.
Unfortunately, for that 1,000 years of Ayyubid & Ottoman rule, you can count the number of tolerant and competent Arab/Turkish leaders on one hand. It wasn't long after Suleiman was assasinated that the Ottoman Empire fell into the bureaucracy of the Janissaries (civil servants). The Sultanate of the Harem is one of the Ottoman Empire's more comic moments.
Jews will never forget how the Catholic Church has treated them.
Catholic scripture has openly blamed the Jewish people as a whole for the killing of the Christ.
From the time that the English Catholics massacred the Jews of York by locking them all inside the synagogue and burning them alive. To the Spanish Inquisition. Through to the Vatican actively assisting Hitler round up the Jews of Europe.
Mind you, there was one Catholic exception - Mussolini - who said we don't have Jews in Italy, only Italians. Unfortunately the Vatican had other ideas.
And many other notorious episodes in between.
I believe it was only a handful of years ago that the Vatican apologised for its crimes over millenia against the Jews.
S.D. said:
That's true.
There were brief flashes of tolerance during that time. Saladin & Suleiman were noted examples of tolerant leaders. It is no coincidence that they also happen to be the two most glorified leaders of the Middle East during that time.
Saladin was a Sunni Muslim from around Syria. He is famous for taking back Jerusalem from the Crusaders and his battles with Richard the Lionheart during the 3rd Crusade.
It was Saladin who negotiated with Richard a truce that saw access for all Christians to Jerusalem's churches.
Sulieman, known as The Magnificent, arrived about 300 years later. His focus was the Balkans and expanded the Ottoman Empire to the gates of Vienna. His time co-incided with the early stages of the Spanish Inquisition, and took the opportunity to welcome most of Spain's Jewish middle-class to strengthen trade.
Unfortunately, for that 1,000 years of Ayyubid & Ottoman rule, you can count the number of tolerant and competent Arab/Turkish leaders on one hand. It wasn't long after Suleiman was assasinated that the Ottoman Empire fell into the bureaucracy of the Janissaries (civil servants). The Sultanate of the Harem is one of the Ottoman Empire's more comic moments.
Jews will never forget how the Catholic Church has treated them.
Catholic scripture has openly blamed the Jewish people as a whole for the killing of the Christ.
From the time that the English Catholics massacred the Jews of York by locking them all inside the synagogue and burning them alive. To the Spanish Inquisition. Through to the Vatican actively assisting Hitler round up the Jews of Europe.
Mind you, there was one Catholic exception - Mussolini - who said we don't have Jews in Italy, only Italians. Unfortunately the Vatican had other ideas.
And many other notorious episodes in between.
I believe it was only a handful of years ago that the Vatican apologised for its crimes over millenia against the Jews.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Let me just qualify the comments of my last post.
It is with great appreciation that over the millenia there were great Jewish communities that developed & prospered in Arab lands. The Jewish communities in Babylon, Yemen, Cairo & Istanbul, et al, indicate an era of great tolerance by the Ottoman Turks & the Arab people.
It is with great disappointment since the Arabs have gained self-rule since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1918 that the persecution, expulsion & destruction of the Jewish communities in these centres have occured.
People fail to realise that Israel has also become a home to many tens of thousands of expelled Jews from the various Arab/Muslim nations in the Middle East, Asia & Africa.
The population of Israel has increased because these expelled Jews from Arab lands needed to be resettled, just as in the case in Europe after WW2.
But Jews have not been the only victims of intolerance.
In Europe we know that the Gypsies almost disappeared from existance too.
Also, in & around Turkey, the Pontic Greeks were massacred & expelled. Many of which came to eventually settle in Melbourne Australia after WW1.
Also, the Armenian Christians were massacred in their 100s of thousands during WW1.
This was all a part of the new Nationalism that occured in the 19th/20th century.
The positive aspect of this was that the Jews were also affected by this Nationalistic zeal.
For them, this centred on a notion of Zionism, a homeland for the Jewish people.
And this Zionism was centred on the lands of ancient Israel, the kingdom of David.
This notion subsequently resulted in the Balfour declaration, the en masse migrations to Israel around WW2, and the eventual recognition by the UN of Israel, once the Jews had taken possession of it for themselves.
We remember, again, that:
1. The first country to recognise the State of Israel was the Soviet Union.
2. The retired British General Orde Wingate, of Chindits fame, actually trained the first Israeli defence units.
3. That Chancellor Von Strauss, of Bavaria, provided the finance & arms that Israel so desperate needed in those fist few years post-WW2.
Let me just qualify the comments of my last post.
It is with great appreciation that over the millenia there were great Jewish communities that developed & prospered in Arab lands. The Jewish communities in Babylon, Yemen, Cairo & Istanbul, et al, indicate an era of great tolerance by the Ottoman Turks & the Arab people.
It is with great disappointment since the Arabs have gained self-rule since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1918 that the persecution, expulsion & destruction of the Jewish communities in these centres have occured.
People fail to realise that Israel has also become a home to many tens of thousands of expelled Jews from the various Arab/Muslim nations in the Middle East, Asia & Africa.
The population of Israel has increased because these expelled Jews from Arab lands needed to be resettled, just as in the case in Europe after WW2.
But Jews have not been the only victims of intolerance.
In Europe we know that the Gypsies almost disappeared from existance too.
Also, in & around Turkey, the Pontic Greeks were massacred & expelled. Many of which came to eventually settle in Melbourne Australia after WW1.
Also, the Armenian Christians were massacred in their 100s of thousands during WW1.
This was all a part of the new Nationalism that occured in the 19th/20th century.
The positive aspect of this was that the Jews were also affected by this Nationalistic zeal.
For them, this centred on a notion of Zionism, a homeland for the Jewish people.
And this Zionism was centred on the lands of ancient Israel, the kingdom of David.
This notion subsequently resulted in the Balfour declaration, the en masse migrations to Israel around WW2, and the eventual recognition by the UN of Israel, once the Jews had taken possession of it for themselves.
We remember, again, that:
1. The first country to recognise the State of Israel was the Soviet Union.
2. The retired British General Orde Wingate, of Chindits fame, actually trained the first Israeli defence units.
3. That Chancellor Von Strauss, of Bavaria, provided the finance & arms that Israel so desperate needed in those fist few years post-WW2.
Re: Not Good News From Israel
Thanks Phantom.
If it's not too much trouble, could you please answer this question.
After WW2 many Jews understandably settled in Palestine. Many also settled in Western Countries, including Australia.
I dated the daughter of a holocaust survivor whose family settled in Canada.
Why would they choose not to settle in Palestine, an area they regard as their spiritual home?
Thanks Phantom.
If it's not too much trouble, could you please answer this question.
After WW2 many Jews understandably settled in Palestine. Many also settled in Western Countries, including Australia.
I dated the daughter of a holocaust survivor whose family settled in Canada.
Why would they choose not to settle in Palestine, an area they regard as their spiritual home?
Re: Not Good News From Israel
thats news to me phantom.
you ever been to lebanon? ever been to the north of Lebanon and northern Beirut where christians live in peace with muslims and druze? ever been to great christian cities like Junei and tripoli. or seen the westernised christian suburbs of Beirut like Achrafieh, Kaslik, Verdun where you could be mistaken for thinking you were in Monte Carlo?
Last time i checked too the pesident is still Christian and the prime minister a Muslim. still have sunni and shi'ite as well as druze ministers of parliament. hardly the mess you make it out to be
and lebanon is hardly a ruin. i would know ive been there recently. i doubt you have
Phantom said:
thats news to me phantom.
you ever been to lebanon? ever been to the north of Lebanon and northern Beirut where christians live in peace with muslims and druze? ever been to great christian cities like Junei and tripoli. or seen the westernised christian suburbs of Beirut like Achrafieh, Kaslik, Verdun where you could be mistaken for thinking you were in Monte Carlo?
Last time i checked too the pesident is still Christian and the prime minister a Muslim. still have sunni and shi'ite as well as druze ministers of parliament. hardly the mess you make it out to be
and lebanon is hardly a ruin. i would know ive been there recently. i doubt you have
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